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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On June 07 2018 01:40 farvacola wrote:
The only people I personally know that are moving between Canada and the US are going from the latter to the former, but alas, such incongruities are the stuff of unverifiable personal anecdotes.
that is why i matched up the unemployment stats with the personal anecdote.
the economy in Ontario is ok or maybe a bit above average. Hydro costs increased 6-fold with the end of coal generation and the move to nuclear. Ontario went from the lowest hydro costs in NA and a big exporter of hydro ... to the highest cost hydro in NA and a net importer of hydro. this has decimated Ontario's industrial sector.
the economy in Ontario should be booming right now. and its not. i'm doing well because people are leaving for the US and handing me their customers. its not like i'm getting super cool new projects.
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On June 07 2018 02:17 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 01:56 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On June 07 2018 01:48 JimmiC wrote:On June 07 2018 01:42 Plansix wrote:Economist can't figure out why wage growth has stalled. But some believe it is because the rich people are keeping all the money. Source:EAGAN, Minn. — A group of East African employees is asking retail giant Amazon to improve working conditions at an eastern Minnesota warehouse.
Employees at the Eagan facility made the request at a Monday news conference called by the Awood Center, which defends the rights of East African workers, Minnesota Public Radio reported .
The employees allege they have experienced exhaustion, dehydration and injuries while working without air conditioning. Workers said the conditions are particularly difficult for Muslim workers who are celebrating Ramadan and observing a strict fast.
“Recently, I couldn’t work because I needed water,” Nimo Hirad, an order picker at the facility, said through an interpreter. “I got so thirsty, I couldn’t even swallow my saliva. I ended up breaking my fast and drinking water two days in a row.”
The center said it has received a few dozen complaints from workers in the past two months, including about work being done by individuals that used to be done in teams.
Amazon spokesman Ernesto Apreza said the company provides a “positive and accommodating workplace.” He said the Eagan facility has air conditioned break areas, fans throughout the building and accommodates employees’ religious practices. The Eagan facility has a temporary prayer room and a permanent one is being constructed, he said.
Christopher Warren, the facility’s general manager, declined to comment.
MPR reports that it’s unclear if the complaints have also been filed with Amazon or the state. A Minnesota workplace safety agency has twice investigated the Eagan facility in the past, but it didn’t cite Amazon in either case, according to James Honerman, a spokesman for the state Department of Labor and Industry.
One complaint in 2016 was about employees experiencing symptoms of excessive heat, and a 2018 complaint was about braking systems on rolling ladders not functioning, Honerman said. The state’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration conducted inspections and did not issue any citations, he said... The owner of this company said the funding space travel only thing that made sense for him and his vast wealth. Maybe he could buy or build a wearhouse with better airflow and working conditions for these employees. And I also question the Minnesota's Occupational Safety and Health Administration has the leverage to take on what is likely one of the largest employers in that state. Minnesota is very, very poor and not very well governed. I don't know how to write this without coming off as a bigot. But in the traditionally Muslim countries that are very hot how do they handle this? I can't imagine that they all have A/C buildings. Do they have other solutions? Thousands of people die every year during the fasting due to dehydration. Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 01:54 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2018 01:48 JimmiC wrote:On June 07 2018 01:42 Plansix wrote:Economist can't figure out why wage growth has stalled. But some believe it is because the rich people are keeping all the money. Source:EAGAN, Minn. — A group of East African employees is asking retail giant Amazon to improve working conditions at an eastern Minnesota warehouse.
Employees at the Eagan facility made the request at a Monday news conference called by the Awood Center, which defends the rights of East African workers, Minnesota Public Radio reported .
The employees allege they have experienced exhaustion, dehydration and injuries while working without air conditioning. Workers said the conditions are particularly difficult for Muslim workers who are celebrating Ramadan and observing a strict fast.
“Recently, I couldn’t work because I needed water,” Nimo Hirad, an order picker at the facility, said through an interpreter. “I got so thirsty, I couldn’t even swallow my saliva. I ended up breaking my fast and drinking water two days in a row.”
The center said it has received a few dozen complaints from workers in the past two months, including about work being done by individuals that used to be done in teams.
Amazon spokesman Ernesto Apreza said the company provides a “positive and accommodating workplace.” He said the Eagan facility has air conditioned break areas, fans throughout the building and accommodates employees’ religious practices. The Eagan facility has a temporary prayer room and a permanent one is being constructed, he said.
