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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On July 11 2020 04:05 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 03:15 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 11 2020 03:10 Nevuk wrote:
Currently it just means that only tribal and federal law enforcement can operate there - OK state has no jurisdiction to enforce their laws.
As far as monetary figure, no, there's no price for most tribes. Look up how much the Govt has setting aside for the black hills and you'll see. Now, that's holy land while this is more likely to be spite than it is actually wanting all the land - the land they actually want is much further east before they got relocated, but they'll cling to this bitterly if they can't have that.
It may lead to them being able to levy taxes on Tulsa instead of OK, but that's many court rulings away. The logic given is what would lead to it - technically, the treaty giving the land to them was never revoked. But the SC only ruled on the jurisdiction issue. Eviction is impossible. Trying to evict US citizens from their homes would be the fastest way to get congress to take away their rights to the land. That is one helluva sentence, isn't it... The "their" in the sentence was actually meant to be the US citizens, but your reading is better. Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 03:48 Danglars wrote:On July 11 2020 03:28 Nevuk wrote:Tucker Carlson is currently engaging in a war of words against Tammy Duckworth, a double amputee veteran. After she criticized Trump's speech, he claimed she hated america. After she responded, he doubled down and called her a coward and a moron. She's since written an op-ed response where she says he doesn't know anything about patriotism. This is important when it would usually be nothing much, as Trump has taken advice directly from Fox hosts. Carlson has always been one of the more reasonable of them, having convinced Trump to not go to war over an unmanned drone being shot down, among other things (being better on covid than the others, for one). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/opinion/tammy-duckworth-tucker-carlson.html She alleged that Trump spent all his time talking about dead traitors, something that was factually untrue about the speech. Read MoreShe tweeted not too long ago about covering herself up in stars and stripes, going as Mt Rushmore next year ... and now can't remember anything good about it, because it's stolen land. ExSo it's a tiny bit more than just a war of words. She lied about a speech, and never explained how her thinking changed from wanting to dress up as Mt Rushmore, to decrying the whole monument for being built on stolen land. War service does not shield you from criticism. As for Trump, his poll numbers for handling the emergency are down, and he gets criticized/cut from airtime for press briefings when he has them, and criticized when he doesn't. His message discipline has been typically disastrous. His chances of winning re-election are down and I suspect he knows it. True, but it's still a bad fight for Carlson to pick. Calling a purple heart recipient an unpatriotic coward tends to not go over well, even when they're wrong. If he'd called her a liar there'd be no controversy at all, I think.
I mean, that’s the optics above facts argument that might win the day. Assaulting someone’s patriotism is a step beyond saying they further a brand of radicalism that strikes deep at the heart of America. Just like people kneeling for the flag is insane bad optics, and loses on the optics, but the fact (at the time) was he tried to make a different statement. You probably know what I mean.
On the flip side, Carlson benefits from the thought that he’s wrong more than half the time, but his hearts in the right place. That’s the often-rejected meta point in this thread: that cowardice standing up for founding father statues is rampant, so people taking a stand against it get optics credit, even when they err in the application.
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On July 11 2020 04:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 04:27 Danglars wrote:On July 11 2020 04:04 Simberto wrote:From the Covid Thread: On July 11 2020 03:34 Danglars wrote:On July 11 2020 03:24 Simberto wrote:
It would be a lot easier to feel that we are all in this together if a relevant part of your population, incited by your president and a bunch of other politicians, wasn't actively harming any reasonable effort to deal with the pandemic by being complete morons and not adhering to basic safety precautions.
I do have the feeling in Germany that people generally feel that we are in this together. Because we have a pretty low amount of idiots trying to fight against stuff like wearing masks or social distancing.
In the US, this is different. Your president and a bunch of his followers did call the coronavirus a hoax, so calling them "covid-deniers" isn't really that far out of line. And your country IS currently suffering from the results of this. I hope you and your covid-denying friends are happy with increased deaths in Germany. + Show Spoiler +
You see how little effort I have to put into smearing you with that, as he did with me.
