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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
Northern Ireland26078 Posts
On July 11 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 09:52 ChristianS wrote:On July 11 2020 07:30 Danglars wrote:On July 11 2020 05:15 ChristianS wrote:
He’s referencing the Erasme quote, but also (willfully?) misunderstanding the “I hope you’re happy” idiom in a way that just confuses me. Honestly, though, I think Erasme was a bit too aggressive there, especially in a non-politics thread. Probably the best defense I can hope for around these parts. On July 11 2020 05:55 ChristianS wrote:I don’t generally like to just drop a tweet thread in here, but this one is talking about an issue I was discussing a little while back with current online discourse. And it might be relevant to the current dustup with Danglars? https://twitter.com/millicentsomer/status/1281414272984027137?s=21In this case, I think Erasme was reacting less to Danglars specifically and more to the (often cynical) use of the “rising cases, falling deaths” analysis in right-wing discourse (The Atlantic has a decent analysis of that phenomenon here). I’d consider plenty of that analysis worthy of mockery and scorn of the type Erasme gave (Dennis Prager’s “lockdown may be the greatest mistake in human history” comes to mind), but Danglars didn’t say any of that. Maybe he thinks it and is holding his tongue, but if we assume the shittiest possible version of other posters’ intents and arguments is true, the discussion won’t be very good. I still disagree with Danglars’ post that Erasme was responding to (for reasons mostly enumerated in that Atlantic article), but I think Danglars wound up kind of unfairly serving as a proxy for Erasme’s frustration with a lot of cynical right-wing arguments in general. I honestly think hospitalizations should be discussed in terms of hospitals dealing with capacity concerns and what should be done in the case of hospital beds meeting demands. The "flatten the curve" dialogue was not about preventing the spread, but lowering the rate so hospitals are not overwhelmed. I think that's an important dialogue in the case of phased reopening. But people bringing right-wing baggage with them into that discussion to do some kind of group responsibility dialogue hurt the debate. And I know people that have something huge happen in their life, and suddenly they're extreme and extremely vocal on an issue, just looking for a fight, so I want to express some humility here. I don't know what's going on, and his ideas may evolve on this topic through this or through an actual in-person conversation with something that disagrees with him. I'll transition from Erasme for a moment, because what that individual said and people that thought it was fine centers around real people and not ideas (and can be mistaken for attacks on the person, and not their current orientation on ideas). The steps that governors and public health professionals take that hurt their message and show caprice in their orders simply empower people that don't want to wear masks or want to have a few friends over for 4th of July. If the ideological vantage point is "these people are one step removed from covid-denying hoaxers, supporting a President that hasn't managed the crisis well, thus sharing group responsibility for some of the deaths" then the societal response is increased disobedience. It's the old photo op of unmasked governor marching with thousands packed into a street to protest police brutality, then telling people that churches can't reopen for fear of spreading covid. I'm still sitting at home twiddling my thumbs with my roommate, but I have very little condemnation for friends that have a barbecue with their friends to "protest injustice and say that Black Lives Matter." Their own elected leaders have shown they play favorites, that COVID isn't a good reason to delay mass protests if the cause is very important, so that is their protest of double standards. I think that kind of dialogue is too easily dismissed in the debates I've been hearing. But I did already write a megapost on that topic, so I'll leave it there. Yeah, we and others have gone back and forth on a lot of that before. I’ll resist the urge to dive into one of those disputes again (I was pretty sure you were mad at me after our last back-and-forth and still might be), but I will say that I understand why Erasme or Sim or Jimmi would have pretty thin patience for right-wing arguments attempting to diminish the magnitude of the pandemic and/or promote the merits of relaxing our countermeasures. From the start of this thing it’s been “almost contained” and “no worse than the flu” and “with suicides the economic damage of shutdown might be just as lethal” and “now that we have HCQ we don’t need to shut down” and the like. It’s hard to see anything other than panicked Trump supporters casting about for any defense or deflection they can grab. I should say I think that’s understandable. In the same way the pandemic has been a really hard time to be a libertarian, On the contrary, I think it's a great time to be a libertarian. It's so easy to show how useless and in the way the FDA is, the regulatory burdens on our institutions that cause untold damage, the general incompetence and danger of Government, etc. You know the first things they did that helped immensely? They stopped enforcing and did away with a huge number of dumb regulations. The FDA scrapped a bunch of regulations as well. Things became more free. I'm sure though once this C19 thing is over people will forget all about it and go back to status quo, but regardless it's astonishing how quickly these are ditched in emergencies which goes to show just how dumb they are in the first place. Of course, I'm sure you're just talking about closing businesses/lockdown like there's no argument against it.
