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On January 10 2021 17:27 Slydie wrote:
To the defense of the GOP congress men and women, they are representing their constituents, which might difer from their personal opinions. Yes, I think they are irresponsable, but it is also very dangerous if politicians stop caring about the opinions of those who elected them.
Voters deserve predictability. If someone gots elected on supporting Trump no matter what he does, there are some very good reasons to stay firm in that position. This would include any other political position as well. If they don't deliver on their promises, they get punished by the voters, and it happens all over the political spectrum.
This is just as much a problem with the voters as with the politicians representing them.
The US democracy has always been dysfunctional, and it has gotten a lot worse, but is far from dead. The fact that GOP now lost all 3 branches of government under Trump is proof of that.
I don't think voters really come up with opinions on their own. They respond to the Stop the Steal narrative and that's why they showed up. And this was telegraphed well ahead of the election by virtually the entire GOP, that if the election was close enough they would try to contest it using lawfare. But the problem was that the election was decidedly in Biden's favour and that therefore lawfare approaches were doomed to fail. But because Trump is such a narcissist moron he thought that if he kept up the pretense of fraud and a "landslide election", which would have been useful distractions during a lawfare attack with a close election, that he could muscle his way into power anyway. And he riled up his base and they became extremely desperate, because by now they're a personality cult around Trump and they can see the signs on the wall that he is not going to be president anymore, even if they won't consciously admit it and sublimate it via QAnon conspiracy narratives. Hence the emotions running high during the rally.
And while Trump is primarily responsible for this, he has nevertheless been enabled by the GOP and the right mediasphere. And this is what ultimately informs the voters, and really what encourages them to then go out and bully people they think of as RINOs. It's like letting a Tiger out of the cage to cause panic and then later saying "oh I was scared myself".
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On January 10 2021 18:13 evilfatsh1t wrote:
general question about the two party system.
is there something in the constitution or other piece of legislation that prohibits the formation of further parties?
aside from lower prospects of achieving a majority if you split a party, why is this not an option (especially for the republicans). surely with the parties this divided there would be a fair few people who would be interested in forming another party that meets halfway and for many republicans it would perhaps give them a chance to be clean again. the more centrist 3rd party would probably have decent chances for success id imagine
There's absolutely no chance it's going to be anything other than a spoiler. That's why all the various left political movements explicitly run their candidates through the Democratic party primaries first, to eliminate spoilers during the general elections.
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On January 10 2021 12:07 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2021 08:47 Nevuk wrote:
If nothing else, makes the history books. He will stand alone in them on that record.
Btw, Toomey (r senator) just said he thinks Trump has committed impeachable offenses. Too many impeaches means they start to lose significance. If Trump gets impeached twice, with no actual punishment, what's the point in doing it at all? Who cares if anyone gets impeached at that point since it means nothing.
There is no time to impeach him again. They want it on record because the intention is to prosecute him.
The way you fight conspiracy theories is by suing these nut jobs. Dominion took the first step. There should be many more people sued in all this.
They want to ensure Trump has no power which is next to impossible when he will just create his own platform to get to all the nut jobs.
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Voters will believe more or less what they need to believe based on what you tell them and their material reality.
Imo America is willing to accept a Trump as a response to the serious material failings in their lives. I dunno if it's too late to fix the material concerns in order to settle down the populace, but we should try.
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On January 10 2021 19:58 Zambrah wrote:
Voters will believe more or less what they need to believe based on what you tell them and their material reality.
Imo America is willing to accept a Trump as a response to the serious material failings in their lives. I dunno if it's too late to fix the material concerns in order to settle down the populace, but we should try.
When everyone starts admit wrongdoing that is how you start making it around the corner.
We are supposed to learn from History so we don't make the same God damn mistakes.
I am still waiting for a shit ton of lawsuits against a wholllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllle bunch of people so things can get on record. I think the amount Dominion is suing for 1.3 billion is pretty tame based off how much shit has been tossed around.
All that money the stupid Trumps campaigned for should go to good use when they have 1,000 of lawsuits in the balance.
A whole bunch of people deserve their day in courts in every jurisdiction. Fuck em. Fuck em good.