Save it for people that are writing against masks, or calling the pandemic a hoax, to resort to such smears. Otherwise, yeah, Coronavirus is a partisan issue and you're doing the typical partisan ploy to bring politics into the conversation to smear others. And like I said otherwise, TeamLiquid should be above that. We all should be above that. This thread should not make absurd political connections to demonize other posters, in a thread that proscribes against politics. Period. Don't try to hem and haw around it if you can't bring yourself to make that conclusion, you won't fool any thinking person. I find it weird how you only seem to think that we "should be above it" when the "it" in question makes you look bad. Or are you saying that you no longer support Trump? That you would be willing to vote against Trump? If yes, then you haven't made your change of mind very obvious so far, but i greatly applaud you. If, on the other hand, you still support Trump, then you are still in favor of a covid-denier being president. That might not make you a covid-denier immediately, and i don't know if you personally made statements like trumps "hoax" statement. But it does put you in the same box as those. Covid shouldn't be a partisan issue. In any sane country, it isn't. In the US, you and your party did turn it into a partisan issue for utterly inexplicable reasons. And now, when it turns out that that was a really bad idea (which pretty much everyone knew from the start), you try to play the "we should be better than this" card. Yes, we should be. How about you start, and stop supporting an incompetent, covid-denying president that actively harms your country, both through maliciousness and through incompetence by not doing the things which everyone knows are effective against the disease. As long as you are still willing to vote for Trump and support Trump, you clearly don't see covid as a threat, because Trump has proven that he is not capable of dealing with it in any reasonable way, and actively blocks the things that need to be done for utterly inexplicable reasons. Your country needs to work together in this. Trump is actively harming your ability to work together by turning everything (including disease control, i have to repeat this because it is just so absurd) into a partisan issue. I am disgusted at the user in that thread to choose to make the statement regarding my happiness at increased dead. I know people here give aid whenever anyone gets called out for statements like that, and I’m asserting that political smear jobs should be kept in this thread and under the “dull roar” The whole atmosphere of saying somebody’s politics make them responsible, by proxy, for death is a cancer. It’s an absolute plague among society. I do expect to find people that think it will never come for them, or pretend to be totally cool with translated responsibility. They will always find someone else to blame for rising tribalism, and they 100% will never attribute personal responsibility for aiding and furthering it’s rise. Thank you for your contribution in making covid a partisan issue, and I hope you depart from this path for your own sake. God bless. It is not a partisan issue. There is a clear right and wrong response at this point. That Trump and many Republican's made it one is their fault. That you still support them well that make choices that will cause thousands to die and millions to suffer is your fault. If this makes your feel bad, which given your history of honesty is questionable at best, then you should stop walking the party line and start calling out the politicians you support to start doing the right things. Otherwise you are most certainly part of the problem. Deal with it.
Anyone that smears a poster for loving deaths, just like his covid-denying friends, loves division and furthers it in America. You’re arguing that you want it to be a partisan issue because you lack agency over your own actions. You’re responsible for what you say on this forum, not who some idiot thinks your friends are, and who some idiot thinks you like about covid dead. It’s a pandemic, and I am not on the side that wants to rip into political party when we discuss disease and hospitalizations. Partisanship is a cruel mistress, JimmiC, so stop serving it.
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On July 11 2020 04:39 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 04:32 JimmiC wrote:On July 11 2020 04:27 Danglars wrote:On July 11 2020 04:04 Simberto wrote:From the Covid Thread: On July 11 2020 03:34 Danglars wrote:On July 11 2020 03:24 Simberto wrote:
It would be a lot easier to feel that we are all in this together if a relevant part of your population, incited by your president and a bunch of other politicians, wasn't actively harming any reasonable effort to deal with the pandemic by being complete morons and not adhering to basic safety precautions.
I do have the feeling in Germany that people generally feel that we are in this together. Because we have a pretty low amount of idiots trying to fight against stuff like wearing masks or social distancing.