Is it? Is it a good time to be a libertarian?
Are we talking the same time where people unless forced are happy to spread a virus around or am I out of touch?
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On July 11 2020 09:14 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 09:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
With reports of Trump calling Roger Stone to say he is commuting his sentence and Michael Cohen put back in prison, the only person in prison for the whole Russia Gate/Mueller investigation debacle is the guy who blew the whistle. Those are reports no more. Trump confirms it on his Twitter. Definitely a disgrace. If one person in the country deserves jail for their political acts, it is Roger stone( there is some room for debate on Flynn, but Stone has always been the worst of the worst) Trump retweeted this :
The FBI never had genuine evidence of collusion. All they had were stings (without great results) and Russian disinfo. Everything that followed was fruit of the poisonous tree.
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I don't think witness tampering and intimidation count as fruit of the poisonous tree...
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On July 11 2020 10:52 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 10:49 Nevuk wrote:
I don't think witness tampering and intimidation count as fruit of the poisonous tree... I was thinking that sounds like the crime itself is what Poison'd the tree, quite strange. I think this was a political move to try to get his base (and opponents) excited about something else. He is losing people willing, even in republican strongholds to argue his positions on Covid. This they can argue and distract with.
It’s a clumsy invocation of a constitutional rule of evidence where prosecutors are prevented from using evidence gathered in an unconstitutional way. Its relevance to Stone depends on whether one gets their legal news from far right rags or not.
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On July 11 2020 10:52 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 10:49 Nevuk wrote:
I don't think witness tampering and intimidation count as fruit of the poisonous tree... I was thinking that sounds like the crime itself is what Poison'd the tree, quite strange. I think this was a political move to try to get his base (and opponents) excited about something else. He is losing people willing, even in republican strongholds to argue his positions on Covid. This they can argue and distract with. While I disagree with it on many levels, this seems like a "good" move politically for him.
The basis of the investigation was collusion; stone would never have been subjected to investigation if not for an original allegation of collusion. But there was no good evidence of collusion. It was fruit of a poisonous tree. The pardon power is in place for this very purpose, to correct injustices in the system even when the system operated in accordance with its own technical standards.
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With Flynn it is possible to make the case that his only crimes were a result of the investigation for a strange lying to the fbi law. That's not the case for Stone. They didn't make him threaten to kill someone's dog to prevent testimony against him. There's a very long history to Stone that should have seen him jailed decades ago.
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@JimmiC
The USG is particularly egregious. If I had to sum up my polity - less expansive Government the better, the smaller the political unit the better, the more we adhere to Lockean/Jeffersonian principles the better.
As for other Governments, if you look at the data there is no correlation between Government edict and C19 rates. Japan never locked down and has low rates, other countries like Spain locked down and have far higher rates. So how would you define Government actions that worked and show their correlation with low R rates? I'm curious.
Now for sake of argument let's say that authoritarian policies produced beneficial outcomes, I'd still be against for the ratchet or leviathan effect (Robert Higgs).
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Charges are not evidence and Stone lost on all of his evidentiary challenges in court.
For the record and to reiterate, fruit of the poisonous tree is a constitutional doctrine that allows a defendant to make a showing and have evidence eliminated from the evidentiary record used to render a decision. Stone LOST on his challenges to the evidence used against him and was convicted. Saying the doctrine over and over again as though it should magically justify extraordinary extrajudicial relief for a cartoonishly villainous man is silly.
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On July 11 2020 11:15 farvacola wrote:
Charges are not evidence and Stone lost on all of his evidentiary challenges in court.
For the record and to reiterate, fruit of the poisonous tree is a constitutional doctrine that allows a defendant to make a showing and have evidence eliminated from the evidentiary record used to render a decision. Stone LOST on his challenges to the evidence used against him and was convicted. Saying the doctrine over and over again as though it should magically justify extraordinary extrajudicial relief for a cartoonishly villainous man is silly.
