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On August 20 2020 20:52 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him. Why? You already know the answer. Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going. Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc... DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting.
Hm no. You can really have a bad opinion of the guy from your side without approving or agreeing with the other side.
People who answer pollsters that they approve Trump are not being asked wether or not they like democrats. They are asked about Trump.
I am also baffled that so many people keep following this deplorable, incompetent, narcissistic man child. It just speaks volume about them.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
On August 20 2020 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 20:52 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him. Why? You already know the answer. Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going. Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc... DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting. Hm no. You can really have a bad opinion of the guy from your side without approving or agreeing with the other side. People who answer pollsters that they approve Trump are not being asked wether or not they like democrats. They are asked about Trump. I am also baffled that so many people keep following this deplorable, incompetent, narcissistic man child. It just speaks volume about them.
Maybe these people agree with his policies.
Telling yourself these Trump voters are all terrible people sounds more like a rationalization than a serious attempt to figure out the answer why they are voting for Trump.
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On August 20 2020 21:57 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 20 2020 20:52 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him. Why? You already know the answer. Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going. Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc... DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting. Hm no. You can really have a bad opinion of the guy from your side without approving or agreeing with the other side. People who answer pollsters that they approve Trump are not being asked wether or not they like democrats. They are asked about Trump. I am also baffled that so many people keep following this deplorable, incompetent, narcissistic man child. It just speaks volume about them. Maybe these people agree with his policies. Telling yourself these Trump voters are all terrible people sounds more like a rationalization than a serious attempt to figure out the answer why they are voting for Trump.
Even if you agree with his policies, disregarding how much of a complete asshole he is, his nastiness, his divisiveness, his complete lack of every single quality that make a decent human being makes you in my opinion quite a terrible person.
Same thing that even if you are left wing, approving of, say, Maduro makes you quite a deplorable person too.
And let us be clear: I am not talking about voting for Trump, I talk about approving him.
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On August 20 2020 21:57 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 20 2020 20:52 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him. Why? You already know the answer. Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going. Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc... DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting. Hm no. You can really have a bad opinion of the guy from your side without approving or agreeing with the other side. People who answer pollsters that they approve Trump are not being asked wether or not they like democrats. They are asked about Trump. I am also baffled that so many people keep following this deplorable, incompetent, narcissistic man child. It just speaks volume about them. Maybe these people agree with his policies. Telling yourself these Trump voters are all terrible people sounds more like a rationalization than a serious attempt to figure out the answer why they are voting for Trump. I question the sanity of anyone that looks at Trumps response to Covid and thinks he is doing a good job.
Plus calling them terrible doesn't have to be a rationalisation. Trump has done plenty of terrible things that people who support him can be considered terrible for supporting those policies.
Inhumane policies like the children put on display in cages along the border. Openly racist actions like his muslin travel bans. Attacks on free press, women, veterans you name it.
I can consider someone a terrible person for supporting that without having to do so as a way of justifying 'hating' the other side.
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On August 20 2020 21:20 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m still unsure why one can’t disapprove of Trump in a poll and still end up voting for him over Biden, or otherwise disapprove of most of the Dem platform. They’re separate albeit linked things.
You can dislike Trump's personality and temperament or even the job he's done so far with handling COVID-19, but in the end he does act the spearhead of your beliefs and party. If installing conservative judges, cutting taxes and repealing regulations, sticking it to the deep state and liberals, curtailing immigration, a more America-centric foreign policy, maintaining a Republican-led Senate and punching back in the culture war strikes you as a positive, then you can say Trump has done a good job. There's also the partisanship of people tending to vote within their comfort zones and on two or so key issues that matter near and dear to their hearts that the other party won't ever win you over on, like abortion and gun rights in this case.
