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On August 19 2020 09:09 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2020 09:03 mierin wrote:On August 19 2020 07:51 Nevuk wrote:On August 19 2020 06:14 JimmiC wrote:
I don't think student loan forgiveness is good policy. It is treating the symptom and not the cause. And it helps middle class people get comfortable sooner rather than bring more to the middle class. Student loan debt was effectively a way for the government to massively raise taxes on those with the least political power (poor milennials) while avoiding pissing off those with the most (Boomers and the wealthy). It was simply a transfer of funding from state funds to the pockets of individuals (combined with ballooning administrative pay. Superintendents make 4-5x what a teacher makes on average, while University presidents can make 100-300x, for no reason, as far as I can tell). It wasn't what it was originally intended as, but it's what it turned into. Now that Millenials are starting to grasp power (largest voting bloc, even if they have a somewhat lower participation), there was no way in hell it was going to remain the status quo. You can't levy a 1/2 of a mortgage worth of debt on the majority of an entire generation at the age of 18 and expect the economy to function. The inevitability didn't make me take out more loans, but it does make me reluctant to pay more than the minimum on them. The amount of student loan debt is insane, and there was no real choice : a four year degree was almost required to work as a grocery bagger during the great recession. Now, student loan forgiveness without reforming the basic structure of loans would be stupid, but I won't be surprised if it happens that way. Very well said, though I think "millenials grasping power" is quite the hyperbole. Indeed. One of those things I very much wish was more the case The overall system is a mess, UK seems to be travelling down a similar path too, albeit to lesser extremes. I’m curious if there are places around that have kept both tuition prices down and avoided insane qualification inflation
I am as well. There's simply no reason for most jobs to require a college degree. I'm certainly not complaining about jobs requiring a HS education, but that's paid for already.
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Some private schools could charge no money for the next 50years and still have some in the banks. It is quite absurd really. Also the federal gov/state should be able to fix an upper limit, since it has ballooned out of proportion years ago. www.forbes.com
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On August 19 2020 20:10 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2020 09:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 19 2020 09:03 mierin wrote:On August 19 2020 07:51 Nevuk wrote:On August 19 2020 06:14 JimmiC wrote:
I don't think student loan forgiveness is good policy. It is treating the symptom and not the cause. And it helps middle class people get comfortable sooner rather than bring more to the middle class. Student loan debt was effectively a way for the government to massively raise taxes on those with the least political power (poor milennials) while avoiding pissing off those with the most (Boomers and the wealthy). It was simply a transfer of funding from state funds to the pockets of individuals (combined with ballooning administrative pay. Superintendents make 4-5x what a teacher makes on average, while University presidents can make 100-300x, for no reason, as far as I can tell). It wasn't what it was originally intended as, but it's what it turned into. Now that Millenials are starting to grasp power (largest voting bloc, even if they have a somewhat lower participation), there was no way in hell it was going to remain the status quo. You can't levy a 1/2 of a mortgage worth of debt on the majority of an entire generation at the age of 18 and expect the economy to function. The inevitability didn't make me take out more loans, but it does make me reluctant to pay more than the minimum on them. The amount of student loan debt is insane, and there was no real choice : a four year degree was almost required to work as a grocery bagger during the great recession. Now, student loan forgiveness without reforming the basic structure of loans would be stupid, but I won't be surprised if it happens that way. Very well said, though I think "millenials grasping power" is quite the hyperbole. Indeed. One of those things I very much wish was more the case The overall system is a mess, UK seems to be travelling down a similar path too, albeit to lesser extremes. I’m curious if there are places around that have kept both tuition prices down and avoided insane qualification inflation I am as well. There's simply no reason for most jobs to require a college degree. I'm certainly not complaining about jobs requiring a HS education, but that's paid for already.
I think what you really need is a reasonable path for qualification beyond college. Correct me if i am wrong, but if i understand correctly, in the US a college degree is basically the only way to be qualified beyond a high school degree. And that is problematic, because some jobs might not need a college degree, but they also don't want the bottom of the barrel of people who don't even manage anything beyond high school.
In Germany, we have an apprenticeship system for people learning trades (which involves part-time school as well), which leads to a certified qualification in that trade. There are additional levels of qualification beyond just finishing, too. So even without a college degree, you can be, for example, a certified master plumber.
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There are trade schools in the US aswell.
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On August 20 2020 00:16 Erasme wrote:
There are trade schools in the US aswell.
While that's a true statement, they're rarely part of the conversation for high schoolers about to graduate, and that's a problem. Educators, parents, and teenagers should be exploring all options for post- high school careers and opportunities.
Perhaps as college tuition continues to rise out of control, more parents (and hopefully more employers) will start to ask themselves "are there viable alternatives to college degrees"?