Ah yes, well if he's cartoonishly villainous then he must deserve to be in solitary confinement for something right? It's "fruit of a poisonous tree" in some sense of that phrase, which means it was an injustice. The pardon power is very well suited for stone's case.
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On July 11 2020 09:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Man if Trump's handling of the Corona was absolutely fucking flawless and his opponent was Joe Biden who stated man I think masks look pretty stupid, I'd rather not be seen wearing one, I'd still vote biden 100%. Danglars is a really conservative guy who has absolutely no home in the democrat party, expecting mishandling of a pandemic to change that isn't reasonable. It's sad that he's left with Trump because I'm sure he'd prefer a myriad of other republicans, but Covid handling isn't the primary reason why a person chooses a particular presidential candidate to vote for. Courts is still a legitimate reason if you happen to prefer republican policies, I don't understand what you guys are expecting beyond 'yeah, trump is an idiot and he shows it again here'.
I would like nothing better than Trump to have declared in January that politics were no longer his thing, and he'd like to go back to being a reality TV phenomenon. A competitive Republican primary, as we had in 2016, would be the right thing for the party.
On July 11 2020 10:10 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 09:42 Danglars wrote:On July 11 2020 09:34 JimmiC wrote:
@danglars that 1000th concern troll post where you strawman peoples points then ask for pity finally worked. We all feel ultra bad for you and realize that you have been the voice of reason. Why should you consider not voting for Trump when he is causing 1000's of deaths, that you mention that he could have handled it better is totally an appropriate response.
I imagine a future where everybody concerned with the future is dismissed as a concern troll. How dare we believe in something so pure in this world of partisanship! I'm not asking for brownie points for declaring Trump to have handled the crisis badly, nor do I seek your approval to say I've done enough penance to earn my own upright standing. I'm deeply sorry, and a little troubled, if I've given either impression. If you argued peoples actual points instead of doing what you do, it wouldn't be concern trolling. You have to stop doing what you are supposedly upset about to others in the same post that you are complaining. If you think Trumps good points (whatever those are too you) out weigh the bad points (whatever those are to you). Just don't be surprised if people disagree because not many are going to think that whatever it is that you liked is worth the human lives that are being lost and forever altered (remember recovered does not mean lasting implications). Your overly dramatic bring back civil discussion only work if you actually bring up points and don't hyperbolicly act as if your honor is hurt when people point out that Trump is not just missing the mark on the Covid thing he is doing a criminally bad job that is almost unfathomable to anyone who believes in the basics of science,math and data. Not to mention real world evidence that is just months old.
I said I'm not asking for brownie points for downrating Trump's performance, nor do I seek your approval for word count in decrying his acts, but I guess I'll have to add "submitting myself to your standards of concern trolling." They're too wrapped up in personal partisanship to be any useful standard of measure.
As I tire of pointing out, it's just the allegations of personal involvement in COVID deaths that I take issue with. My "honor" is not "hurt when people point out that Trump is not just missing the mark on the Covid thing." Re-read my posts to Wegandi and regarding Wombat if you truly believe this is some basic falling-short metric. They'll be very instructive in this matter. As for being overly dramatic, maybe you need to have more active people attacking you personally to gain context on that matter. I don't actively wish that on you, by the way.
On July 11 2020 11:22 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 11:15 farvacola wrote:
Charges are not evidence and Stone lost on all of his evidentiary challenges in court.
For the record and to reiterate, fruit of the poisonous tree is a constitutional doctrine that allows a defendant to make a showing and have evidence eliminated from the evidentiary record used to render a decision. Stone LOST on his challenges to the evidence used against him and was convicted. Saying the doctrine over and over again as though it should magically justify extraordinary extrajudicial relief for a cartoonishly villainous man is silly. Ah yes, well if he's cartoonishly villainous then he must deserve to be in solitary confinement for something right? It's "fruit of a poisonous tree" in some sense of that phrase, which means it was an injustice. The pardon power is very well suited for stone's case.
Damnit, Doodsmack, you're trying to pull me to the right on Roger Stone, that twitter troll, when two years ago your posts were another world away from that. He's a tough character to find sympathy for, but I don't pretend to have researched his particular case well.
