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GreenHorizons
United States24361 Posts
On August 19 2020 05:45 CorsairHero wrote: Bernie was second last speaking just before Michelle Obama with 9 minutes of time. Did you believe him when he said we could push Biden to the left or do you believe Kasich that we can't? Or are you just pointing out that the DNC will have whoever speak and say whatever they think people want to hear regardless of its incoherence? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 19 2020 05:54 GreenHorizons wrote: Did you believe him when he said we could push Biden to the left or do you believe Kasich that we can't? Or are you just pointing out that the DNC will have whoever speak and say whatever they think people want to hear regardless of its incoherence? Comparing the 2008 platform to the 2020 platform is like 2 different parties. It is easy to say it isn't perfect yet but to say Biden hasn't been pushed left seems crazy. Student loan forgiveness is absolutely giant. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
On August 19 2020 06:14 JimmiC wrote: I don't think student loan forgiveness is good policy. It is treating the symptom and not the cause. And it helps middle class people get comfortable sooner rather than bring more to the middle class. Dude, student loan debt is a virus in the US, syphoning all the hard worked money from anybody trying to enter the middle class. I personally got lucky and only have to pay $15k, but you know how long I've been paying $15k off for?... The interest alone on repaying student loans is fucking stupid. I have 6%... that means I have to pay over $1000 dollars a month to even hit my principal. Now imagine people who have $50k+ with 5-6% repayment interest. Not a lot of people can afford paying that interest alone. I personally can't afford to drop $1000 a month into student loans just yet, and I can't imagine many others can as well... | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24361 Posts
On August 19 2020 06:00 Mohdoo wrote: Comparing the 2008 platform to the 2020 platform is like 2 different parties. It is easy to say it isn't perfect yet but to say Biden hasn't been pushed left seems crazy. Student loan forgiveness is absolutely giant. So Kasich is a liar that Republicans (or centrists that fear Biden moving left) shouldn't believe and was touted as bait for idiots? I mean obviously I think it takes a gratuitous amount of gullibility to take Democrats at their word when it comes to their plans, but the point is that they put mutually exclusive prognostications for a Biden presidency on display and Democrats seem completely oblivious to the cognitive dissonance that should cause for observers. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22609 Posts
On August 19 2020 06:33 JimmiC wrote: There is not a whole lot you can do about private schools. What you should have is a public option that is good enough where you have a set rate (the rate can be set locally, doesn't have to be federal) in additional to a state/federal student loan at low rates (close to or at 0%).I agree but the debt is the symptom of allowing for profit private schools and letting them charge insanely high rates. One generation gets a free pass but futures? Is it realistic to always pay it at these high rates? If you put a good system in place it makes sense to forgive the old, bad, debt. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 19 2020 06:18 ShoCkeyy wrote: Dude, student loan debt is a virus in the US, syphoning all the hard worked money from anybody trying to enter the middle class. I personally got lucky and only have to pay $15k, but you know how long I've been paying $15k off for?... The interest alone on repaying student loans is fucking stupid. I have 6%... that means I have to pay over $1000 dollars a month to even hit my principal. Now imagine people who have $50k+ with 5-6% repayment interest. Not a lot of people can afford paying that interest alone. I personally can't afford to drop $1000 a month into student loans just yet, and I can't imagine many others can as well... Is that 6% per month, or per year? The only way you'd need to drop 1k+ a month to pay it off is if it's per month. If it's per month then that's predatory loan territory levels of financing, and absolutely should die in a fire. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24361 Posts
On August 19 2020 06:43 Danglars wrote: Elizabeth Warren, appointed to speak in the "Native American Caucus Meeting." Oh, this is too rich. I love it. oh ffs it is real...After Warren's DNA debacle (and ignoring the Water protectors) she is actually speaking in the Native American Caucus Meeting... | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22609 Posts
On August 19 2020 06:47 JimmiC wrote: Certainly, forgiving student debt but not fixing the underlying problem of ridiculous tuition costs sets a bad precedent and makes people expect to be bailed out later.I agree with that. I even think you could use this current money to start to fix the system and take over and pay off the existing loans with some very favorable terms. Whether that is 0 interest, or long delays until you have to payback, some forgiveness when people graduate, whatever. I just think that paying off now basically encourages the current system to charge more and people to willingly take on this huge debt expecting it to get forgiven again. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 19 2020 06:20 GreenHorizons wrote: So Kasich is a liar that Republicans (or centrists that fear Biden moving left) shouldn't believe and was touted as bait for idiots? I mean obviously I think it takes a gratuitous amount of gullibility to take Democrats at their word when it comes to their plans, but the point is that they put mutually exclusive prognostications for a Biden presidency on display and Democrats seem completely oblivious to the cognitive dissonance that should cause for observers. Kasich is demonstrably full of shit when comparing the 2008 platform to the 2020 platform. I don't mind it at all. I don't think Kasich will scare people away. Bernie have a great speech about why progressives should support Biden. People who are further left than listening to Bernie were never going to vote for Biden. That's fine. Obama and Clinton didn't get that vote either. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24361 Posts