Christopher Warren, the facility’s general manager, declined to comment.
MPR reports that it’s unclear if the complaints have also been filed with Amazon or the state. A Minnesota workplace safety agency has twice investigated the Eagan facility in the past, but it didn’t cite Amazon in either case, according to James Honerman, a spokesman for the state Department of Labor and Industry.
One complaint in 2016 was about employees experiencing symptoms of excessive heat, and a 2018 complaint was about braking systems on rolling ladders not functioning, Honerman said. The state’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration conducted inspections and did not issue any citations, he said... The owner of this company said the funding space travel only thing that made sense for him and his vast wealth. Maybe he could buy or build a wearhouse with better airflow and working conditions for these employees. And I also question the Minnesota's Occupational Safety and Health Administration has the leverage to take on what is likely one of the largest employers in that state. Minnesota is very, very poor and not very well governed. I don't know how to write this without coming off as a bigot. But in the traditionally Muslim countries that are very hot how do they handle this? I can't imagine that they all have A/C buildings. Do they have other solutions? They design their buildings to have better ventilation and don't work in the hottest parts of the day because it is a health risk. Or in the case of some countries with lax labor laws and governments that don't care, people die due to poor work conditions. Well shit, hopefully a company with the resources of Amazon can do better. I can't personally imagine the dedication to fasting to risk death.
On June 07 2018 01:56 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 01:48 JimmiC wrote:On June 07 2018 01:42 Plansix wrote:Economist can't figure out why wage growth has stalled. But some believe it is because the rich people are keeping all the money. Source:EAGAN, Minn. — A group of East African employees is asking retail giant Amazon to improve working conditions at an eastern Minnesota warehouse.
Employees at the Eagan facility made the request at a Monday news conference called by the Awood Center, which defends the rights of East African workers, Minnesota Public Radio reported .
The employees allege they have experienced exhaustion, dehydration and injuries while working without air conditioning. Workers said the conditions are particularly difficult for Muslim workers who are celebrating Ramadan and observing a strict fast.
“Recently, I couldn’t work because I needed water,” Nimo Hirad, an order picker at the facility, said through an interpreter. “I got so thirsty, I couldn’t even swallow my saliva. I ended up breaking my fast and drinking water two days in a row.”
The center said it has received a few dozen complaints from workers in the past two months, including about work being done by individuals that used to be done in teams.
Amazon spokesman Ernesto Apreza said the company provides a “positive and accommodating workplace.” He said the Eagan facility has air conditioned break areas, fans throughout the building and accommodates employees’ religious practices. The Eagan facility has a temporary prayer room and a permanent one is being constructed, he said.
Christopher Warren, the facility’s general manager, declined to comment.
MPR reports that it’s unclear if the complaints have also been filed with Amazon or the state. A Minnesota workplace safety agency has twice investigated the Eagan facility in the past, but it didn’t cite Amazon in either case, according to James Honerman, a spokesman for the state Department of Labor and Industry.
One complaint in 2016 was about employees experiencing symptoms of excessive heat, and a 2018 complaint was about braking systems on rolling ladders not functioning, Honerman said. The state’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration conducted inspections and did not issue any citations, he said... The owner of this company said the funding space travel only thing that made sense for him and his vast wealth. Maybe he could buy or build a wearhouse with better airflow and working conditions for these employees. And I also question the Minnesota's Occupational Safety and Health Administration has the leverage to take on what is likely one of the largest employers in that state. Minnesota is very, very poor and not very well governed. I don't know how to write this without coming off as a bigot. But in the traditionally Muslim countries that are very hot how do they handle this? I can't imagine that they all have A/C buildings. Do they have other solutions? Thousands of people die every year during the fasting due to dehydration.
ehh thats not necessarily because they are fasting, its just because the temperatures and working environments etc etc and there is no access to hydration and shelter. In most developing third world Muslim countries (especially the ones that experience drought) there are no labor laws or even an adequate system of assistance for the really vulnerable parts of society to protect them from extreme temperature.
Ofcourse there are stupid laws like the banning of consuming food and water in public during fasting hours but hardly anyone dies of dehydration because they would rather die than break their fast. Most of the vulnerable people to the weather and work conditions dont really fast anyway, what they dont have is access to shelter and water, so they might aswell be fasting.
