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On February 10 2021 23:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2021 18:42 Simberto wrote:On February 10 2021 18:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 10 2021 17:59 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 16:26 Erasme wrote:On February 10 2021 05:38 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 05:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 10 2021 04:53 Zambrah wrote:
Yeah I think the MAGA violence stuff is going to have to be tamped out hard to be prevented, imo I think it should start by removing from all forms of power the people who act as figureheads for the movement in Congress like Ted Cruz. From there, rub Republicans noses in the insurrection at the US Capitol over and over, rub their noses in the eventual voting-not-to-impeach-Trump that they're probably going to do, and have a very aggressive agenda that brings more equality to the poor and disenfranchised people in the US. Huge government job creation for renewal energy, job training, minimum wage increase ASAP (15 is the barest assed minimum too, it should be closer to 20 or 25) and taxing the hell out of the rich. Make America at least look like it works for someone other than it's richest class.
Oh, and throw universal healthcare in there. My theory is Trump seems cools to people who peaked in high school at the latest. They remember America as great then, and the cool kids were big, dumb , loud and bullies. They could just pull a Trump and call them 'the terrorist party' every time they refer to Republicans for the next few years. Something akin to that, can’t just be that though, I think you’re going to need to give a lot of Democrats reason to be enthusiastic beyond Republicans Bad to make sure there aren’t any nasty fascy surprises, imo. It wouldnt' be wise. If the democrats start targeting the republicans as a block, they will solidify it instead of fracturing it. I partially agree, this would probably cause some solidification within the Republican ranks, I think this aggression would probably shave off some of the extremely conscious Republican voters though, and I think thats enough given how slim margins are in elections in this country. Overall though, I dont really even believe Republicans are capable of splitting in half or anything that we might be hoping for, I think we're looking at maybe 10% of Republican voters vote elsewhere or just don't vote. The rest I do anticipate being a bite-down-and-vote-for-the-Not-Democrat. Obviously thats not particularly safe in it's own right, a single Hillary Clinton vs. Charismatic Fascist can still 100% occur in that case, but thats why I believe Democrats have to make them look worth voting for. Their voting base isn't as rock-steady as the Republicans, they cant coast by on "other guy so bad  (" they have to actively appear to be fighting for the good of their constituents and preferably keep every conversation about stuff like means testing during a pandemic either entirely private so that they don't look like they're trying to nickel and dime the American public, or entirely public so the public knows who to attack for trying to nickel and dime them. Use good will to get people to go Georgia on elections, let talented popular people rise up instead of quashing them beneath a prepicked candidate. Play the game smart, be popular, let the Republicans wither and die under a popular Democrats, imo. For the life of me I don't understand how a rambling old man with the vocabulary of a 12 year old that can't put a coherent thought together is considered charismatic. The appeal of Trump is something i have never sufficiently figured out myself. He is a vile, uncharismatic buffoon with no redeeming qualities. I think that in this case, the problem is a future version of this event where instead of Trump, you have an actually competent, charismatic fascist. And it is really scary how possible this sounds right now. Trumps presidency has shown that the US could drop into fascism far easier than previously thought, and that large parts of the population would be totally fine with that. My theory is that it is people who peaked at no later than high school who think he's got charisma. So they remember when big dumb, loud, bullies were cool and sincebthisnis when they peaked, this is also when they think murica used to be "great".
Well, I think it says something about many people's values that they see Trump as manly, strong and "someone who tells it as it is".
It also emphasizes a general crisis of the concept of concepts of virility, of strength and of authenticity in american society.
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The thing with Trump isn't about him being charismatic, I doubt most his voters at least initially wanted him in their life. Hell I know some people who found him mostly amusing and tried to justify to themselves that they were going to vote for him because they always voted conservative and their point was mostly "he's not as bad as the media depicts him". Which is somewhat fair, because media sells by blowing stuff up and citing people out of context has become the sad norm, it's just not specific to Trump at all.
His charm comes from what he opposes. Typical politicians run in circles around unpleasant questions and criticism, which makes the voters feel bullshitted and looked down upon. The goal is to hide the incompetence and look in control, but it's been done so much that everyone knows it's bullshit by now and it makes politicians look dishonest and arrogant. That real wages have only slowly risen especially for low earners since they fell of cliffs in the later 70s and early 80s while Reps and Dems alternate with revoking the other's interior policies doesn't increase the trust of voters that change will come without shaking up the board.