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On January 10 2021 18:13 evilfatsh1t wrote:
general question about the two party system.
is there something in the constitution or other piece of legislation that prohibits the formation of further parties?
aside from lower prospects of achieving a majority if you split a party, why is this not an option (especially for the republicans). surely with the parties this divided there would be a fair few people who would be interested in forming another party that meets halfway and for many republicans it would perhaps give them a chance to be clean again. the more centrist 3rd party would probably have decent chances for success id imagine There are more parties in the US, Libertarian were on the ballot in every state, Greens is most of them I think.
But First Past The Post elections will naturally lead to a situation where there are only 2 effective parties because splitting the vote is a death sentence.
If it happens that a party splits then both will lose, badly, and one side will gobble up the other in order to stand a chance to win or they will both die out. In which case 1 party will dominate for a while until it likely splinters as there is now actually room for a new party.
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On January 10 2021 18:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It might be a short lived phenomenon. People haaaaaaaaate being wrong, and even more so, recognizing it. Have you read anyone here say : "Well I fucked up, this guy was just terrible and you were right, I made a mistake to vote for him"?
Someone who would do that would earn everyone's instant respect, but it takes quite a remarkable person to have it in himself.
If it's not just a temporary psychological strategy, then the GOP is probably over. It will be a party of populists conspiracy theorists, and i think they will lose everything for the years to come. I remember BiologyMajor(sp?) saying his goodbye from the thread back in 2016 because he could not get behind 'his' party election Trump.
He got a lot of respect for that, including mine.
On January 10 2021 13:35 StalkerTL wrote:
Dog catching up to material. Peter Meijer is saying that a lot of Republicans don't believe what they're saying but are saying these things because they're terrified their base will do things to their family if they don't.
Priming your base to accept bullshit conspiracy theories under the guise of red meat for decades until they don't eat anything but the reddest of meat and are positively rabid you when you try to feed them vegetables required for a healthy diet.
Matches the Democrat house member who said a majority of Republican house members don't believe what they're doing but are essentially cowards who have lost control of the situation.
Funny how we're all "we don't negotiate with terrorists" in 2000 and now all "we totally negotiate with terrorists" in 2020.
Its the age old trick of denying any and all responsibility for the situation.
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BBC is reporting on charges being brought against some of insurgents: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044
And judging from charges those people are getting it seems like this might become new norm. Apparently You can just force Yourself into US Capitol trying to take hostegs and get: "violent entry and disorderly conduct". I know this has been repeated time after time but if they were brown & muslim they would end spending their lfies in prison (if by some miracle they would surrive entry attempt).
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On January 10 2021 21:19 Silvanel wrote:BBC is reporting on charges being brought against some of insurgents: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044 And judging from charges those people are getting it seems like this might become new norm. Apparently You can just force Yourself into US Capitol trying to take hostegs and get: "violent entry and disorderly conduct". I know this has been repeated time after time but if they were brown & muslim they would end spending their lfies in prison (if by some miracle they would surrive entry attempt).
I hope it is only the beginning, and that more serious charges will be pressed as the investigation progresses.
I also found it funny that Q-shaman states that "there were no members of Antifa or any other left-wing organisations present in or around the Capitol building on 6 January. It was "patriots doing what our founding fathers would have done". The reason he knew that was "because Antifa are cowards who have no commitment to their country or their cause" while other Trump supporters blame the violence on Antifa and far-left infiltration.
The investigation and following trials can not possibly be thorough enough, as there will be conspiracy theories no matter what, which will even contradict what the rebels say themselves to fit the desired version of "reality".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044
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On January 10 2021 21:19 Silvanel wrote:BBC is reporting on charges being brought against some of insurgents: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044 And judging from charges those people are getting it seems like this might become new norm. Apparently You can just force Yourself into US Capitol trying to take hostegs and get: "violent entry and disorderly conduct". I know this has been repeated time after time but if they were brown & muslim they would end spending their lfies in prison (if by some miracle they would surrive entry attempt).
Yup. Media does it too by reporting the lectern guy as "carrying" it and not "looting" it. Saw a meme with with the family guy color chart edited to carrying/looting.