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Won’t be the last fraud charge brought against someone doing Trump-related fundraising, that’s for sure.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
On August 20 2020 22:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 21:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 20 2020 20:52 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him. Why? You already know the answer. Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going. Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc... DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting. Hm no. You can really have a bad opinion of the guy from your side without approving or agreeing with the other side. People who answer pollsters that they approve Trump are not being asked wether or not they like democrats. They are asked about Trump. I am also baffled that so many people keep following this deplorable, incompetent, narcissistic man child. It just speaks volume about them. Maybe these people agree with his policies. Telling yourself these Trump voters are all terrible people sounds more like a rationalization than a serious attempt to figure out the answer why they are voting for Trump. I question the sanity of anyone that looks at Trumps response to Covid and thinks he is doing a good job. Plus calling them terrible doesn't have to be a rationalisation. Trump has done plenty of terrible things that people who support him can be considered terrible for supporting those policies. Inhumane policies like the children put on display in cages along the border. Openly racist actions like his muslin travel bans. Attacks on free press, women, veterans you name it. I can consider someone a terrible person for supporting that without having to do so as a way of justifying 'hating' the other side.
Do you think decent people could vote for Trump?
If they could, what do you imagine their reasons could be?
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On August 20 2020 22:57 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 21:20 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m still unsure why one can’t disapprove of Trump in a poll and still end up voting for him over Biden, or otherwise disapprove of most of the Dem platform. They’re separate albeit linked things.
You can dislike Trump's personality and temperament or even the job he's done so far with handling COVID-19, but in the end he does act the spearhead of your beliefs and party. If installing conservative judges, cutting taxes and repealing regulations, sticking it to the deep state and liberals, curtailing immigration, a more America-centric foreign policy, maintaining a Republican-led Senate and punching back in the culture war strikes you as a positive, then you can say Trump has done a good job. There's also the partisanship of people tending to vote within their comfort zones and on two or so key issues that matter near and dear to their hearts that the other party won't ever win you over on, like abortion and gun rights in this case.
His approval amongst Republicans still seems overly high even with these factors, which I do agree are factors. I suppose people answer in a ‘do you want the Republican who currently happens to be Trump?’ rather than in assessing him in isolation.
The Republican Party is a pretty broad church, aside from folks who value basic competence in dealing with a pandemic, there are clearly some clashes between various camps on ideological bases too.
I’m a bit spoiled with consuming mostly this thread and largely ignoring the outside world, where I would encounter this sports team partisanship far more regularly. So amongst the ostensible left in here the general rhetoric is still pretty damn critical of Biden, elsewhere I’m sure it’s waving the blue flag and proclaiming Biden as amazing.
I do get him having broad favourability, it’s quite how high that is my confusion really.
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There should not be a single person with an iq over 95 that could say they fully approve of Donald trump. There are not many crossections of political or societal beliefs, that are compatible with his person. Take evangelicals, the amount of swallowing your beliefs to approve of the person trump needs to be insane. Considering that Christian values are among their core beliefs, the man should be hated by them. There is simply no rational explanation left why the whole republican party adopted this child as their messiah. There is no reason the republican party could not nominate a normal person with the same lack of policy and run with that.
Meanwhile the democratic base is so hateful to the 90% of democrats they don't agree with on everything, it's ridiculous.
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On August 21 2020 00:08 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 22:57 PhoenixVoid wrote:On August 20 2020 21:20 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m still unsure why one can’t disapprove of Trump in a poll and still end up voting for him over Biden, or otherwise disapprove of most of the Dem platform. They’re separate albeit linked things.
You can dislike Trump's personality and temperament or even the job he's done so far with handling COVID-19, but in the end he does act the spearhead of your beliefs and party. If installing conservative judges, cutting taxes and repealing regulations, sticking it to the deep state and liberals, curtailing immigration, a more America-centric foreign policy, maintaining a Republican-led Senate and punching back in the culture war strikes you as a positive, then you can say Trump has done a good job. There's also the partisanship of people tending to vote within their comfort zones and on two or so key issues that matter near and dear to their hearts that the other party won't ever win you over on, like abortion and gun rights in this case. His approval amongst Republicans still seems overly high even with these factors, which I do agree are factors. I suppose people answer in a ‘do you want the Republican who currently happens to be Trump?’ rather than in assessing him in isolation. The Republican Party is a pretty broad church, aside from folks who value basic competence in dealing with a pandemic, there are clearly some clashes between various camps on ideological bases too. I’m a bit spoiled with consuming mostly this thread and largely ignoring the outside world, where I would encounter this sports team partisanship far more regularly. So amongst the ostensible left in here the general rhetoric is still pretty damn critical of Biden, elsewhere I’m sure it’s waving the blue flag and proclaiming Biden as amazing. I do get him having broad favourability, it’s quite how high that is my confusion really.