In the US, this is different. Your president and a bunch of his followers did call the coronavirus a hoax, so calling them "covid-deniers" isn't really that far out of line. And your country IS currently suffering from the results of this. I hope you and your covid-denying friends are happy with increased deaths in Germany. + Show Spoiler +
You see how little effort I have to put into smearing you with that, as he did with me.
Save it for people that are writing against masks, or calling the pandemic a hoax, to resort to such smears. Otherwise, yeah, Coronavirus is a partisan issue and you're doing the typical partisan ploy to bring politics into the conversation to smear others. And like I said otherwise, TeamLiquid should be above that. We all should be above that. This thread should not make absurd political connections to demonize other posters, in a thread that proscribes against politics. Period. Don't try to hem and haw around it if you can't bring yourself to make that conclusion, you won't fool any thinking person. I find it weird how you only seem to think that we "should be above it" when the "it" in question makes you look bad. Or are you saying that you no longer support Trump? That you would be willing to vote against Trump? If yes, then you haven't made your change of mind very obvious so far, but i greatly applaud you. If, on the other hand, you still support Trump, then you are still in favor of a covid-denier being president. That might not make you a covid-denier immediately, and i don't know if you personally made statements like trumps "hoax" statement. But it does put you in the same box as those. Covid shouldn't be a partisan issue. In any sane country, it isn't. In the US, you and your party did turn it into a partisan issue for utterly inexplicable reasons. And now, when it turns out that that was a really bad idea (which pretty much everyone knew from the start), you try to play the "we should be better than this" card. Yes, we should be. How about you start, and stop supporting an incompetent, covid-denying president that actively harms your country, both through maliciousness and through incompetence by not doing the things which everyone knows are effective against the disease. As long as you are still willing to vote for Trump and support Trump, you clearly don't see covid as a threat, because Trump has proven that he is not capable of dealing with it in any reasonable way, and actively blocks the things that need to be done for utterly inexplicable reasons. Your country needs to work together in this. Trump is actively harming your ability to work together by turning everything (including disease control, i have to repeat this because it is just so absurd) into a partisan issue. I am disgusted at the user in that thread to choose to make the statement regarding my happiness at increased dead. I know people here give aid whenever anyone gets called out for statements like that, and I’m asserting that political smear jobs should be kept in this thread and under the “dull roar” The whole atmosphere of saying somebody’s politics make them responsible, by proxy, for death is a cancer. It’s an absolute plague among society. I do expect to find people that think it will never come for them, or pretend to be totally cool with translated responsibility. They will always find someone else to blame for rising tribalism, and they 100% will never attribute personal responsibility for aiding and furthering it’s rise. Thank you for your contribution in making covid a partisan issue, and I hope you depart from this path for your own sake. God bless. It is not a partisan issue. There is a clear right and wrong response at this point. That Trump and many Republican's made it one is their fault. That you still support them well that make choices that will cause thousands to die and millions to suffer is your fault. If this makes your feel bad, which given your history of honesty is questionable at best, then you should stop walking the party line and start calling out the politicians you support to start doing the right things. Otherwise you are most certainly part of the problem. Deal with it. Anyone that smears a poster for loving deaths, just like his covid-denying friends, loves division and furthers it in America. You’re arguing that you want it to be a partisan issue because you lack agency over your own actions. You’re responsible for what you say on this forum, not who some idiot thinks your friends are, and who some idiot thinks you like about covid dead. It’s a pandemic, and I am not on the side that wants to rip into political party when we discuss disease and hospitalizations. Partisanship is a cruel mistress, JimmiC, so stop serving it.
I don't think anyone said that you like the deaths, just that you clearly don't care enough about them to consider changing your politics. It is very, very clear that one party in the US is actively aiding the pandemic.
And now you want to keep supporting them, but be absolved of this fact. Your party turned this partisan. In every country that didn't have rightwing crazies sabotaging any effort against the disease, it isn't partisan. It isn't partisan in Germany, for example.