There might be some edge cases, but this has been a problem when the fasting period hasnt overlapped with the extremely hot summer anyway.
There is also very good reason as P6 possibly alluded to, to not try and equate how the third world countries deal with something that Developed Countries should deal with in a better way anyway. Thats a rather pointless exercise.
+ Show Spoiler +Its somewhat disconcerting that this sort of misinformed comment about people fasting to death or whatever rather was flippantly passed off as fact.
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It was only in the last 100 years that the US figured out how to not treat its workers like disposable trash. And that process involved a lot of violence and strikes. Other nations have not gone through that very cathartic process. Hell, we might have to go through it again at the rate we are going.
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United States42954 Posts
On June 07 2018 01:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 01:42 Plansix wrote:Economist can't figure out why wage growth has stalled. But some believe it is because the rich people are keeping all the money. Source:EAGAN, Minn. — A group of East African employees is asking retail giant Amazon to improve working conditions at an eastern Minnesota warehouse.
Employees at the Eagan facility made the request at a Monday news conference called by the Awood Center, which defends the rights of East African workers, Minnesota Public Radio reported .
The employees allege they have experienced exhaustion, dehydration and injuries while working without air conditioning. Workers said the conditions are particularly difficult for Muslim workers who are celebrating Ramadan and observing a strict fast.
“Recently, I couldn’t work because I needed water,” Nimo Hirad, an order picker at the facility, said through an interpreter. “I got so thirsty, I couldn’t even swallow my saliva. I ended up breaking my fast and drinking water two days in a row.”
The center said it has received a few dozen complaints from workers in the past two months, including about work being done by individuals that used to be done in teams.
Amazon spokesman Ernesto Apreza said the company provides a “positive and accommodating workplace.” He said the Eagan facility has air conditioned break areas, fans throughout the building and accommodates employees’ religious practices. The Eagan facility has a temporary prayer room and a permanent one is being constructed, he said.
Christopher Warren, the facility’s general manager, declined to comment.
MPR reports that it’s unclear if the complaints have also been filed with Amazon or the state. A Minnesota workplace safety agency has twice investigated the Eagan facility in the past, but it didn’t cite Amazon in either case, according to James Honerman, a spokesman for the state Department of Labor and Industry.
One complaint in 2016 was about employees experiencing symptoms of excessive heat, and a 2018 complaint was about braking systems on rolling ladders not functioning, Honerman said. The state’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration conducted inspections and did not issue any citations, he said... The owner of this company said the funding space travel only thing that made sense for him and his vast wealth. Maybe he could buy or build a wearhouse with better airflow and working conditions for these employees. And I also question the Minnesota's Occupational Safety and Health Administration has the leverage to take on what is likely one of the largest employers in that state. Minnesota is very, very poor and not very well governed. I don't know how to write this without coming off as a bigot. But in the traditionally Muslim countries that are very hot how do they handle this? I can't imagine that they all have A/C buildings. Do they have other solutions?
If you’re asking about the gulf states, use slave labour from the Indian subcontinent while relaxing on their oil fortunes. Slaves typically don’t complain much about the heat.
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On June 07 2018 01:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 01:42 Plansix wrote:Economist can't figure out why wage growth has stalled. But some believe it is because the rich people are keeping all the money. Source:EAGAN, Minn. — A group of East African employees is asking retail giant Amazon to improve working conditions at an eastern Minnesota warehouse.
Employees at the Eagan facility made the request at a Monday news conference called by the Awood Center, which defends the rights of East African workers, Minnesota Public Radio reported .
The employees allege they have experienced exhaustion, dehydration and injuries while working without air conditioning. Workers said the conditions are particularly difficult for Muslim workers who are celebrating Ramadan and observing a strict fast.
“Recently, I couldn’t work because I needed water,” Nimo Hirad, an order picker at the facility, said through an interpreter. “I got so thirsty, I couldn’t even swallow my saliva. I ended up breaking my fast and drinking water two days in a row.”
The center said it has received a few dozen complaints from workers in the past two months, including about work being done by individuals that used to be done in teams.
Amazon spokesman Ernesto Apreza said the company provides a “positive and accommodating workplace.” He said the Eagan facility has air conditioned break areas, fans throughout the building and accommodates employees’ religious practices. The Eagan facility has a temporary prayer room and a permanent one is being constructed, he said.