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Even Barr said the conviction was "righteously justified" ... arguing that Stone shouldn't have been prosecuted is standing on a very lonely island consisting of Trump and a bare handful of allies.
This isn't even getting into the various constitutional issues raised - Stone apparently explicitly asked for a pardon in exchange for not turning on Trump.
Stone's behavior was convictable regardless of who he was doing it to. Take away the russian collusion angle, and he'd still have deserved jail.
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Anyone can stand on the sidelines and say "dont lie to the police" or "by admitting that he could have turned on trump he's admitting trump is a criminal." When the investigation is unjustified in the first place, that's the bigger wrong here.
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On July 11 2020 11:33 Nevuk wrote:Even Barr said the conviction was "righteously justified" ... arguing that Stone shouldn't have been prosecuted is standing on a very lonely island consisting of Trump and a bare handful of allies. This isn't even getting into the various constitutional issues raised - Stone apparently explicitly asked for a pardon in exchange for not turning on Trump. + Show Spoiler +Stone's behavior was convictable regardless of who he was doing it to. Take away the russian collusion angle, and he'd still have deserved jail.
Probably the best serious defense of Roger Stone is that he was the last ditch effort of a failed investigation to justify its means of existence. But, he did things eminently convictable and probably deserved a 1-3 year sentence for the crime. The scholars may debate this better when details from Barr and Durham come to light.
It's a very nasty business, all things considered.
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On July 11 2020 11:06 Wegandi wrote:
@JimmiC
The USG is particularly egregious. If I had to sum up my polity - less expansive Government the better, the smaller the political unit the better, the more we adhere to Lockean/Jeffersonian principles the better.
As for other Governments, if you look at the data there is no correlation between Government edict and C19 rates. Japan never locked down and has low rates, other countries like Spain locked down and have far higher rates. So how would you define Government actions that worked and show their correlation with low R rates? I'm curious.
Now for sake of argument let's say that authoritarian policies produced beneficial outcomes, I'd still be against for the ratchet or leviathan effect (Robert Higgs).
That really goes against all data we have. Lockdowns, masks and social distancing works amazingly well, and I can testify that as soon as the governments lift them people start to gather like flies in pubs and bars, ignoring all precautions.
As for no correlation between Government edict and C19 rate, that is simply completely false.
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There have been times when I have had trouble with people's perspectives, and it makes me want to continue pursuing discussions to find how the disagreement can exist. And then I see a defense of Roger Stone and suddenly its so liberating. I don't need to worry at all because the disconnect is so gigantic that there's really no reason to bother.
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On July 11 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 09:52 ChristianS wrote:On July 11 2020 07:30 Danglars wrote:On July 11 2020 05:15 ChristianS wrote:
He’s referencing the Erasme quote, but also (willfully?) misunderstanding the “I hope you’re happy” idiom in a way that just confuses me. Honestly, though, I think Erasme was a bit too aggressive there, especially in a non-politics thread. Probably the best defense I can hope for around these parts. On July 11 2020 05:55 ChristianS wrote:I don’t generally like to just drop a tweet thread in here, but this one is talking about an issue I was discussing a little while back with current online discourse. And it might be relevant to the current dustup with Danglars? https://twitter.com/millicentsomer/status/1281414272984027137?s=21In this case, I think Erasme was reacting less to Danglars specifically and more to the (often cynical) use of the “rising cases, falling deaths” analysis in right-wing discourse (The Atlantic has a decent analysis of that phenomenon here). I’d consider plenty of that analysis worthy of mockery and scorn of the type Erasme gave (Dennis Prager’s “lockdown may be the greatest mistake in human history” comes to mind), but Danglars didn’t say any of that. Maybe he thinks it and is holding his tongue, but if we assume the shittiest possible version of other posters’ intents and arguments is true, the discussion won’t be very good. I still