EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 259
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
Court appointments only happen after people get elected. You can't make silly statements like people only care about court appointments when they have no direct path to influence it. I'm not saying "both sides" but making these wide reaching half truths are the same thing as the "yall on the left" you bitch about constantly. | ||
KwarK
United States43203 Posts
As for Planned Parenthood, no, abortion has done nothing but cost them funding. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 06 2018 13:14 Sermokala wrote: You can't act like you have the moral high ground on activism when you're doing the same thing as the other side essencialy. The activism market only exists because both sides have monetized these court and legislative battles. For every anti gay marriage group there was a pro gay marriage group soliciting donations and distributing propaganda about the issue. Planned parenthood wouldn't have a fraction of its funding if it wasn't wholy in the public's mind when it comes to the abortion debate. See the NRA for gun control. Court appointments only happen after people get elected. You can't make silly statements like people only care about court appointments when they have no direct path to influence it. I'm not saying "both sides" but making these wide reaching half truths are the same thing as the "yall on the left" you bitch about constantly. I never said I had the moral high ground. What these people want is incompatible with my view of America and I truly believe will be harmful long term. The state and religion cannot be mingled the way they want. And religious exceptions to discrimination laws are not compatibility with protecting civil liberties. Their politics are the worst aspects of idenity politics, special rights for specific groups. Where their religion comes before their fellowship to other citizens, and well before those citizens rights. And I was never under the impression you were a Christian evangelical. They are a specific section of the Republican Party, lobbying for specific things. I did not attack the entire right, or even attack anyone. I simply framed the conflict without the illusion of compromise. If either of these sides gets what they want, the other side loses. If the Christian evangelicals get an exception, gay couples can legally be discriminated against in some way. If the gays couples secure protections for gay marriage, folks like the baker can’t make wedding cakes. The only compromise is that neither side ever gets what they want. That is my preferred outcome for America harmony. But if forced to pick, I side with the gay couples. Edit: and planned parenthood has funds because literally no one else will provide rural parts of the US with reproductive health services. They just also happen to provide abortions. There is no one else to do the job. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
Your not calling me a religious evangelical but you work hard to associate me with them when you use terms like "evangelical conservatives" and "the evangelical wing of the gop". By changing the status quo you are asking to change america to make it better. This isnt a new concept but the next development of how the country functions. You are advocating for gay rights over religious rights. Thats okay enough people hate religious people now anyway. Planned parenthood isnt a humanitarian assistance organization like the red cross. If abortion really cost them funding they wouldn't have their organizations name be such an obvious reference to it despite most of what they do having little to do with what the name says. They wouldnt need a superpac if they weren't interested in politics. Ofc I made activism market up thats how language works. We create words to desribe things in order to communicate with each other. Donations support civil rights activism and unless there is some income stream that I'm not aware of that makes it just like model for funding activism in other sectors like gun control and cancer research/awareness. | ||
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KwarK
United States43203 Posts
That's why they mostly deal in sexual health, birth control, and so forth. Honestly I'm not sure how you get from "Planned Parenthood" to "we kill unplanned fetuses so you don't have to be a parent". | ||
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mozoku
United States708 Posts
Nearly half of you reading this have bullshit jobs It was mostly "eh" article imo (great clickbait title though), but the "goon" category was the interesting part to me and the relevant passage to the discussion. The idea behind a goon is that they only serve a purpose when the other side has their own goons. The examples given include telemarketers, corporate lawyers, and lobbyists. Is this sort of what's happening the US, and will happen more as automation whittles down what actual work is required to meet basic needs? Even in a fully automated society (as far as basic needs go at least), goons are valuable to claim your right to more resources than the other guy. Or to argue for favorable legal treatment for you and your tribe (in the classical, not political sense). And the more goons you have, the better off you'll be... which also applies to the opposing tribe. In theory, you could have an entire society employed as goons. If you asked me, it seems like the goons have greatly multiplied since when I was little. Maybe I just didn't notice them then, idk. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 06 2018 09:21 Plansix wrote: The dude was a contractor and the warrant was recent, but it is all very strange. Even with that excepted, shouldn't everyone who comes near the white house - let alone works in it - be carefully screened? That just seems to be basic common sense given who lives in the White House. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21949 Posts
On June 06 2018 17:09 iamthedave wrote: From what I saw about it this is a case where the contractor has been working for the WH for a while. Even with that excepted, shouldn't everyone who comes near the white house - let alone works in it - be carefully screened? That just seems to be basic common sense given who lives in the White House. He did not have the warrant when he was initially screened. Everyone with WH access is occasionally re-checked. One can assume this person had not been checked in between the time the warrant was issued and his arrest (its 3 weeks old, issued may 17th) It makes sense that they don't have the capacity to re-check everyone every day, its a question of how often it does happen, if it should happen more and if something else went wrong in this instance. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9135 Posts