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On January 10 2021 13:35 StalkerTL wrote:Dog catching up to material. Peter Meijer is saying that a lot of Republicans don't believe what they're saying but are saying these things because they're terrified their base will do things to their family if they don't. Priming your base to accept bullshit conspiracy theories under the guise of red meat for decades until they don't eat anything but the reddest of meat and are positively rabid you when you try to feed them vegetables required for a healthy diet. Matches the Democrat house member who said a majority of Republican house members don't believe what they're doing but are essentially cowards who have lost control of the situation. Funny how we're all "we don't negotiate with terrorists" in 2000 and now all "we totally negotiate with terrorists" in 2020. https://twitter.com/RiegerReport/status/1348113803158945793
the interview is well worth the read. I'll be cheeky and give the direct link here for convenience.
reason magazine interview with rookie GOP congressman Meijer after the capitol attack
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On January 11 2021 01:04 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2021 21:19 Silvanel wrote:BBC is reporting on charges being brought against some of insurgents: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044 And judging from charges those people are getting it seems like this might become new norm. Apparently You can just force Yourself into US Capitol trying to take hostegs and get: "violent entry and disorderly conduct". I know this has been repeated time after time but if they were brown & muslim they would end spending their lfies in prison (if by some miracle they would surrive entry attempt). Yup. Media does it too by reporting the lectern guy as "carrying" it and not "looting" it. Saw a meme with with the family guy color chart edited to carrying/looting.
The most hilarous comment I read was that the lectern guy "was just taking a stand".
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Bisutopia19250 Posts
On January 10 2021 18:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It might be a short lived phenomenon. People haaaaaaaaate being wrong, and even more so, recognizing it. Have you read anyone here say : "Well I fucked up, this guy was just terrible and you were right, I made a mistake to vote for him"?
Someone who would do that would earn everyone's instant respect, but it takes quite a remarkable person to have it in himself.
If it's not just a temporary psychological strategy, then the GOP is probably over. It will be a party of populists conspiracy theorists, and i think they will lose everything for the years to come.
Flashftw admitted voting for Trump was a wrong decision in the exact way you describe here on TL. My wife voted for trump 2016 election while I voted libertarian. We both are sorry for giving Trump the benefit of the doubt for as long as we did. The majority of the benefit for me comes from the dems immediately saying the last election was stolen and then spending every minute while he was in office trying to impeach him instead of focus on the country. But in the end we just see both Trump, conservatives, and the dems not caring one bit for this country in DC and voted as third party as possible. We have it the worst though because no party represents us now. On a local level things are still looking good though.
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United States42884 Posts
On January 11 2021 01:52 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2021 18:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It might be a short lived phenomenon. People haaaaaaaaate being wrong, and even more so, recognizing it. Have you read anyone here say : "Well I fucked up, this guy was just terrible and you were right, I made a mistake to vote for him"?
Someone who would do that would earn everyone's instant respect, but it takes quite a remarkable person to have it in himself.
If it's not just a temporary psychological strategy, then the GOP is probably over. It will be a party of populists conspiracy theorists, and i think they will lose everything for the years to come. Flashftw admitted voting for Trump was a wrong decision in the exact way you describe here on TL. My wife voted for trump 2016 election while I voted libertarian. We both are sorry for giving Trump the benefit of the doubt for as long as we did. The majority of the benefit for me comes from the dems immediately saying the last election was stolen and then spending every minute while he was in office trying to impeach him instead of focus on the country. But in the end we just see both Trump, conservatives, and the dems not caring one bit for this country in DC and voted as third party as possible. We have it the worst though because no party represents us now. On a local level things are still looking good though.
Now you've become aware of the truth regarding Trump's nature why do you still think the Democratic Party trying to hold him accountable over the last four years was wrong? If they hadn't done all they work they've done you'd be stuck with a Trump as President for life situation right now. It's weird that you can look at his attempted coup and realize that the guy will do anything to stay in power but not look at him using government money to bribe foreign countries into investigating his political opponents and still oppose the attempt to remove him from office.
Knowing what you know now do you not now see the impeachment efforts were a desperate effort to remove the fascist by constitutional means for his attempts to end American democracy?