Christopher Warren, the facility’s general manager, declined to comment.
MPR reports that it’s unclear if the complaints have also been filed with Amazon or the state. A Minnesota workplace safety agency has twice investigated the Eagan facility in the past, but it didn’t cite Amazon in either case, according to James Honerman, a spokesman for the state Department of Labor and Industry.
One complaint in 2016 was about employees experiencing symptoms of excessive heat, and a 2018 complaint was about braking systems on rolling ladders not functioning, Honerman said. The state’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration conducted inspections and did not issue any citations, he said... The owner of this company said the funding space travel only thing that made sense for him and his vast wealth. Maybe he could buy or build a wearhouse with better airflow and working conditions for these employees. And I also question the Minnesota's Occupational Safety and Health Administration has the leverage to take on what is likely one of the largest employers in that state. Minnesota is very, very poor and not very well governed. I don't know how to write this without coming off as a bigot. But in the traditionally Muslim countries that are very hot how do they handle this? I can't imagine that they all have A/C buildings. Do they have other solutions?
they dont have jobs where they are expected to walk around 15 or 20 miles every day ferrying packages back and forth like mules
im not sure that "air conditioning" and "ventilation" will prevent the need to drink water when walking that much
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On June 06 2018 21:46 brian wrote:
in what possible twisted sense are the words ‘planned parenthood’ an abortion reference? can we circle back to this? I often wonder how people have such a confident misunderstanding of the centers, and i think this’ll help.
for the sake of saying so i don’t mean ‘some people’ in the sense of anyone here. it seems clear this is not the case and exactly why i might get some more understanding.
How do you plan parenthood? You do it by a combination of 1) having a baby when you want. 2) not having a baby when you don’t want it.
Part 1 may involve fertility or some basic sex education. Part 2 is where the words Planned Parenthood implies abortion. To prevent pregnancy you’ll either follow abstinence, contraception, or failing the last two, abortion. Without part 2, you get a lot of unplanned parenthood.
I’m pro Planned Parenthood as I see it as a necessary range of services, including abortion. However, I can definitely see where abortion fits into ‘planned parenthood’.
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United States42954 Posts
On June 07 2018 02:54 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2018 21:46 brian wrote:
in what possible twisted sense are the words ‘planned parenthood’ an abortion reference? can we circle back to this? I often wonder how people have such a confident misunderstanding of the centers, and i think this’ll help.
for the sake of saying so i don’t mean ‘some people’ in the sense of anyone here. it seems clear this is not the case and exactly why i might get some more understanding. How do you plan parenthood? You do it by a combination of 1) having a baby when you want. 2) not having a baby when you don’t want it. Part 1 may involve fertility or some basic sex education. Part 2 is where the words Planned Parenthood implies abortion. To prevent pregnancy you’ll either follow abstinence, contraception, or failing the last two, abortion. Without part 2, you get a lot of unplanned parenthood. I’m pro Planned Parenthood as I see it as a necessary range of services, including abortion. However, I can definitely see where abortion fits into ‘planned parenthood’.
Surely planning not to have a baby mostly involves contraception and sex ed. In terms of the numbers of pregnancies prevented by PP abortion must be a rounding error. It’s certainly not fair to say it’s their business.
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On June 07 2018 01:22 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Lowest unemployment rate in 17 years. Toronto based colleagues of mine are leaving for New York, Illinois and Washington state in DROVES.
Congratz USA. you guys deserve a booming economy... i've got new customers falling into my lap every month.
i'm 30, and to think we've got a generation of kids//20-somethings who've never seen what its like to live in a booming economy. They've never experienced the late 1980s or the late 1990s or the early 2000s. The booming economy of the early 2000s gave me access to really cool work i'd normally never see.
any how, Congratz USA. To quote the late, great Ronald Reagan : " the business of America is business"
The history of that quote is quite complicated iirc; being a bastardization of the original version from, Coolidge or someone back around then. and a bunch of politicking one way or hte other on how it's interpreted.
It is indeed nice to have a booming economy (for the places that are having it, it's not everywhere). though there's a number of problems still with it; and plenty of indicators that a crash could be coming.
not that fond of reagan myself.
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We live in a nation where providing condoms in high schools is still a hot button issue. As a nation we have not come to terms with the simple concept that teens like to fuck and will fuck.