Might have to do with Trump isolating the more moderate and Never Trumper Republicans from the party and the remaining Republicans are firm, unshakable supporters who lend him that plus 90% approval rate. If you feel politically homeless from the GOP, you may identify as an independent or even changed to the Democratic Party.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On August 21 2020 00:34 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2020 00:08 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 20 2020 22:57 PhoenixVoid wrote:On August 20 2020 21:20 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m still unsure why one can’t disapprove of Trump in a poll and still end up voting for him over Biden, or otherwise disapprove of most of the Dem platform. They’re separate albeit linked things.
You can dislike Trump's personality and temperament or even the job he's done so far with handling COVID-19, but in the end he does act the spearhead of your beliefs and party. If installing conservative judges, cutting taxes and repealing regulations, sticking it to the deep state and liberals, curtailing immigration, a more America-centric foreign policy, maintaining a Republican-led Senate and punching back in the culture war strikes you as a positive, then you can say Trump has done a good job. There's also the partisanship of people tending to vote within their comfort zones and on two or so key issues that matter near and dear to their hearts that the other party won't ever win you over on, like abortion and gun rights in this case. His approval amongst Republicans still seems overly high even with these factors, which I do agree are factors. I suppose people answer in a ‘do you want the Republican who currently happens to be Trump?’ rather than in assessing him in isolation. The Republican Party is a pretty broad church, aside from folks who value basic competence in dealing with a pandemic, there are clearly some clashes between various camps on ideological bases too. I’m a bit spoiled with consuming mostly this thread and largely ignoring the outside world, where I would encounter this sports team partisanship far more regularly. So amongst the ostensible left in here the general rhetoric is still pretty damn critical of Biden, elsewhere I’m sure it’s waving the blue flag and proclaiming Biden as amazing. I do get him having broad favourability, it’s quite how high that is my confusion really. Might have to do with Trump isolating the more moderate and Never Trumper Republicans from the party and the remaining Republicans are firm, unshakable supporters who lend him that plus 90% approval rate. If you feel politically homeless from the GOP, you may identify as an independent or even changed to the Democratic Party.
Have they left the party though? At least in identification for polling purposes anyway
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On August 20 2020 23:16 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2020 22:12 Gorsameth wrote:On August 20 2020 21:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 20 2020 20:52 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 20 2020 16:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 20 2020 16:13 Starlightsun wrote:I'm hearing that his approval rating among Republicans is still like 80 or 90+ percent? I just can't fathom it. We've been listening to the tail end of the DNC speeches before our local news. While some of it is offkey, cringe and insincere, it's still such a breath of fresh air compared to the guy that can't go a single sentence without compulsively lying or insulting somebody. I truly can't understand how people can look at the record of last four years, and the response to covid, and think that Trump is even a remotely reasonable option. Why not talk to people who are going to vote for Trump and ask them why? Surely they have reasons, or they wouldn't vote for him. Why? You already know the answer. Because they don't like Democrat policies, Biden, the way Democrat run cities like Portland, Seattle, NYC are going. Then ask Democrat voters why they're voting Biden.Because they don't like Trump, Trump's policies etc... DNC convention may be worth tuning into Thursday for Biden's acceptance speech.Could be interesting. Hm no. You can really have a bad opinion of the guy from your side without approving or agreeing with the other side. People who answer pollsters that they approve Trump are not being asked wether or not they like democrats. They are asked about Trump. I am also baffled that so many people keep following this deplorable, incompetent, narcissistic man child. It just speaks volume about them. Maybe these people agree with his policies. Telling yourself these Trump voters are all terrible people sounds more like a rationalization than a serious attempt to figure out the answer why they are voting for Trump. I question the sanity of anyone that looks at Trumps response to Covid and thinks he is doing a good job. Plus calling them terrible doesn't have to be a rationalisation. Trump has done plenty of terrible things that people who support him can be considered terrible for supporting those policies. Inhumane policies like the children put on display in cages along the border. Openly racist actions like his muslin travel bans. Attacks on free press, women, veterans you name it. I can consider someone a terrible person for supporting that without having to do so as a way of justifying 'hating' the other side. Do you think decent people could vote for Trump? If they could, what do you imagine their reasons could be? There was an argument back in 2016 about 'how bad can it really be'. That no longer flies in 2020. So I would be inclined to go with, No. I don't think a decent human being would vote for Trump.