The US (and maybe Brazil, which is kinda in the same situation with Bolsonaro as you are with Trump) are the only countries which have major political figures calling the pandemic a haux, who are actively fighting against people using masks, and who are generally sabotaging the fight against the disease in any way they can to please their own ego. And now you claim that the people who mention that that is really stupid, and that you should stop supporting the incompetent idiot who kills your citizens are partisan. This is beyond absurd. Facts exist. Not everything is relative. Not everything has two sides. Sometimes you are just wrong.
Start demanding from your republican politicians that they actually help in the fight against the disease instead of saying stupid shit like that the problem is not the disease, but the testing which makes you look bad because you suck at fighting the disease. Help making the country better. I thought republicans liked calling a spade a spade. Say that trump failed in dealing with the disease. Don't do this faux outrage thing that you love, where you claim that the real problem are the people mentioning the problem.
You know how this would immediately stop being partisan? If both parties supported reasonable measures. Sadly, one of them is crazy and does crazy shit, and also happens to be in power. That is what makes this partisan. Not the people saying it.
Or is this another of these "You need to be really nice to rightwing folks, or we are going to burn the country down, and then it is your fault" arguments?"
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I don't think anyone said that you like the deaths, just that you clearly don't care enough about them to consider changing your politics
This sums up a bipartisan consensus in the US on just about everything from healthcare to climate change to foreign policy to the economy.
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He’s referencing the Erasme quote, but also (willfully?) misunderstanding the “I hope you’re happy” idiom in a way that just confuses me. Honestly, though, I think Erasme was a bit too aggressive there, especially in a non-politics thread.
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I don’t generally like to just drop a tweet thread in here, but this one is talking about an issue I was discussing a little while back with current online discourse. And it might be relevant to the current dustup with Danglars?
https://twitter.com/millicentsomer/status/1281414272984027137?s=21
In this case, I think Erasme was reacting less to Danglars specifically and more to the (often cynical) use of the “rising cases, falling deaths” analysis in right-wing discourse (The Atlantic has a decent analysis of that phenomenon here). I’d consider plenty of that analysis worthy of mockery and scorn of the type Erasme gave (Dennis Prager’s “lockdown may be the greatest mistake in human history” comes to mind), but Danglars didn’t say any of that. Maybe he thinks it and is holding his tongue, but if we assume the shittiest possible version of other posters’ intents and arguments is true, the discussion won’t be very good.
I still disagree with Danglars’ post that Erasme was responding to (for reasons mostly enumerated in that Atlantic article), but I think Danglars wound up kind of unfairly serving as a proxy for Erasme’s frustration with a lot of cynical right-wing arguments in general.
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On July 11 2020 05:15 ChristianS wrote:
He’s referencing the Erasme quote, but also (willfully?) misunderstanding the “I hope you’re happy” idiom in a way that just confuses me. Honestly, though, I think Erasme was a bit too aggressive there, especially in a non-politics thread.
Probably the best defense I can hope for around these parts.
On July 11 2020 05:55 ChristianS wrote:I don’t generally like to just drop a tweet thread in here, but this one is talking about an issue I was discussing a little while back with current online discourse. And it might be relevant to the current dustup with Danglars? https://twitter.com/millicentsomer/status/1281414272984027137?s=21In this case, I think Erasme was reacting less to Danglars specifically and more to the (often cynical) use of the “rising cases, falling deaths” analysis in right-wing discourse (The Atlantic has a decent analysis of that phenomenon here). I’d consider plenty of that analysis worthy of mockery and scorn of the type Erasme gave (Dennis Prager’s “lockdown may be the greatest mistake in human history” comes to mind), but Danglars didn’t say any of that. Maybe he thinks it and is holding his tongue, but if we assume the shittiest possible version of other posters’ intents and arguments is true, the discussion won’t be very good. I still disagree with Danglars’ post that Erasme was responding to (for reasons mostly enumerated in that Atlantic article), but I think Danglars wound up kind of unfairly serving as a proxy for Erasme’s frustration with a lot of cynical right-wing arguments in general.