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On June 07 2018 03:00 zlefin wrote:
not that fond of reagan myself.
"a time for choosing" is 1 of the greatest political speeches i've ever heard. at the end of that thing i was like "hand me a gun and tell me which commie to shoot first". i can see why Reagan was re-elected as Prez by such a massive landslide. He turned the economy around and he has more charisma in his finger nail then any one else does in their whole body.
Pierre Trudeau's "Just watch me" was better only because it was ad lib.
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On June 07 2018 02:56 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 02:54 RenSC2 wrote:On June 06 2018 21:46 brian wrote:
in what possible twisted sense are the words ‘planned parenthood’ an abortion reference? can we circle back to this? I often wonder how people have such a confident misunderstanding of the centers, and i think this’ll help.
for the sake of saying so i don’t mean ‘some people’ in the sense of anyone here. it seems clear this is not the case and exactly why i might get some more understanding. How do you plan parenthood? You do it by a combination of 1) having a baby when you want. 2) not having a baby when you don’t want it. Part 1 may involve fertility or some basic sex education. Part 2 is where the words Planned Parenthood implies abortion. To prevent pregnancy you’ll either follow abstinence, contraception, or failing the last two, abortion. Without part 2, you get a lot of unplanned parenthood. I’m pro Planned Parenthood as I see it as a necessary range of services, including abortion. However, I can definitely see where abortion fits into ‘planned parenthood’. Surely planning not to have a baby mostly involves contraception and sex ed. In terms of the numbers of pregnancies prevented by PP abortion must be a rounding error. It’s certainly not fair to say it’s their business.
Everything you say is true. However, that rounding error involves “killing babies”. In general, a murderer is defined by that sole act of murder, not about the 99.9% of life where they didn’t murder. So when you see abortion as baby murder, defining Planned Parenthood by that act makes a lot of sense even though they do a lot of other good as their primary business.
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On June 07 2018 03:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:"a time for choosing" is 1 of the greatest political speeches i've ever heard. at the end of that thing i was like "hand me a gun and tell me which commie to shoot first". Pierre Trudeau's "Just watch me" was better only because it was ad lib.
good speeches are nice; but they're fairly low in import for how I rank politicians; and even for how much I like them. i.e. no amount of nice speeches makes up for substantive policy problems.
as to your edit add: I'm pretty sure he didn't turn the economy around; at least nowhere near the extent your description seems to imply.
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He is also responsible for one of the largest tax cuts in US history and economy in the country, many would say for the worse. Wealth has only drifted to the already wealthy since the 1980s. He sign the bill that removed the fairness doctrine, which allowed the creation of right wing talk radio and an entire industry of “political experts” who make money by pitting Americans against other Americans. He doesn’t rate very highly for me in domestic policy.
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On June 07 2018 03:09 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 03:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 07 2018 03:00 zlefin wrote:
not that fond of reagan myself. "a time for choosing" is 1 of the greatest political speeches i've ever heard. at the end of that thing i was like "hand me a gun and tell me which commie to shoot first". Pierre Trudeau's "Just watch me" was better only because it was ad lib. good speeches are nice; but they're fairly low in import for how I rank politicians; and even for how much I like them. i.e. no amount of nice speeches makes up for substantive policy problems. as to your edit add: I'm pretty sure he didn't turn the economy around; at least nowhere near the extent your description seems to imply.
in 1980 the USA was deep into a huge and brutal recession that started with the "stag-flation" in 1973.
in 1988 the USA had 6 consecutives years of massive growth.
that is why, in 1984, Reagan won so big.
the big saying was "Reagan-omics is working".
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United States42954 Posts
On June 07 2018 03:06 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 02:56 KwarK wrote:On June 07 2018 02:54 RenSC2 wrote:On June 06 2018 21:46 brian wrote:
in what possible twisted sense are the words ‘planned parenthood’ an abortion reference? can we circle back to this? I often wonder how people have such a confident misunderstanding of the centers, and i think this’ll help.