A person can disagree with the Democrats and not want to vote for them, and agree with general Republican policies of individual rights, small government or fiscal conservatory (ignoring for now that the GOP hasn't stood for those principles in god knows how long) but to vote/support Trump means ignoring a lot of basic human rights, common decency and at this point even general principles of Democracy.
In a better democratic system I would advise those people to find congressmen who do hold the values they believe in and vote for them while leaving the Presidency blank or writing someone else in but this is America so you don't even really get much choice in congressmen.
As for the mentions of party affiliation
https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx
shows an increase in independents at a cost of Republicans and to a less extend Democrats aswell.
But are they Republicans who do not support the party under Trump or are they just embarrased to say they are Republicans while still actually supporting Trump? I donno but his 30-40% approval among independents probably comes from the latter.
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On August 21 2020 00:25 Broetchenholer wrote:
There should not be a single person with an iq over 95 that could say they fully approve of Donald trump. There are not many crossections of political or societal beliefs, that are compatible with his person. Take evangelicals, the amount of swallowing your beliefs to approve of the person trump needs to be insane. Considering that Christian values are among their core beliefs, the man should be hated by them. There is simply no rational explanation left why the whole republican party adopted this child as their messiah. There is no reason the republican party could not nominate a normal person with the same lack of policy and run with that.
Meanwhile the democratic base is so hateful to the 90% of democrats they don't agree with on everything, it's ridiculous.
There’s no rational reason to say “they fully approve of Donald Trump.” I hear mostly mixed or mixed-positive evaluations. I don’t actually see an argument here. You don’t have to personally like his moral character to decide somebody that isn’t going to use the weight of government to punish religious institutions is preferable to somebody who pledges he will.
And in case 2015-2016 was too long ago, there were several candidates that had similar beliefs and better personal lives and more stability than Trump, but they split the vote so many ways that Trump slipped through. People like Kasich (couldn’t win primary, stayed in) and Rubio (ditto) made Trump the nominee. Vice-versa, Buttigieg and Klobuchar did endorse Biden suddenly, guaranteeing Biden instead of Bernie would win nomination.
Try nominating someone upstanding when all the media attention is focused on one guy (CNN live trump rallies/empty podium, Joe Scarborough callins from Trump all the time), and all the candidates opposed stay in way past the time to drop and unite behind the vote leader. It’s one of the most obvious explanations everybody misses.
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You're not punishing anyone by forcing them to respect the law.
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On August 21 2020 02:25 Erasme wrote:
You're not punishing anyone by forcing them to respect the law.
Jim Crow was law, as were many other unjust laws. Saying it’s this simple is asinine.
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I suspect that half the reason people tell pollsters they approve of Trump is because they hate the liberal media. Trump holds up a giant middle finger to the media and that has always been the basis of a lot of his support.
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Nancy Pelosi endorsed Kennedy over Markey
Further abandoning the pretense that Democrats are moving left, or that the incumbent favoritism wasn't specifically a conservative political effort and could be abandoned to replace an incumbent with someone to their political right.
Sheds light on AOC's first election too.
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EPT