Trump on the other hand doesn't minces words and simply can't say ten sentences that sound nice but are just dodging the question. When he's asked something he'll give a fairly short direct answer and if he feels that the question is in bad faith/criticism him he's calling people names. He is acting so obviously bad that nobody would think that he's putting on a mask for the camera. He's giving his thoughts even when it's really obviously that he's an idiot that wants to try injecting disinfectant into people, but that makes him look honest, so people are more willing to believe that he's somewhat serious about the policies he promised. And things like limiting immigration and imports from low wage countries are easy to sell to the lower class, because it means limiting their competition.
Trump getting voted is mostly a sign of the fact that a lot of people lost all trust into conventional politicians and that his large roadblocks 2016 looked weak, arrogant and incompetent didn't help at all.
Honestly I would prefer it if politicians talked more what they think or were more honest about their limits of knowledge, if they just could be somewhat competent and integer.
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Norway28712 Posts
Meh, I have no problems seeing how Trump can be considered charismatic. He can be funny. (Stories about him + kelly joking about Kim Yong Un hitting on Huckabee Sanders were him being genuinely funny. )
He's also good at giving people compliments - and people really latch on to compliments given by celebrities / people who are in any way authorities. A lot of people report that he's charming in smaller settings. And he is genuinely very gifted in terms of playing / controlling a large crowd.
None of this is a defense of Trump the politician - he's also extremely undisciplined, doesn't read, doesn't prepare, is massively ignorant about a whole lot of stuff - and that's before addressing that he's also somewhere between a totally amoral and a genuinely evil person. But like - while I absolutely have a hard time understanding why and how he has gotten the amount of support he has gotten - as a politician - it's not like I thought it was particularly weird that people found him entertaining when he was just a television host and general celebrity.
I also think the lack of discipline is part of the appeal, in a way, and I think it's very hard to find someone who both shares Trump's talent in terms of crowd and media control but who also happens to be a really disciplined and hard worker (and thus competent). Imo, the crowd control and media performances are related to having an improvisational nature/personality - a personality that tends to be cultivated from having a lack of discipline and structure in the first place.
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United States43255 Posts
Trump’s ignorance is also reassuring to ignorant voters. He tells his supporters that the world is extremely simple and that their idiotic opinions are right. He tells people that terrorism is a simple problem that would be fixed if the bleeding heart liberals had the guts to kill civilians, that border control is as simple as a wall, that pandemics aren’t real, and so forth. We live in a scary complicated world where people are threatened by problems they don’t understand and Trump makes it safe. If you’re seeing economic instability from changing global macroeconomic forces it’s not at all comforting to see an economist lecturing using numbers you don’t understand, it’s comforting to see someone say that a Chinese person stole your stability but they have a plan to steal it back. It’s why there’s such a big crossover between the Trump cult and other cults (millenarian Christianity, deep staters, Elders of Zion believers etc.).
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On February 11 2021 00:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Meh, I have no problems seeing how Trump can be considered charismatic. He can be funny. (Stories about him + kelly joking about Kim Yong Un hitting on Huckabee Sanders were him being genuinely funny. )
He's also good at giving people compliments - and people really latch on to compliments given by celebrities / people who are in any way authorities. A lot of people report that he's charming in smaller settings. And he is genuinely very gifted in terms of playing / controlling a large crowd.
None of this is a defense of Trump the politician - he's also extremely undisciplined, doesn't read, doesn't prepare, is massively ignorant about a whole lot of stuff - and that's before addressing that he's also somewhere between a totally amoral and a genuinely evil person. But like - while I absolutely have a hard time understanding why and how he has gotten the amount of support he has gotten - as a politician - it's not like I thought it was particularly weird that people found him entertaining when he was just a television host and general celebrity.
I also think the lack of discipline is part of the appeal, in a way, and I think it's very hard to find someone who both shares Trump's talent in terms of crowd and media control but who also happens to be a really disciplined and hard worker (and thus competent). Imo, the crowd control and media performances are related to having an improvisational nature/personality - a personality that tends to be cultivated from having a lack of discipline and structure in the first place.
