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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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IyMoon
United States1249 Posts
On April 02 2020 02:23 JohnDelaney wrote: Has the "Global Health Security Index" permanently discredited itself? ![[image loading]](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/19790.jpeg) Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. We probably had a really great plan, then got punched in the face really hard and it went to shit | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23446 Posts
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patermatrix
64 Posts
On April 02 2020 02:46 GreenHorizons wrote: As obviously wrong as the US and UK are on that list I'm interested as to how shitty their metrics must have been to also get SK and China so wrong. China is probably as bad as the US, they just don't publish any numbers. SK on the other hand seems to have really nailed their reaction to it. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23446 Posts
On April 02 2020 02:49 patermatrix wrote: China is probably as bad as the US, they just don't publish any numbers. SK on the other hand seems to have really nailed their reaction to it. I know the conspiracy theories on China's numbers are popular but I haven't seen anything supporting that besides the urn thing (which would indicate to me the remains are being processed normally as opposed to a cover up). There's no doubt the US is undercounting covid cases/deaths (and has been for weeks) based on administrative incompetence and lack of resources (like tests) alone. In that way I imagine the numbers from China aren't precise, but there's no reason to think that they are being more deceptive than the US is (or even comparable when we consider the lies Trump told). | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
On April 01 2020 13:17 JimmiC wrote: Hopefully it gets the message through to the people who trust Trump implicitly that this is serious and going to cause major major issues. It is disturbing that he was not giving out out truthful and accurate information before, but better that he is now than never. The white house suggested 100k to 240k possibly die although they hoped and believed if people take the right step it could be lower. https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/white-house-projects-100k-to-240k-us-deaths-from-virus/ar-BB11YKw4?li=AAggNb9 And that this guy is getting investigated is good news, better if their are actual consequences. https://www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824958381/justice-department-looking-into-senators-stock-selloff I have friends who think it's still a hoax. And if it's not a hoax, Trump was trying to combat the issue since his Impeachment, and the DNC stopped him.... Mental gymnastics. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21944 Posts
On April 02 2020 02:34 IyMoon wrote: yeah, it doesn't matter that you had a good preparation when you ignore that plan when the actual crisis happens.Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. We probably had a really great plan, then got punched in the face really hard and it went to shit | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On April 02 2020 02:56 GreenHorizons wrote: I know the conspiracy theories on China's numbers are popular but I haven't seen anything supporting that besides the urn thing (which would indicate to me the remains are being processed normally as opposed to a cover up). There's no doubt the US is undercounting covid cases/deaths (and has been for weeks) based on administrative incompetence and lack of resources (like tests) alone. In that way I imagine the numbers from China aren't precise, but there's no reason to think that they are being more deceptive than the US is (or even comparable when we consider the lies Trump told). The way that China has changed its methodology frequently, made clear strides to reduce press availability, and went back and forth several times on its quarantine policy... well at the very least it certainly raises suspicion that the way they're trying to push the "plague's done, turn the economy back on" story is incomplete. When everything suggests the story is worse than advertised, it's not particularly far-fetched to assume that the official story is off-base. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25966 Posts
On April 02 2020 02:34 IyMoon wrote: Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. We probably had a really great plan, then got punched in the face really hard and it went to shit Do love the Iron Mike quote but I mean compared to other places the US wasn’t even punched in the face that hard, to continue the boxing analogy they got knocked unconscious by some exploratory jabbing. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23446 Posts
On April 02 2020 03:13 LegalLord wrote: The way that China has changed its methodology frequently, made clear strides to reduce press availability, and went back and forth several times on its quarantine policy... well at the very least it certainly raises suspicion that the way they're trying to push the "plague's done, turn the economy back on" story is incomplete. When everything suggests the story is worse than advertised, it's not particularly far-fetched to assume that the official story is off-base. I mean the presumption I'd make is that every country (certainly the US has been) are both downplaying the negatives and playing up their successes. Trump giving himself the best possible rating for his handling, and bringing out the my pillow guy are more egregious propaganda than I've seen from China (or anywhere else in my limited exposure) regarding this. On April 02 2020 03:15 Wombat_NI wrote: Do love the Iron Mike quote but I mean compared to other places the US wasn’t even punched in the face that hard, to continue the boxing analogy they got knocked unconscious by some exploratory jabbing. I'd say more like one of those elaborate walk-ins and then we face planted getting in the ring and then the bell rung with our face in the mat. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ZerOCoolSC2
9005 Posts
I'd probably give Vietnam, Japan, and SK the benefit of doubt since they locked it down immediately. (Also helps they're all very homogeneous in their culture). | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23446 Posts