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Northern Ireland27394 Posts
On August 20 2020 00:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 00:16 Erasme wrote:
There are trade schools in the US aswell. While that's a true statement, they're rarely part of the conversation for high schoolers about to graduate, and that's a problem. Educators, parents, and teenagers should be exploring all options for post- high school careers and opportunities. Perhaps as college tuition continues to rise out of control, more parents (and hopefully more employers) will start to ask themselves "are there viable alternatives to college degrees"?
I’m rather pessimistic in that regard. To be fair we’re moving better in that direction over here for young people now/in future times
Doesn’t really help the previous generation who include many who are royally fucked by the current state of affairs.
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On August 19 2020 09:38 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2020 09:03 mierin wrote:On August 19 2020 07:51 Nevuk wrote:On August 19 2020 06:14 JimmiC wrote:
I don't think student loan forgiveness is good policy. It is treating the symptom and not the cause. And it helps middle class people get comfortable sooner rather than bring more to the middle class. Student loan debt was effectively a way for the government to massively raise taxes on those with the least political power (poor milennials) while avoiding pissing off those with the most (Boomers and the wealthy). It was simply a transfer of funding from state funds to the pockets of individuals (combined with ballooning administrative pay. Superintendents make 4-5x what a teacher makes on average, while University presidents can make 100-300x, for no reason, as far as I can tell). It wasn't what it was originally intended as, but it's what it turned into. Now that Millenials are starting to grasp power (largest voting bloc, even if they have a somewhat lower participation), there was no way in hell it was going to remain the status quo. You can't levy a 1/2 of a mortgage worth of debt on the majority of an entire generation at the age of 18 and expect the economy to function. The inevitability didn't make me take out more loans, but it does make me reluctant to pay more than the minimum on them. The amount of student loan debt is insane, and there was no real choice : a four year degree was almost required to work as a grocery bagger during the great recession. Now, student loan forgiveness without reforming the basic structure of loans would be stupid, but I won't be surprised if it happens that way. Very well said, though I think "millenials grasping power" is quite the hyperbole. Well, I did say "starting to". They obviously aren't running anything yet. Perhaps I should have phrased it as "starting to be able to", which is more what I was getting at. They are aging into the age when they start to become more reliable voters (seriously, millenials vote at the same rates that boomers did when they were younger. It's just an age thing. younger people vote less, unless the candidates are also very young), are the largest voting bloc, and are starting to have representation on the national stage. It wasn't until 2018 that more than a few millennials were even eligible to run for the house, and it didn't help that until 2018 most prominent members of the age group politically were republicans, who have been roundly rejected by their age group.
And depending on how 2020 elections go, we may not be able to run anything for another 10-20 years...
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On August 20 2020 00:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 00:16 Erasme wrote:
There are trade schools in the US aswell. While that's a true statement, they're rarely part of the conversation for high schoolers about to graduate, and that's a problem. Educators, parents, and teenagers should be exploring all options for post- high school careers and opportunities. Perhaps as college tuition continues to rise out of control, more parents (and hopefully more employers) will start to ask themselves "are there viable alternatives to college degrees"?
Employers will only start to ask themselves that if their hiring practices become excessively burdensome or if there's a wage differential that incentivizes them to hire a non-college graduate.
It's important to remember that even if it's completely irrelevant to the job being offered, a college degree serves as signaling for the employer. They know that the interviewee was driven enough to spend years studying, even if they can't tell if it was effective studying or not, and they know they are wealthy enough to afford a degree and that this is correlated with a more educated upbringing.
This isn't a defence of college-as-signaling, by the way. I'm just pointing out that even in a world in which a college degree adds nothing to your productivity, it will still make you more likely to be coveted by employers. In this hypothetical world, getting a college degree would fall in a individually-rational-but-collectively-irrational situation, and in this hypothetical world, the best thing to do would be to ban colleges  .
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Northern Ireland27394 Posts
On August 20 2020 08:02 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 00:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2020 00:16 Erasme wrote:
There are trade schools in the US aswell. While that's a true statement, they're rarely part of the conversation for high schoolers about to graduate, and that's a problem. Educators, parents, and teenagers should be exploring all options for post- high school careers and opportunities. Perhaps as college tuition continues to rise out of control, more parents (and hopefully more employers) will start to ask themselves "are there viable alternatives to college degrees"? Employers will only start to ask themselves that if their hiring practices become excessively burdensome or if there's a wage differential that incentivizes them to hire a non-college graduate. It's important to remember that even if it's completely irrelevant to the job being offered, a college degree serves as signaling for the employer. They know that the interviewee was driven enough to spend years studying, even if they can't tell if it was effective studying or not, and they know they are wealthy enough to afford a degree and that this is correlated with a more educated upbringing. This isn't a defence of college-as-signaling, by the way. I'm just pointing out that even in a world in which a college degree adds nothing to your productivity, it will still make you more likely to be coveted by employers. In this hypothetical world, getting a college degree would fall in a individually-rational-but-collectively-irrational situation, and in this hypothetical world, the best thing to do would be to ban colleges .