Boris Johnson?
On February 11 2021 01:13 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2021 01:10 Artisreal wrote:On February 11 2021 00:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Meh, I have no problems seeing how Trump can be considered charismatic. He can be funny. (Stories about him + kelly joking about Kim Yong Un hitting on Huckabee Sanders were him being genuinely funny. )
He's also good at giving people compliments - and people really latch on to compliments given by celebrities / people who are in any way authorities. A lot of people report that he's charming in smaller settings. And he is genuinely very gifted in terms of playing / controlling a large crowd.
None of this is a defense of Trump the politician - he's also extremely undisciplined, doesn't read, doesn't prepare, is massively ignorant about a whole lot of stuff - and that's before addressing that he's also somewhere between a totally amoral and a genuinely evil person. But like - while I absolutely have a hard time understanding why and how he has gotten the amount of support he has gotten - as a politician - it's not like I thought it was particularly weird that people found him entertaining when he was just a television host and general celebrity.
I also think the lack of discipline is part of the appeal, in a way, and I think it's very hard to find someone who both shares Trump's talent in terms of crowd and media control but who also happens to be a really disciplined and hard worker (and thus competent). Imo, the crowd control and media performances are related to having an improvisational nature/personality - a personality that tends to be cultivated from having a lack of discipline and structure in the first place. Boris Johnson? Infamously lazy, from what I've read. More competent than Trump isn't competent.
Fair enough. :D
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On February 11 2021 01:10 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2021 00:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Meh, I have no problems seeing how Trump can be considered charismatic. He can be funny. (Stories about him + kelly joking about Kim Yong Un hitting on Huckabee Sanders were him being genuinely funny. )
He's also good at giving people compliments - and people really latch on to compliments given by celebrities / people who are in any way authorities. A lot of people report that he's charming in smaller settings. And he is genuinely very gifted in terms of playing / controlling a large crowd.
None of this is a defense of Trump the politician - he's also extremely undisciplined, doesn't read, doesn't prepare, is massively ignorant about a whole lot of stuff - and that's before addressing that he's also somewhere between a totally amoral and a genuinely evil person. But like - while I absolutely have a hard time understanding why and how he has gotten the amount of support he has gotten - as a politician - it's not like I thought it was particularly weird that people found him entertaining when he was just a television host and general celebrity.
I also think the lack of discipline is part of the appeal, in a way, and I think it's very hard to find someone who both shares Trump's talent in terms of crowd and media control but who also happens to be a really disciplined and hard worker (and thus competent). Imo, the crowd control and media performances are related to having an improvisational nature/personality - a personality that tends to be cultivated from having a lack of discipline and structure in the first place. Boris Johnson?
Infamously lazy, from what I've read. More competent than Trump isn't competent.
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On February 11 2021 01:10 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2021 00:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Meh, I have no problems seeing how Trump can be considered charismatic. He can be funny. (Stories about him + kelly joking about Kim Yong Un hitting on Huckabee Sanders were him being genuinely funny. )
He's also good at giving people compliments - and people really latch on to compliments given by celebrities / people who are in any way authorities. A lot of people report that he's charming in smaller settings. And he is genuinely very gifted in terms of playing / controlling a large crowd.
None of this is a defense of Trump the politician - he's also extremely undisciplined, doesn't read, doesn't prepare, is massively ignorant about a whole lot of stuff - and that's before addressing that he's also somewhere between a totally amoral and a genuinely evil person. But like - while I absolutely have a hard time understanding why and how he has gotten the amount of support he has gotten - as a politician - it's not like I thought it was particularly weird that people found him entertaining when he was just a television host and general celebrity.
I also think the lack of discipline is part of the appeal, in a way, and I think it's very hard to find someone who both shares Trump's talent in terms of crowd and media control but who also happens to be a really disciplined and hard worker (and thus competent). Imo, the crowd control and media performances are related to having an improvisational nature/personality - a personality that tends to be cultivated from having a lack of discipline and structure in the first place. Boris Johnson?