On August 19 2020 07:18 Mohdoo wrote: Kasich is demonstrably full of shit when comparing the 2008 platform to the 2020 platform. I don't mind it at all. I don't think Kasich will scare people away. Bernie have a great speech about why progressives should support Biden. People who are further left than listening to Bernie were never going to vote for Biden. That's fine. Obama and Clinton didn't get that vote either. I think you're misunderstanding the critique. Obviously I have one for people that follow politicians over policy but the point was about who Kasich was there to court. People focus on Democrats complacency with the naked cynicism of inviting someone like Kasich (who was basically the worst before Trump and hasn't changed his policy prescriptions since they thought that). I'm pointing out he's courting Republicans that Democrats have to believe are too stupid to notice "Kasich is demonstrably full of shit" while believing it is obvious enough to ridicule people to Biden's left for doubting. EDIT: I could even make sense of that if they weren't supposed to be the fabled "reasonable Republicans" and gullible morons at the same time. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 19 2020 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think you're misunderstanding the critique. Obviously I have one for people that follow politicians over policy but the point was about who Kasich was there to court. People focus on Democrats complacency with the naked cynicism of inviting someone like Kasich (who was basically the worst before Trump and hasn't changed his policy prescriptions since they thought that). I'm pointing out he's courting Republicans that Democrats have to believe are too stupid to notice "Kasich is demonstrably full of shit" while believing it is obvious enough to ridicule people to Biden's left for doubting. I think it comes down to what we SPECIFICALLY think Kasich is promising. I think Kasich is trying to reassure republicans the sky won't fall if Trump loses. What did Kasich say to make you think he's saying Biden will govern as a conservative? | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 19 2020 06:14 JimmiC wrote: I don't think student loan forgiveness is good policy. It is treating the symptom and not the cause. And it helps middle class people get comfortable sooner rather than bring more to the middle class. Student loan debt was effectively a way for the government to massively raise taxes on those with the least political power (poor milennials) while avoiding pissing off those with the most (Boomers and the wealthy). It was simply a transfer of funding from state funds to the pockets of individuals (combined with ballooning administrative pay. Superintendents make 4-5x what a teacher makes on average, while University presidents can make 100-300x, for no reason, as far as I can tell). It wasn't what it was originally intended as, but it's what it turned into. Now that Millenials are starting to grasp power (largest voting bloc, even if they have a somewhat lower participation), there was no way in hell it was going to remain the status quo. You can't levy a 1/2 of a mortgage worth of debt on the majority of an entire generation at the age of 18 and expect the economy to function. The inevitability didn't make me take out more loans, but it does make me reluctant to pay more than the minimum on them. The amount of student loan debt is insane, and there was no real choice : a four year degree was almost required to work as a grocery bagger during the great recession. Now, student loan forgiveness without reforming the basic structure of loans would be stupid, but I won't be surprised if it happens that way. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24361 Posts
On August 19 2020 07:41 Mohdoo wrote: I think it comes down to what we SPECIFICALLY think Kasich is promising. I think Kasich is trying to reassure republicans the sky won't fall if Trump loses. What did Kasich say to make you think he's saying Biden will govern as a conservative? Biden governing conservatively is a primary indication that will continue. His refusal of even modest social democratic policy is another. The plethora of Republicans speaking at the DNC convention is another. The people floated for his administration is another. There's more... As far as Kasich's DNC comments specifically (rather than the problematic nature of platforming someone with such incompatible positions/legislative history juxtaposed to Democrats ostensible policy positions), he specifically argued against the notion that Biden could be pushed left. They fear Joe may turn sharp left and leave them behind. I don’t believe that... you know, no one pushes Joe around. I won't quibble over what "sharp" means to someone like Kasich. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On August 19 2020 07:51 Nevuk wrote: Student loan debt was effectively a way for the government to massively raise taxes on those with the least political power (poor milennials) while avoiding pissing off those with the most (Boomers and the wealthy). It was simply a transfer of funding from state funds to the pockets of individuals (combined with ballooning administrative pay. Superintendents make 4-5x what a teacher makes on average, while University presidents can make 100-300x, for no reason, as far as I can tell). It wasn't what it was originally intended as, but it's what it turned into. Now that Millenials are starting to grasp power (largest voting bloc, even if they have a somewhat lower participation), there was no way in hell it was going to remain the status quo. You can't levy a 1/2 of a mortgage worth of debt on the majority of an entire generation at the age of 18 and expect the economy to function. The inevitability didn't make me take out more loans, but it does make me reluctant to pay more than the minimum on them. The amount of student loan debt is insane, and there was no real choice : a four year degree was almost required to work as a grocery bagger during the great recession. Now, student loan forgiveness without reforming the basic structure of loans would be stupid, but I won't be surprised if it happens that way. Very well said, though I think "millenials grasping power" is quite the hyperbole. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27394 Posts
On August 19 2020 09:03 mierin wrote: Very well said, though I think "millenials grasping power" is quite the hyperbole. Indeed. One of those things I very much wish was more the case The overall system is a mess, UK seems to be travelling down a similar path too, albeit to lesser extremes. I’m curious if there are places around that have kept both tuition prices down and avoided insane qualification inflation | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 19 2020 09:03 mierin wrote: Very well said, though I think "millenials grasping power" is quite the hyperbole. Well, I did say "starting to". They obviously aren't running anything yet. Perhaps I should have phrased it as "starting to be able to", which is more what I was getting at. They are aging into the age when they start to become more reliable voters (seriously, millenials vote at the same rates that boomers did when they were younger. It's just an age thing. younger people vote less, unless the candidates are also very young), are the largest voting bloc, and are starting to have representation on the national stage. It wasn't until 2018 that more than a few millennials were even eligible to run for the house, and it didn't help that until 2018 most prominent members of the age group politically were republicans, who have been roundly rejected by their age group. | ||
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