disagree with Danglars’ post that Erasme was responding to (for reasons mostly enumerated in that Atlantic article), but I think Danglars wound up kind of unfairly serving as a proxy for Erasme’s frustration with a lot of cynical right-wing arguments in general. I honestly think hospitalizations should be discussed in terms of hospitals dealing with capacity concerns and what should be done in the case of hospital beds meeting demands. The "flatten the curve" dialogue was not about preventing the spread, but lowering the rate so hospitals are not overwhelmed. I think that's an important dialogue in the case of phased reopening. But people bringing right-wing baggage with them into that discussion to do some kind of group responsibility dialogue hurt the debate. And I know people that have something huge happen in their life, and suddenly they're extreme and extremely vocal on an issue, just looking for a fight, so I want to express some humility here. I don't know what's going on, and his ideas may evolve on this topic through this or through an actual in-person conversation with something that disagrees with him. I'll transition from Erasme for a moment, because what that individual said and people that thought it was fine centers around real people and not ideas (and can be mistaken for attacks on the person, and not their current orientation on ideas). The steps that governors and public health professionals take that hurt their message and show caprice in their orders simply empower people that don't want to wear masks or want to have a few friends over for 4th of July. If the ideological vantage point is "these people are one step removed from covid-denying hoaxers, supporting a President that hasn't managed the crisis well, thus sharing group responsibility for some of the deaths" then the societal response is increased disobedience. It's the old photo op of unmasked governor marching with thousands packed into a street to protest police brutality, then telling people that churches can't reopen for fear of spreading covid. I'm still sitting at home twiddling my thumbs with my roommate, but I have very little condemnation for friends that have a barbecue with their friends to "protest injustice and say that Black Lives Matter." Their own elected leaders have shown they play favorites, that COVID isn't a good reason to delay mass protests if the cause is very important, so that is their protest of double standards. I think that kind of dialogue is too easily dismissed in the debates I've been hearing. But I did already write a megapost on that topic, so I'll leave it there. Yeah, we and others have gone back and forth on a lot of that before. I’ll resist the urge to dive into one of those disputes again (I was pretty sure you were mad at me after our last back-and-forth and still might be), but I will say that I understand why Erasme or Sim or Jimmi would have pretty thin patience for right-wing arguments attempting to diminish the magnitude of the pandemic and/or promote the merits of relaxing our countermeasures. From the start of this thing it’s been “almost contained” and “no worse than the flu” and “with suicides the economic damage of shutdown might be just as lethal” and “now that we have HCQ we don’t need to shut down” and the like. It’s hard to see anything other than panicked Trump supporters casting about for any defense or deflection they can grab. I should say I think that’s understandable. In the same way the pandemic has been a really hard time to be a libertarian, On the contrary, I think it's a great time to be a libertarian. It's so easy to show how useless and in the way the FDA is, the regulatory burdens on our institutions that cause untold damage, the general incompetence and danger of Government, etc. You know the first things they did that helped immensely? They stopped enforcing and did away with a huge number of dumb regulations. The FDA scrapped a bunch of regulations as well. Things became more free. I'm sure though once this C19 thing is over people will forget all about it and go back to status quo, but regardless it's astonishing how quickly these are ditched in emergencies which goes to show just how dumb they are in the first place. Of course, I'm sure you're just talking about closing businesses/lockdown like there's no argument against it. Its a self forfilling prophecy and the Republicans chief method of operating for a long time.
Put people in charge who will do a bad job and then point at the bad job they themselves did and say that government is bad and useless.
They want to get rid of Obamacare because it would be a big Democratic victory so they tear pieces out of it until it no longer works and then they point and shout "see, it doesn't work".
Its a real-life implementation of the meme picture of the guy putting a rod in his own wheel to crash.