Boris Johnson compentent? Haaaaa
E: that's not to say that I think entertaining and funny media personalities are by definition undisciplined. I think someone like John Oliver (or for that matter, Michael Moore) spends a lot of time and effort thinking about topics to tackle, how to address them, where to research them and then how to make them entertaining and funny to their public. Saying improvisation and discipline don't go hand in hand seems a bit dishonest. They obviously don't in Trump, but as another counter example, Sacha Baron Cohen is a genius at improv, but does an amazing amount of disciplined preparation for his characters too.
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It does sound silly. Guess I was thinking more about Cummings with regards to not being lazy.
Though he's not really caring about how he comes about in public.
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On February 11 2021 00:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Meh, I have no problems seeing how Trump can be considered charismatic. He can be funny. (Stories about him + kelly joking about Kim Yong Un hitting on Huckabee Sanders were him being genuinely funny. )
He's also good at giving people compliments - and people really latch on to compliments given by celebrities / people who are in any way authorities. A lot of people report that he's charming in smaller settings. And he is genuinely very gifted in terms of playing / controlling a large crowd.
None of this is a defense of Trump the politician - he's also extremely undisciplined, doesn't read, doesn't prepare, is massively ignorant about a whole lot of stuff - and that's before addressing that he's also somewhere between a totally amoral and a genuinely evil person. But like - while I absolutely have a hard time understanding why and how he has gotten the amount of support he has gotten - as a politician - it's not like I thought it was particularly weird that people found him entertaining when he was just a television host and general celebrity.
I also think the lack of discipline is part of the appeal, in a way, and I think it's very hard to find someone who both shares Trump's talent in terms of crowd and media control but who also happens to be a really disciplined and hard worker (and thus competent). Imo, the crowd control and media performances are related to having an improvisational nature/personality - a personality that tends to be cultivated from having a lack of discipline and structure in the first place.
Its a cultural thing. The kind of excessive, insecure bravado Trump uses resonates with a lot of very shitty people. All those memes about men driving trucks in the US are accurate. There really is a strong ooga booga tint to American culture.
In many ways, gender roles for men are as oppressive as they are for women in the US.
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Trump told his voters every day through his actions that they didn't have to try to be decent people. They could be selfish assholes, and not only is it fine, but fuck the feelings of people who have problems with that. The appeal is inherent with someone who tells people struggling with their racism or other assholery that they don't have to try anymore, because it's fine. I'm generally of the belief that while he might be charismatic, more often than not it's just a positive response to feeling accepted and embraced for a change - even if it's not deserved.
On February 11 2021 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2021 00:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Meh, I have no problems seeing how Trump can be considered charismatic. He can be funny. (Stories about him + kelly joking about Kim Yong Un hitting on Huckabee Sanders were him being genuinely funny. )
He's also good at giving people compliments - and people really latch on to compliments given by celebrities / people who are in any way authorities. A lot of people report that he's charming in smaller settings. And he is genuinely very gifted in terms of playing / controlling a large crowd.
None of this is a defense of Trump the politician - he's also extremely undisciplined, doesn't read, doesn't prepare, is massively ignorant about a whole lot of stuff - and that's before addressing that he's also somewhere between a totally amoral and a genuinely evil person. But like - while I absolutely have a hard time understanding why and how he has gotten the amount of support he has gotten - as a politician - it's not like I thought it was particularly weird that people found him entertaining when he was just a television host and general celebrity.
I also think the lack of discipline is part of the appeal, in a way, and I think it's very hard to find someone who both shares Trump's talent in terms of crowd and media control but who also happens to be a really disciplined and hard worker (and thus competent). Imo, the crowd control and media performances are related to having an improvisational nature/personality - a personality that tends to be cultivated from having a lack of discipline and structure in the first place. Its a cultural thing. The kind of excessive, insecure bravado Trump uses resonates with a lot of very shitty people. All those memes about men driving trucks in the US are accurate. There really is a strong ooga booga tint to American culture. In many ways, gender roles for men are as oppressive as they are for women in the US.
Absolutely. Toxic masculinity, not to go too deep into it, hurts everybody. It sets shit standards for how men can act and how women and others can expect to be treated. It's another example of giving shitty people a pass so they don't have to try. (Obviously I think the man's problems in this situation are a bit of a cry-me-a-river situation, you still have to take responsibility for your own shit, but that's what I think in this context). It can be unexpectedly liberating for everyone to just ask men to be better people - this is an arc I've been on myself.