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Apparently Trump doesn't think anyone is going to do anything to remove him from office so hes planning to make his last week a big one, including a trip to the Alamo, and additional pardons. Someone should tell TX to mobilize their National Guard in advance because that is sure to be a situation ripe for the incitement of some sort of riot. This may also be the week where we see Trump attempt to pardon himself, so I think we're going to be in for a news filled week, with very little of that news being anything particularly good.
This confidence that Trump has that he gets to finish his term is why the Republican committal to do nothing is such a problem. Its now utterly beyond clear that Trump and anyone like him can do whatever they please and noone will hold them to account for their actions. This is the moment in American history where accountability is on it's death bed, we're watching it live in real time.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/trump-plans-defiant-final-week-as-many-democrats-urge-his-ouster?sref=yYYRek8e
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On January 11 2021 01:52 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2021 18:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It might be a short lived phenomenon. People haaaaaaaaate being wrong, and even more so, recognizing it. Have you read anyone here say : "Well I fucked up, this guy was just terrible and you were right, I made a mistake to vote for him"?
Someone who would do that would earn everyone's instant respect, but it takes quite a remarkable person to have it in himself.
If it's not just a temporary psychological strategy, then the GOP is probably over. It will be a party of populists conspiracy theorists, and i think they will lose everything for the years to come. Flashftw admitted voting for Trump was a wrong decision in the exact way you describe here on TL. My wife voted for trump 2016 election while I voted libertarian. We both are sorry for giving Trump the benefit of the doubt for as long as we did. The majority of the benefit for me comes from the dems immediately saying the last election was stolen and then spending every minute while he was in office trying to impeach him instead of focus on the country. But in the end we just see both Trump, conservatives, and the dems not caring one bit for this country in DC and voted as third party as possible. We have it the worst though because no party represents us now. On a local level things are still looking good though.
I like the nuance. The country would be a much better place if reflection on 2016-2020 integrated the “ the dems immediately saying the last election was stolen and then spending every minute while he was in office trying to impeach him instead of focus on the country” into societal consciousness. It’s at risk of being forgotten in the conclusion to his presidency. Hopefully, the future brings candidates and understanding to a couple that voted Republican/Libertarian 2016.
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On January 10 2021 21:19 Silvanel wrote:BBC is reporting on charges being brought against some of insurgents: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044 And judging from charges those people are getting it seems like this might become new norm. Apparently You can just force Yourself into US Capitol trying to take hostegs and get: "violent entry and disorderly conduct". I know this has been repeated time after time but if they were brown & muslim they would end spending their lfies in prison (if by some miracle they would surrive entry attempt).
Different crimes have different punishments - the guy with molotov cocktails will obviously get a felony, and the people who bludgeoned a police officer to death aren't likely to get off easy when found. I can't speak for skin color but in general antifa riot and loot with impunity in Portland and NYC. In Seattle the officials welcome takeovers of government centers: https://komonews.com/news/local/council-member-sawant-let-protesters-into-city-hall-to-show-it-belongs-to-the-people
The difference with January 6th is not that it's particularly violent compared to other protests and riots from 2020 and earlier, but that it took place where those in power work, meaning for the first time it's real for them. Also the FBI aren't ones to sit on their hands at the direction of local officials, unlike municipal law enforcement who stand by or catch and release antifa hooligans.
I forgot someone punched the mayor of Portland at a restaurant too and I think hasn't been caught.
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On January 11 2021 03:49 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2021 01:52 BisuDagger wrote:On January 10 2021 18:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It might be a short lived phenomenon. People haaaaaaaaate being wrong, and even more so, recognizing it. Have you read anyone here say : "Well I fucked up, this guy was just terrible and you were right, I made a mistake to vote for him"?
Someone who would do that would earn everyone's instant respect, but it takes quite a remarkable person to have it in himself.