On June 06 2018 11:51 mozoku wrote: I think that sincere religious opposition to interracial marriage is comparable to sincere religious opposition to same-sex marriage (legally and ethically). As for the latter, I would say that I don't necessarily consider someone a hateful bigot for opposing interracial marriage out of sincere religious belief. There's a non-zero probability that they either are or are not a hateful bigot, and it would be unfair to label them as either without more information. My issue with 'sincere religious opposition' is the picking and choosing. Our entire economic model is based on usury, yet I wouldn't be shocked to learn that bakers that refuse to bake wedding cakes for gay couples do not boycott banks out of fear of sending their investors to hell. Most likely some of those bakeries were started with bank loans. That's why some people assume that their motivation on the issue of gay marriage or interracial marriage comes from bigotry, because choosing which bits of their sacred text to ignore and which to make a stand for is very much a personal choice, not a presupposed and immovable stance. | ||
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farvacola
United States18838 Posts
On June 06 2018 19:50 Dan HH wrote: My issue with 'sincere religious opposition' is the picking and choosing. Our entire economic model is based on usury, yet I wouldn't be shocked to learn that bakers that refuse to bake wedding cakes for gay couples do not boycott banks out of fear of sending their investors to hell. Most likely some of those bakeries were started with bank loans. That's why some people assume that their motivation on the issue of gay marriage or interracial marriage comes from bigotry, because choosing which bits of their sacred text to ignore and which to make a stand for is very much a personal choice, not a presupposed and immovable stance. Part of addressing this problem is going to involve Christians who need to stand up to those who would use the Bible as cover for what amount to political judgments. The notion that the Bible justifies homophobia or anti-miscegenation stances is accepted far too easily and without the challenges it deserves, but levying those challenges is ideally the task of fellow believers I'd wager. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 06 2018 17:43 Gorsameth wrote: From what I saw about it this is a case where the contractor has been working for the WH for a while. He did not have the warrant when he was initially screened. Everyone with WH access is occasionally re-checked. One can assume this person had not been checked in between the time the warrant was issued and his arrest (its 3 weeks old, issued may 17th) It makes sense that they don't have the capacity to re-check everyone every day, its a question of how often it does happen, if it should happen more and if something else went wrong in this instance. Okay, fair enough. I award them a pass. Is it bad that it just seemed like something that made sense for this White House? | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 06 2018 20:41 farvacola wrote: Part of addressing this problem is going to involve Christians who need to stand up to those who would use the Bible as cover for what amount to political judgments. The notion that the Bible justifies homophobia or anti-miscegenation stances is accepted far too easily and without the challenges it deserves, but levying those challenges is ideally the task of fellow believers I'd wager. In fairness, that notion has not just been getting challenged, but absolutely slam-dunk obliterated for decades. To the point that everyone who isn't a Christian and a ton of Christians as well consider it nonsense. At this point it's more of an outlying view than commonly accepted just about everywhere in Europe. Not that we don't have people making those arguments (indeed, we had a youngish woman making that precise argument during our own recent televised gay marriage debates to practical hissing from the audience, much to my amusement; there was a really palpable 'oh not this shit again' feeling both from the panellists and the audience). I wonder how much of it centres on America's specific brand of Christianity, though. The main Christian sect in the US differs both from orthodox and roman Christianity, doesn't it? As I understand it - and I may well be wrong as I've not looked deep into the differences between them - the main difference is the US focuses more on Jesus and personal revelation? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21949 Posts
On June 06 2018 21:09 iamthedave wrote: No, I pretty much assumed the same when I saw the headline.Okay, fair enough. I award them a pass. Is it bad that it just seemed like something that made sense for this White House? | ||
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brian
United States9629 Posts
for the sake of saying so i don’t mean ‘some people’ in the sense of anyone here. it seems clear this is not the case and exactly why i might get some more understanding. | ||
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farvacola
United States18838 Posts
On June 06 2018 21:15 iamthedave wrote: In fairness, that notion has not just been getting challenged, but absolutely slam-dunk obliterated for decades. To the point that everyone who isn't a Christian and a ton of Christians as well consider it nonsense. At this point it's more of an outlying view than commonly accepted just about everywhere in Europe. Not that we don't have people making those arguments (indeed, we had a youngish woman making that precise argument during our own recent televised gay marriage debates to practical hissing from the audience, much to my amusement; there was a really palpable 'oh not this shit again' feeling both from the panellists and the audience). I wonder how much of it centres on America's specific brand of Christianity, though. The main Christian sect in the US differs both from orthodox and roman Christianity, doesn't it? As I understand it - and I may well be wrong as I've not looked deep into the differences between them - the main difference is the US focuses more on Jesus and personal revelation? About 45 percent of Americans are Protestant Christians and around 20 percent are Catholics. Among the former group, there's a shit ton of differentiation; American Episcopalians, for example, are arguably the most liberal sect of the denomination in the world, which is partly why we were excommunicated by the Anglican Communion lol. All that said, we are definitely the headquarters for evangelical Christianity, which is the sort you're describing, and in the sense that they privy faux-fundamentalism, faith alone, and other garbage that has nothing to do with Jesus, it dominates popular discussions here and you're correct to point that out. However, that needs to and can change! | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23456 Posts
On June 06 2018 21:46 brian wrote: in what possible twisted sense are the words ‘planned parenthood’ an abortion reference? can we circle back to this? I often wonder how people have such a confident misunderstanding of the centers, and i think this’ll help. Planning is abortion. Sex is always for procreation and the parenting part is Gods will. So sayeth the lord. I mean I presume that's the long and short of it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And the reason Planned Parenthood offers abortions is because they not a religious origination and want to provide the medicinal services women are seeking. And they are often the only healthcare service provider for many rural areas. If they are defunded, the services will not be replaced. Mike Pence showed us that. | ||
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