On April 02 2020 04:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: The difference is that we can rely on health experts to a degree to give us the information that the white house isn't. That we can freely look at the numbers being reported and say "Well, this looks a lot serious than trump is trying to pass off." Whereas the Chinese machine is clearly not giving the whole picture to make it seem as if they reigned in the disease. Any major country/nation reporting very low numbers is cause to pause and think critically and skeptically at the numbers. I'd probably give Vietnam, Japan, and SK the benefit of doubt since they locked it down immediately. (Also helps they're all very homogeneous in their culture). I think it only makes sense if one assumes the total dominance of a Chinese dictatorship and security state then it is very reasonable to think that with an extensive lockdown and thorough contact tracing they would outperform nations like SK on that side of the response. Where the hiding would presumably come from (still trapped in western conceptions of China imo) is their medical system not performing as well as it did. To that point the concept would be the hospitals they popped up in the critical areas weren't real or weren't staffed or didn't have the kind of protocols they say prevented their healthcare workers from getting sick. I love a good conspiracy as much as the next guy but by all appearances/reporting that was legit too. Like I said, they were doing things like not counting asymptomatic people (we can't even spare the tests to test them unless they are rich or a celebrity in the US), and other things that likely reduce the precision of the data but the primary driver I've seen in most arguments about the reliability of China's data has been a refusal to accept how poorly western nations are handling this (on their own and in bipartisan fashion at the local to national levels) and trying to scapegoat China. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7376 Posts
I'm curious how the real numbers look throughout China, since the focus is always on Wuhan. I think just like, a week ago or so, the sports bar I used to go to was allowed to open back up by in the government in Shanghai. Part of what makes the US such a joke is that we got to see it coming, we're a culture without public transit almost at all, and we all love our individual houses with space away from others. If we took this vaguely seriously we could probably do great the isolation bit, it'd come naturally, but we don't take anything seriously because nothing bad could ever happen to the U.S. of A? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ZerOCoolSC2
9005 Posts
On April 02 2020 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote: I think it only makes sense if one assumes the total dominance of a Chinese dictatorship and security state then it is very reasonable to think that with an extensive lockdown and thorough contact tracing they would outperform nations like SK on that side of the response. Where the hiding would presumably come from (still trapped in western conceptions of China imo) is their medical system not performing as well as it did. To that point the concept would be the hospitals they popped up in the critical areas weren't real or weren't staffed or didn't have the kind of protocols they say prevented their healthcare workers from getting sick. I love a good conspiracy as much as the next guy but by all appearances/reporting that was legit too. Like I said, they were doing things like not counting asymptomatic people (we can't even spare the tests to test them unless they are rich or a celebrity in the US), and other things that likely reduce the precision of the data but the primary driver I've seen in most arguments about the reliability of China's data has been a refusal to accept how poorly western nations are handling this (on their own and in bipartisan fashion at the local to national levels) and trying to scapegoat China. Refer to Zambrah's first paragraph. That alone should have you questioning what is coming out of there. And no where in my post did I say anything about the US, so why you think it pertinent to turn this around to a "western world is scapegoating China because of incompetence" is amusing to say the least. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On April 02 2020 04:44 Zambrah wrote: With China sheer population density is always a factor, even if they nailed all of their preventative stuff in Wuhan I guarantee its spread far and wide. High density transport to a from all around the country, people REALLY pack in in China, theres just so much contact with a metric shit ton of other people during the average day in China if you dont basically exclusively use a car for transit and work in a building that doesnt have many people working there at any given time. The real key to this is Chinese New Year. You're talking in general, but the holiday that causes the most travel in the entire world occurred in this time period. It's very easy to have a patient 31 slip through like SK even with a great surveillance state. However, it seems like it would be impossible to trace out with all the travel going on for the holiday. Especially to the more rural areas that likely don't have as much cctv. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23446 Posts
On April 02 2020 05:12 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Refer to Zambrah's first paragraph. That alone should have you questioning what is coming out of there. And no where in my post did I say anything about the US, so why you think it pertinent to turn this around to a "western world is scapegoating China because of incompetence" is amusing to say the least. I've said I don't think they're much if any more accurate than others (South Korea serves as an example of using the same data at the same time as the US and just doing better than western nations). Also that when the AP reports that Italy, France, and Spain are running out of body bags and not counting elderly people that die in nursing homes they'd rather say "China must be lying" than "We're fucking up" Seeing as how it first really got attention in WA after it ravaged a nursing home and dozens of symptomatic employees couldn't get tested weeks into March I think, given the reporting about Europe, we might look at a discrepancy in retirement/nursing homes and the conditions there for why some nations are seeing dramatically different deaths. That perhaps besides the statistical factors at play that have been discussed in the Corona thread, comorbids and senior care may be one of the distinguishing factors between higher and lower deaths (accounting for real infection rates rather than measured). A very important one for the US with a lot of senior facilities in less than ideal condition. Which is to say if we want to lower our death count, we should be taking a systematic approach to bracing senior facilities not looking to blame China who will have to bail us out of this in more than one way. | ||
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