If it's not just a temporary psychological strategy, then the GOP is probably over. It will be a party of populists conspiracy theorists, and i think they will lose everything for the years to come. Flashftw admitted voting for Trump was a wrong decision in the exact way you describe here on TL. My wife voted for trump 2016 election while I voted libertarian. We both are sorry for giving Trump the benefit of the doubt for as long as we did. The majority of the benefit for me comes from the dems immediately saying the last election was stolen and then spending every minute while he was in office trying to impeach him instead of focus on the country. But in the end we just see both Trump, conservatives, and the dems not caring one bit for this country in DC and voted as third party as possible. We have it the worst though because no party represents us now. On a local level things are still looking good though. I like the nuance. The country would be a much better place if reflection on 2016-2020 integrated the “ the dems immediately saying the last election was stolen and then spending every minute while he was in office trying to impeach him instead of focus on the country” into societal consciousness. It’s at risk of being forgotten in the conclusion to his presidency. Hopefully, the future brings candidates and understanding to a couple that voted Republican/Libertarian 2016. If by 'the dems' you mean all intelligence agencies, the Republican majority lead Senate intelligence oversight committee and multiple allied countries...
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On January 11 2021 03:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2021 21:19 Silvanel wrote:BBC is reporting on charges being brought against some of insurgents: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044 And judging from charges those people are getting it seems like this might become new norm. Apparently You can just force Yourself into US Capitol trying to take hostegs and get: "violent entry and disorderly conduct". I know this has been repeated time after time but if they were brown & muslim they would end spending their lfies in prison (if by some miracle they would surrive entry attempt). Different crimes have different punishments - the guy with molotov cocktails will obviously get a felony, and the people who bludgeoned a police officer to death aren't likely to get off easy when found. I can't speak for skin color but in general antifa riot and loot with impunity in Portland and NYC. In Seattle the officials welcome takeovers of government centers: https://komonews.com/news/local/council-member-sawant-let-protesters-into-city-hall-to-show-it-belongs-to-the-peopleThe difference with January 6th is not that it's particularly violent compared to other protests and riots from 2020 and earlier, but that it took place where those in power work, meaning for the first time it's real for them. Also the FBI aren't ones to sit on their hands at the direction of local officials, unlike municipal law enforcement who stand by or catch and release antifa hooligans.
Did you read the article? That has to be the most...relaxed takeover I've ever seen.
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On January 11 2021 03:55 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2021 03:49 Danglars wrote:On January 11 2021 01:52 BisuDagger wrote:On January 10 2021 18:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It might be a short lived phenomenon. People haaaaaaaaate being wrong, and even more so, recognizing it. Have you read anyone here say : "Well I fucked up, this guy was just terrible and you were right, I made a mistake to vote for him"?
Someone who would do that would earn everyone's instant respect, but it takes quite a remarkable person to have it in himself.
If it's not just a temporary psychological strategy, then the GOP is probably over. It will be a party of populists conspiracy theorists, and i think they will lose everything for the years to come. Flashftw admitted voting for Trump was a wrong decision in the exact way you describe here on TL. My wife voted for trump 2016 election while I voted libertarian. We both are sorry for giving Trump the benefit of the doubt for as long as we did. The majority of the benefit for me comes from the dems immediately saying the last election was stolen and then spending every minute while he was in office trying to impeach him instead of focus on the country. But in the end we just see both Trump, conservatives, and the dems not caring one bit for this country in DC and voted as third party as possible. We have it the worst though because no party represents us now. On a local level things are still looking good though. I like the nuance. The country would be a much better place if reflection on 2016-2020 integrated the “ the dems immediately saying the last election was stolen and then spending every minute while he was in office trying to impeach him instead of focus on the country” into societal consciousness. It’s at risk of being forgotten in the conclusion to his presidency. Hopefully, the future brings candidates and understanding to a couple that voted Republican/Libertarian 2016. If by 'the dems' you mean all intelligence agencies, the Republican majority lead Senate intelligence oversight committee and multiple allied countries...
Dont engage with Danglars' framing, they didnt even say the election was stolen, hes trying to equivocate Democrats and Republicans to make this situation look less like what it is.
Democrats complained that there was election interference from the Russians, but that is very different from saying the election was stolen.
This, 'the election was stolen' rhetoric engages with the idea that there are innumerable accounts of voter fraud that the federal government has either covered up or actively encouraged or even engaged with themselves.
The Democrats at large did not engage in behavior even mildly similar to what Trump and a large portion of the Republican House and a smaller portion of the Republican Senate are currently engaging in.
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EPT