for the sake of saying so i don’t mean ‘some people’ in the sense of anyone here. it seems clear this is not the case and exactly why i might get some more understanding. How do you plan parenthood? You do it by a combination of 1) having a baby when you want. 2) not having a baby when you don’t want it. Part 1 may involve fertility or some basic sex education. Part 2 is where the words Planned Parenthood implies abortion. To prevent pregnancy you’ll either follow abstinence, contraception, or failing the last two, abortion. Without part 2, you get a lot of unplanned parenthood. I’m pro Planned Parenthood as I see it as a necessary range of services, including abortion. However, I can definitely see where abortion fits into ‘planned parenthood’. Surely planning not to have a baby mostly involves contraception and sex ed. In terms of the numbers of pregnancies prevented by PP abortion must be a rounding error. It’s certainly not fair to say it’s their business. Everything you say is true. However, that rounding error involves “killing babies”. In general, a murderer is defined by that sole act of murder, not about the 99.9% of life where they didn’t murder. So when you see abortion as baby murder, defining Planned Parenthood by that act makes a lot of sense even though they do a lot of other good as their primary business.
Yeah, I certainly see why the “they’re killing babies” lobby focus on that part and not the others. But Sermo’s characterization that it’s their business and in the name etc is just wrong. I don’t like Chil Fil A because they fund homophobic activism but I can still identify that their core business involves chicken. The part that is most important to me personally doesn’t become the universal truth.
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On June 07 2018 03:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 03:09 zlefin wrote:On June 07 2018 03:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 07 2018 03:00 zlefin wrote:
not that fond of reagan myself. "a time for choosing" is 1 of the greatest political speeches i've ever heard. at the end of that thing i was like "hand me a gun and tell me which commie to shoot first". Pierre Trudeau's "Just watch me" was better only because it was ad lib. good speeches are nice; but they're fairly low in import for how I rank politicians; and even for how much I like them. i.e. no amount of nice speeches makes up for substantive policy problems. as to your edit add: I'm pretty sure he didn't turn the economy around; at least nowhere near the extent your description seems to imply. in 1980 the USA was deep into a huge and brutal recession. in 1988 the USA has 6 consecutives years of massive growth. that is why in 1984 he won so big.
You've just proven you don't understand how causation works, and hence your points about reagan have no credibility 
you're merely an exemplar of a fact that's been massively documented in the political science literature:
presidents are given FAR more blame/credit for the economy than is actually warranted for the limited amount of influence they actually have.
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United States42954 Posts
On June 07 2018 03:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 03:09 zlefin wrote:On June 07 2018 03:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 07 2018 03:00 zlefin wrote:
not that fond of reagan myself. "a time for choosing" is 1 of the greatest political speeches i've ever heard. at the end of that thing i was like "hand me a gun and tell me which commie to shoot first". Pierre Trudeau's "Just watch me" was better only because it was ad lib. good speeches are nice; but they're fairly low in import for how I rank politicians; and even for how much I like them. i.e. no amount of nice speeches makes up for substantive policy problems. as to your edit add: I'm pretty sure he didn't turn the economy around; at least nowhere near the extent your description seems to imply. in 1980 the USA was deep into a huge and brutal recession that started with the "stag-flation" in 1973. in 1988 the USA had 6 consecutives years of massive growth. that is why in 1984 Reagan won so big. the big saying was "Reagan-omics is working".
Surely you need to look at other countries with other policies to establish a control group before any kind of causality can be suggested.
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On June 07 2018 03:16 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 03:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 07 2018 03:09 zlefin wrote:On June 07 2018 03:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 07 2018 03:00 zlefin wrote:
not that fond of reagan myself. "a time for choosing" is 1 of the greatest political speeches i've ever heard. at the end of that thing i was like "hand me a gun and tell me which commie to shoot first". Pierre Trudeau's "Just watch me" was better only because it was ad lib. good speeches are nice; but they're fairly low in import for how I rank politicians; and even for how much I like them. i.e. no amount of nice speeches makes up for substantive policy problems. as to your edit add: I'm pretty sure he didn't turn the economy around; at least nowhere near the extent your description seems to imply. in 1980 the USA was deep into a huge and brutal recession. in 1988 the USA has 6 consecutives years of massive growth. that is why in 1984 he won so big. You've just proven you don't understand how causation works, and hence your points about reagan have no credibility you're merely an exemplar of a fact that's been massively documented in the political science literature: presidents are given FAR more blame/credit for the economy than is actually warranted for the limited amount of influence they actually have.
nah, i think Reagan was a good prez and he got re-elected in a massive marjority due to that fact.
his excellent performance on the economy was only 1 aspect of his good work as Prez.
is it your position that Reagan did a poor job on the american economy?
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EPT