Employers already do this and can fuck off with doing it.
Amount of op-eds from companies or business orgs complaining about grads being under qualified and lacking skills, yet when I go to apply I’m gated out because their standards are minimum honours degree haha.
Getting to the bitter stage now really, I’m like 5-6 years of being unable to get a job that isn’t shit, although in theory going back to school for computer science should help.
Probs my most maddening moment was going for grunt office work and chatting with the interviewer (a rare office job that didn’t require a degree, incidentally). Said I could type 147 words a minute and had done some transcription on a volunteer basis, they asked if I had a qualification. I said no, I looked into it, I’d be paying minimum 200 British pounds to certify me to type at 60 WPM, which is too slow for actual transcription work by far anyway.
‘So you’re just telling me this without proof, how do I know?’
‘Well I can, but yes without proof anyone could say anything. That’s fair. You have a keyboard beside you, just talk to me and I can transcribe it, 30 seconds, if you want proof’
‘I don’t see how that’s relevant, you wouldn’t have accreditation’
‘I can go about 2.5 times faster than the accreditation gives, I could show you informally and if you would be satisfied with a demonstration I’m confident that I can do certain tasks faster than most other people.’
‘No that won’t be necessary, you’re not qualified for this position.’
1 of about a million ridiculous rejections I’ve had over the years. Bit frustrating after a while but ah well. Had a friend who did get a gig doing transcriptions and she just outsourced it for me to do as a sub-gig.
This is entirely discounting the huge amount of gigs I can’t even get to interview stage because they want an honours degree for.
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I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option.
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On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option.
Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why?
Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him.
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On August 20 2020 17:23 AliceBrent3 wrote:
Are you still sure your vote matters? It sometimes seems to me that political elections are just a farce with a final which has already been appointed (
Voter apathy, like what you're describing, is part of the reason Trump ended up being elected. This is the reason American elections are no longer won by convincing the fabled independents, but rather by firing up the party's bases. In essence, it makes hyper-partisanship a winning strategy which leads to the kind of stupidity we have observed with regards to the covid response, where a plan to address it was reportedly ditched by Kushner et al because it mainly affected blue states.
What I'm saying here is that statements like yours are a big part of the problem and until you start punishing stupidity in government, you're stuck with this.
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On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx
Why is it like this? Because the country does not matter, Trump sticks it to the Dems and the culture war is all that matters.
I don't see any other explanation for how a President can have 90% approval while pretending there is not a pandemic ravaging the country.
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On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him.
Why? You already know the answer.
Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going.
Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc...
DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting.
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On August 20 2020 20:52 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him. Why? You already know the answer.
Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going.
Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc...DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting.
That's fair. The vast majority of voters have already dug in their heels and know who they'll be voting for. I would imagine that the Dems need to focus on appealing to the moderates who might swing their individual votes from barely-right-leaning to barely-left-leaning, and/or the progressive left-wing that feels disenfranchised by the Democratic establishment. I don't know if it's contradictory to attempt to appeal to both the political centrists and those on the left "extreme" of America's political spectrum, but I suppose both groups could be thrown a few bones if the DNC cared enough to be creative and inclusive (which may or may not be the case).
And similarly, I'd expect the RNC to attempt to appeal to the moderates who might swing their individual votes from barely-left-leaning to barely-right-leaning, and/or the conservative sect that traditionally doesn't approve of the direction Donald Trump has been moving their party. But it's likely a waste of time, in practice, for a die-hard blue (or red) voter to try to convince a die-hard red (or blue) voter to switch sides.
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Northern Ireland27394 Posts
I’m still unsure why one can’t disapprove of Trump in a poll and still end up voting for him over Biden, or otherwise disapprove of most of the Dem platform. They’re separate albeit linked things.
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On August 20 2020 20:52 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him. Why? You already know the answer. Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going. Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc... DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting. not liking Democrat policies/Biden ect is a reason to not vote Democrat. But it in itself should not be the reason why Trump still has an approval of ~90% among Republicans.
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On August 20 2020 21:21 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 20:52 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him. Why? You already know the answer. Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going. Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc... DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting. not liking Democrat policies/Biden ect is a reason to not vote Democrat. But it in itself should not be the reason why Trump still has an approval of ~90% among Republicans.
If you're Team Republican you have to show support for your team.
Don't think of it as politics per se, think of it as an extension of a team sport and a fight between rival teams' fans.
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EPT