I honestly think hospitalizations should be discussed in terms of hospitals dealing with capacity concerns and what should be done in the case of hospital beds meeting demands. The "flatten the curve" dialogue was not about preventing the spread, but lowering the rate so hospitals are not overwhelmed. I think that's an important dialogue in the case of phased reopening. But people bringing right-wing baggage with them into that discussion to do some kind of group responsibility dialogue hurt the debate. And I know people that have something huge happen in their life, and suddenly they're extreme and extremely vocal on an issue, just looking for a fight, so I want to express some humility here. I don't know what's going on, and his ideas may evolve on this topic through this or through an actual in-person conversation with something that disagrees with him.
I'll transition from Erasme for a moment, because what that individual said and people that thought it was fine centers around real people and not ideas (and can be mistaken for attacks on the person, and not their current orientation on ideas). The steps that governors and public health professionals take that hurt their message and show caprice in their orders simply empower people that don't want to wear masks or want to have a few friends over for 4th of July. If the ideological vantage point is "these people are one step removed from covid-denying hoaxers, supporting a President that hasn't managed the crisis well, thus sharing group responsibility for some of the deaths" then the societal response is increased disobedience. It's the old photo op of unmasked governor marching with thousands packed into a street to protest police brutality, then telling people that churches can't reopen for fear of spreading covid. I'm still sitting at home twiddling my thumbs with my roommate, but I have very little condemnation for friends that have a barbecue with their friends to "protest injustice and say that Black Lives Matter." Their own elected leaders have shown they play favorites, that COVID isn't a good reason to delay mass protests if the cause is very important, so that is their protest of double standards. I think that kind of dialogue is too easily dismissed in the debates I've been hearing. But I did already write a megapost on that topic, so I'll leave it there.
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Folks, let's not rip into Republicans for basically acting like the disease doesn't exist and getting thousands more killed for no reason. You wouldn't want to appear uncivil or anything.
What you use your words to do matters more than just the words you use. Pretending you're "above it" by not giving your politicians the shit they've more than earned, and I say that as someone who thinks you should have some standards for your politicians, and using it as an excuse to defend them as they get vulnerable Americans needlessly killed, is sinister at best to me. Good luck winning arguments with people who don't understand, and then living with the nightmare you're making excuses for.
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Northern Ireland27368 Posts
‘Hasn’t handled the crisis well’ is a mite generous no?
I can’t really speak for how it is over in America land, we are terrible over here for mass use but distancing is pretty responsibly observed and there’s a certain sense of disaster camaraderie in society.
Working in retail for 60/70 hours a week the early days of lockdown I saw nothing even approaching the craziness one would see on Twitter from American Walmarts and the likes (the closest equivalent to where I’m regrettably employed)
Now perhaps there’s some part of the American collective psyche that says fuck you I’ve got mine, I’ll stockpile, I’ll not distance or wear a mask or whatever. Perhaps purely cultural, perhaps a consequence of a lack of safety nets that we enjoy over here.
That said having a President talking about hoaxes, making a point of not wearing a mask, hawking unproven/false treatments publicly etc...
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One of my fingers is in a splint atm (just overuse) so my about will be slightly shorter for these sources.
Last poll I saw 84% of americans are wearing a mask (per yougov - https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/lraqqdhd7j/econTabReport.pdf . Only 22% of Trump supportes said they'd never worn a mask).
The anti-Mask minority is extremely loud, but numbers are low in most states. Florida definitely has a lot, but that's definitely not the case in Ohio.
Trump is also going to publicly wear one tomorrow according to CNN, which I hope will reduce the antimasker numbers.
(CNN)As coronavirus cases surged in the Sun Belt in recent weeks, one Republican leader after another has come forward to publicly endorse face masks -- and model the practice themselves -- in an attempt to depoliticize their use as a public health precaution.
On Saturday, the man who has stood in the way of those efforts is finally expected to join them.
President Donald Trump -- who has stubbornly refused to wear a mask in public, ridiculed those who have and done little to encourage his supporters to embrace the common sense public health measure -- has said he will wear a mask during a visit to Walter Reed National Medical Center on Saturday.