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Holy shit I never thought I'd see the day where Red Kingdom by Tech N9ne would be played on the Senate floor as part of evidence of Trump's Impeachment Trial but here we are.
EDIT: In case anyone doesn't know, Red Kingdom is a nod to the Kansas City Chiefs (Tech N9ne's favorite and hometown football team) and has nothing to do with the GOP.
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If you mix the best and the worst from the last 4 US presidents, I think it is easy to find a formula for someone who can nuke what is left of the US democracy. Bush Jr. even had an alternate court system set up to send "terrorists" to Guantanamo asap. Obama and Clinton had charisma, work ethic and general IQ to get a clear majority in consecutive elections.
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On February 11 2021 05:12 Slydie wrote:
If you mix the best and the worst from the last 4 US presidents, I think it is easy to find a formula for someone who can nuke what is left of the US democracy. Bush Jr. even had an alternate court system set up to send "terrorists" to Guantanamo asap. Obama and Clinton had charisma, work ethic and general IQ to get a clear majority in consecutive elections.
Honestly, just Trumps (lack of) ideals and general desire to become an autocratic ruler combined with Obamas competency could have been enough to break US democracy. Imagine a person who does all the things Trump did, but well.
Imagine a president who sets up their private army of brownshirts, but also corrupts all power with people personally loyal to them. Do the Trump personal loyalty thing, but well, and without constantly pissing off everyone. Then, during the covid crisis, they push through a bunch of additional personal emergency powers. Have their personal goons patrol the streets to enforce a curfew or something like that. Get reelected and have four more years to strengthen their personal power. This president never leaves office.
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Any aspiring fascist dictators are going to look at this whole insurrection thing and think, "man, if someone who wasn't a massive dumbass organized this and attempted something competent... I mean they could pull that off couldn't they... why not me?"
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Especially when the impeachment trial fails. It sets precedent that any president that has lost their re-election is free to do whatever shit they feel like in the period after the loss till they are meant to leave office the following january. If there's precedent for being able to incitie riots and violent takeover of congress after a lost re-election without there being consequences to do so, then why not attempt to do so with every loss? If your goal is to stay in power, there's clearly nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
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Why stop at only doing it once you've lost reelection? This is such a low stakes time to be convicting Trump, they've ALREADY proved that they won't remove you from office if you sedition it up close enough to your removal date. Imo the lesson fascists learn here is that they can just try to forcibly take over the US Government and their side will literally not move to stop them ever, and may even continue to support and encourage them after they do it if they fail. They'll just get to quietly finish their term and move on consequence free.
Even this focus on Trump alone feels really really inadequate. Hawley has his hand up his ass and feet up ignoring this entire trial despite his encouragement, Ted Cruz is still allowed in Congress. Trump is the dumbest most helpless version of a fascist dictator, but Cruz and Hawley are vaguely competent and are the type of people that need to be cracked down on. Marjorie Taylor Green, Matt Gaetz, all of these nutters are slowly eroding any ability for the US to stop fascism, and we're already dangerously close to tipping over at the next competent fascist with a will.
So yeah, this whole thing has been a huge failure in properly condemning fascism in my opinion.
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For the people still wondering why Republicans refuse to turn on Trump
A CBS News poll found that 33% of Republicans would join Trump's new political party and another 37% said they would "maybe" join the new party. Thirty percent of Republicans said they would not leave the GOP.
Additionally, 71% of Republicans say that any member of the party who votes to impeach or convict Trump is disloyal, compared to 29% who say they are principled.
Losing 1/3 of the Party to Trump would be a complete death sentence for the GOP going forward. They would lose every election in all but the most red of districts and even those who would not abandon the GOP still belief Trump should be acquitted.
www.usnews.com
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Norway28712 Posts
Shouldn't successfully impeaching him be in their best interests then, as it'd kill Trump's chances at becoming president for a third party. And there's no way Trump dedicates himself to a party to prop some other guy up to be president - the main package he's selling is himself.
(I mean, addressing the Trump's new party part of that poll. I get how the 71/29 is influential either way.)
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EPT