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On July 11 2020 18:23 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:On July 11 2020 09:52 ChristianS wrote:On July 11 2020 07:30 Danglars wrote:On July 11 2020 05:15 ChristianS wrote:
He’s referencing the Erasme quote, but also (willfully?) misunderstanding the “I hope you’re happy” idiom in a way that just confuses me. Honestly, though, I think Erasme was a bit too aggressive there, especially in a non-politics thread. Probably the best defense I can hope for around these parts. On July 11 2020 05:55 ChristianS wrote:I don’t generally like to just drop a tweet thread in here, but this one is talking about an issue I was discussing a little while back with current online discourse. And it might be relevant to the current dustup with Danglars? https://twitter.com/millicentsomer/status/1281414272984027137?s=21In this case, I think Erasme was reacting less to Danglars specifically and more to the (often cynical) use of the “rising cases, falling deaths” analysis in right-wing discourse (The Atlantic has a decent analysis of that phenomenon here). I’d consider plenty of that analysis worthy of mockery and scorn of the type Erasme gave (Dennis Prager’s “lockdown may be the greatest mistake in human history” comes to mind), but Danglars didn’t say any of that. Maybe he thinks it and is holding his tongue, but if we assume the shittiest possible version of other posters’ intents and arguments is true, the discussion won’t be very good. I still disagree with Danglars’ post that Erasme was responding to (for reasons mostly enumerated in that Atlantic article), but I think Danglars wound up kind of unfairly serving as a proxy for Erasme’s frustration with a lot of cynical right-wing arguments in general. I honestly think hospitalizations should be discussed in terms of hospitals dealing with capacity concerns and what should be done in the case of hospital beds meeting demands. The "flatten the curve" dialogue was not about preventing the spread, but lowering the rate so hospitals are not overwhelmed. I think that's an important dialogue in the case of phased reopening. But people bringing right-wing baggage with them into that discussion to do some kind of group responsibility dialogue hurt the debate. And I know people that have something huge happen in their life, and suddenly they're extreme and extremely vocal on an issue, just looking for a fight, so I want to express some humility here. I don't know what's going on, and his ideas may evolve on this topic through this or through an actual in-person conversation with something that disagrees with him. I'll transition from Erasme for a moment, because what that individual said and people that thought it was fine centers around real people and not ideas (and can be mistaken for attacks on the person, and not their current orientation on ideas). The steps that governors and public health professionals take that hurt their message and show caprice in their orders simply empower people that don't want to wear masks or want to have a few friends over for 4th of July. If the ideological vantage point is "these people are one step removed from covid-denying hoaxers, supporting a President that hasn't managed the crisis well, thus sharing group responsibility for some of the deaths" then the societal response is increased disobedience. It's the old photo op of unmasked governor marching with thousands packed into a street to protest police brutality, then telling people that churches can't reopen for fear of spreading covid. I'm still sitting at home twiddling my thumbs with my roommate, but I have very little condemnation for friends that have a barbecue with their friends to "protest injustice and say that Black Lives Matter." Their own elected leaders have shown they play favorites, that COVID isn't a good reason to delay mass protests if the cause is very important, so that is their protest of double standards. I think that kind of dialogue is too easily dismissed in the debates I've been hearing. But I did already write a megapost on that topic, so I'll leave it there. Yeah, we and others have gone back and forth on a lot of that before. I’ll resist the urge to dive into one of those disputes again (I was pretty sure you were mad at me after our last back-and-forth and still might be), but I will say that I understand why Erasme or Sim or Jimmi would have pretty thin patience for right-wing arguments attempting to diminish the magnitude of the pandemic and/or promote the merits of relaxing our countermeasures. From the start of this thing it’s been “almost contained” and “no worse than the flu” and “with suicides the economic damage of shutdown might be just as lethal” and “now that we have HCQ we don’t need to shut down” and the like. It’s hard to see anything other than panicked Trump supporters casting about for any defense or deflection they can grab. I should say I think that’s understandable. In the same way the pandemic has been a really hard time to be a libertarian, On the contrary, I think it's a great time to be a libertarian. It's so easy to show how useless and in the way the FDA is, the regulatory burdens on our institutions that cause untold damage, the general incompetence and danger of Government, etc. You know the first things they did that helped immensely? They stopped enforcing and did away with a huge number of dumb regulations. The FDA scrapped a bunch of regulations as well. Things became more free. I'm sure though once this C19 thing is over people will forget all about it and go back to status quo, but regardless it's astonishing how quickly these are ditched in emergencies which goes to show just how dumb they are in the first place. Of course, I'm sure you're just talking about closing businesses/lockdown like there's no argument against it. Its a self forfilling prophecy and the Republicans chief method of operating for a long time. Put people in charge who will do a bad job and then point at the bad job they themselves did and say that government is bad and useless. They want to get rid of Obamacare because it would be a big Democratic victory so they tear pieces out of it until it no longer works and then they point and shout "see, it doesn't work". Its a real-life implementation of the meme picture of the guy putting a rod in his own wheel to crash.
Its actually a great time to be a cop right now what with all the disorder around, it just kind of proves the needs for cops, right?
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EPT