He is also expected to be photographed wearing it, a photo opportunity that some of the President's aides practically begged him to agree to and hope will encourage skeptical Trump supporters to do the same.
"I'm going to Walter Reed to see some of our great soldiers who have been injured. Badly injured. And also see some of our Covid workers, people who have such a great job," Trump said. "And I expect to be wearing a mask when I go into Walter Reed. You're in a hospital so I think it's a very appropriate thing."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/10/politics/trump-mask-walter-reed-coronavirus/
The issue is that the governors of some states have been so slow to react. Florida, Texas had really bad policies in place as little as a week ago, while Ohio's main force behind their good response resigned (Amy Acton) and the Governor now does nothing out of fear of criticism.
The federal response has been really bad, but it's not behind the recent surges
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lol that's dedication Nevuk, kudos
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Northern Ireland27368 Posts
84% of Americans are wearing a mask?
That sounds like bollocks based on what’s been anecdotally reported here and in the Corona thread
I’d estimate it’s 5% tops over here
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Yeah, I doubt those numbers for sure.
a minute on google gave me this from April.
Asian countries hits 80/90%
No way there are as many people wearing a mask in the US as there are in Asia.
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I'd say folks not wearing masks properly, and not bothering to practice social distancing, definitely outnumber people just not wearing masks by an order of magnitude. However, I have seen plenty of both, and I genuinely don't think there's a significant difference there.
I've even seen insane shit like "mesh masks", which literally just have wide-open mesh instead of any kind of fabric, being sold and peddled to an anti-mask culture right now. Like you can go to the effort of remembering to wear a mask on your face, you'd just rather spite people who are trying not to get infected than do your part to fight this. People think this shit is ok because you have mixed messages coming out of governers across the country, and not one united message focused on saving American lives.
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On July 11 2020 05:55 ChristianS wrote:I don’t generally like to just drop a tweet thread in here, but this one is talking about an issue I was discussing a little while back with current online discourse. And it might be relevant to the current dustup with Danglars? https://twitter.com/millicentsomer/status/1281414272984027137?s=21In this case, I think Erasme was reacting less to Danglars specifically and more to the (often cynical) use of the “rising cases, falling deaths” analysis in right-wing discourse (The Atlantic has a decent analysis of that phenomenon here). I’d consider plenty of that analysis worthy of mockery and scorn of the type Erasme gave (Dennis Prager’s “lockdown may be the greatest mistake in human history” comes to mind), but Danglars didn’t say any of that. Maybe he thinks it and is holding his tongue, but if we assume the shittiest possible version of other posters’ intents and arguments is true, the discussion won’t be very good. I still disagree with Danglars’ post that Erasme was responding to (for reasons mostly enumerated in that Atlantic article), but I think Danglars wound up kind of unfairly serving as a proxy for Erasme’s frustration with a lot of cynical right-wing arguments in general.
To me, I find it weirdly odd how blame is levied with regards to COVID. Yeah, Trump is a dipshit, but in the US response is generally state-level (this is good, by the way), and the worst state with regards to C19 is NY and specifically with Cuomo's and NYC's response telling people to congregate, go to bars and restaurants, and forcing C19 positive elderly into SNF's with non-infected resulting in thousands of deaths. Yet, you don't really hear much about this, or that CA is in the same position as TX and FL. For better or worse you can't blame Trump for Cuomo's negligence and ineptness, DeSantis' decisions in FL, or Newsom's in CA. You can levy all the criticisms with his bullshit about masks and simplistic rhetoric with testing, but it seems to me that the people who only shout Trump just don't understand our federated system.
By the way the Atlantic article is good. I pointed out a lot of the same things a while ago and I'm still in the wait and see part about the deaths. By the way, it was the CDC in the beginning who told people to not wear masks lol (and who botched test kits, etc.) and the FDA regulatory bodies made early testing extremely prohibitive/banned in many aspects. My general point here is that Government in general is inept and incompetent, not just Trump. For those who look to Government to cure all ills it's a hard pillow to swallow.
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EPT
