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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23294 Posts
On September 24 2019 08:13 farvacola wrote: I fear that ship has sailed, but yes, speaking seriously, he ought to go the way of Hickenlooper. Yeah he ruled that out already but he's a politician so they are just words. But he's probably done for when it comes to the Senate in Texas after his "we're coming for your guns" thing at the debate. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23294 Posts
I'm less optimistic than she is, I think they know perfectly well what they are doing and banking on some sort of walled/underground cities and space travel | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12262 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7902 Posts
This is so incredibly messed up I don’t understand why Americans are not in the streets asking for his resignation. Is it me or that level of corruption is unprecedented in american history? I don’t see anything that compares with using the nations foreign policy in such a way. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23294 Posts
On September 24 2019 15:40 Biff The Understudy wrote: Well, so, Trump froze hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to Ukraine to pressure its leaders to give him dirt on a political opponent. This is so incredibly messed up I don’t understand why Americans are not in the streets asking for his resignation. Is it me or that level of corruption is unprecedented in american history? I don’t see anything that compares with using the nations foreign policy in such a way. I can't imagine how or why that would be the thing? Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy that has, while Trump's been in office, chopped up a journalist living in the US, bombed school buses and hospitals, and is starving Yemen. So naturally the US has sent troops to defend... Foreign aid for political dirt is kids stuff in comparison to climate collapse and imperialism imo. EDIT: I've seen that story as a distraction generally (so I'm not too familiar with the details) but I guess if he was trying to plant a dead hooker in Biden's bed or something that could be something of note. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28685 Posts
I mean my sample size isn't great but I've basically noticed that climate is the one political issue my pupils tend to know something about and care about. Seen fights happen over littering, lotta kids wanting to go vegetarian, kids literally having 'pick up plastic from the street and beach' as a hobby, climate strikes happening, the parties that think climate by far trumping every other issue in matter of importance getting 40% of votes from the mock high school elections (same parties totaling at around 20% in the real elections). It's all moving too slowly, and it's so sad how we actually could have started doing stuff 50 years ago, which would have made all the difference.  | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7902 Posts
On September 24 2019 16:00 GreenHorizons wrote: I can't imagine how or why that would be the thing? Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy that has, while Trump's been in office, chopped up a journalist living in the US, bombed school buses and hospitals, and is starving Yemen. So naturally the US has sent troops to defend... Foreign aid for political dirt is kids stuff in comparison to climate collapse and imperialism imo. EDIT: I've seen that story as a distraction generally (so I'm not too familiar with the details) but I guess if he was trying to plant a dead hooker in Biden's bed or something that could be something of note. You don’t see the problem in using the US foreign policy to leverage help against a political opponent. Wow. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7902 Posts
On September 24 2019 16:11 Liquid`Drone wrote: thunberg is fantastic. Her rage is spot on and it's depressing how apathetic most adults are. The one thing that does fill me with optimism is that the upcoming generation is so far ahead of their parents regarding protecting climate and environment. I mean my sample size isn't great but I've basically noticed that climate is the one political issue my pupils tend to know something about and care about. Seen fights happen over littering, lotta kids wanting to go vegetarian, kids literally having 'pick up plastic from the street and beach' as a hobby, climate strikes happening, the parties that think climate by far trumping every other issue in matter of importance getting 40% of votes from the mock high school elections (same parties totaling at around 20% in the real elections). It's all moving too slowly, and it's so sad how we actually could have started doing stuff 50 years ago, which would have made all the difference. I think it’s quite amazing too, and that girl is absolutely awesome, but remember we are in Norway. I remember polish friends throwing plastic bottles in the woods because someone was paid to clean those things up, and they were actually rather decent fellows. I hope Thunberg and her generation don’t end up representing a small proportion of first world, eco friendly people. Because that won’t be enough to make a difference. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28685 Posts
On September 24 2019 16:22 Biff The Understudy wrote: You don’t see the problem in using the US foreign policy to leverage help against a political opponent. Wow. thats not what he's saying, he's saying the us is guilty of much worse crimes in yemen than they are in ukraine, and people inclined to protest and ask for his resignation are already doing it, people that aren't already doing it aren't gonna be swayed by this. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23294 Posts
On September 24 2019 16:22 Biff The Understudy wrote: You don’t see the problem in using the US foreign policy to leverage help against a political opponent. Wow. + Show Spoiler + Of course I see the problem. I was pointing out "to get help against a political opponent" is hardly as unique or dramatic an addendum to foreign aid as you make it sound or something that would rouse the public to the streets. It's definitely not by any stretch a "level of corruption...unprecedented in american history" unless we just attribute a whole lot of "corruption" to "the way the system is intended to function" EDIT: Yes, what Drone said. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12262 Posts
On September 24 2019 16:26 Biff The Understudy wrote: I think it’s quite amazing too, and that girl is absolutely awesome, but remember we are in Norway. I remember polish friends throwing plastic bottles in the woods because someone was paid to clean those things up, and they were actually rather decent fellows. I hope Thunberg and her generation don’t end up representing a small proportion of first world, eco friendly people. Because that won’t be enough to make a difference. It's not just that you're eco-friendly or you're not and we hope there's enough of us. People adapt their views, and they can be influenced. This was amazing, there's no way it wasn't influential. The conservative reactions are at their screechiest, which to me shows desperation, they know this isn't good for them, especially not since they can't openly promote their solution for climate change (which, let me state this again, is to do nothing, reinforce borders and let the brown people die). Maybe they're wrong to despair, I don't know, but today I'm thinking positive thoughts. | ||
zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
On September 24 2019 16:11 Liquid`Drone wrote: thunberg is fantastic. Her rage is spot on and it's depressing how apathetic most adults are. The one thing that does fill me with optimism is that the upcoming generation is so far ahead of their parents regarding protecting climate and environment. I mean my sample size isn't great but I've basically noticed that climate is the one political issue my pupils tend to know something about and care about. Seen fights happen over littering, lotta kids wanting to go vegetarian, kids literally having 'pick up plastic from the street and beach' as a hobby, climate strikes happening, the parties that think climate by far trumping every other issue in matter of importance getting 40% of votes from the mock high school elections (same parties totaling at around 20% in the real elections). It's all moving too slowly, and it's so sad how we actually could have started doing stuff 50 years ago, which would have made all the difference. Over here Norway is this mythical land where everything is great. Does the Norway environmental movement propose measures that actually work regarding climate change? From the few things you mentioned it sounds very similar to what I see in Germany. People care deeply about charismatic issues like paper bags and plastic in the oceans, to the point that they would rather hurt the climate more if it makes them feel better at supermarket checkout. Germany has one of the highest recycling rates in the world and we are now felling trees to make paper bags because people feel icky about plastic bags when shopping. Our Green party is the best example of this with every other proposal effectively accelerating climate change for some charismatic issue that makes people feel good. Anyway I am rambling I went to FFF last week because I feel very much about the issue but the speeches and signs at the rallye turned me off the whole movement. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7902 Posts
On September 24 2019 16:33 Liquid`Drone wrote: thats not what he's saying, he's saying the us is guilty of much worse crimes in yemen than they are in ukraine, and people inclined to protest and ask for his resignation are already doing it, people that aren't already doing it aren't gonna be swayed by this. I think those are two totally different things. The US taking bad, immoral decisions is one problem, the president using foreign policy to leverage his political interest is another. If Trump shot someone in the head on 5th avenue, it would be a pretty effing big problem even though the US kills a lot of people in its wars and his decisions have led to many people dying. And anyone brushing it off would be out of his mind. I’m just amazed people don’t react. This is treasonous shit, and the path to dictatorship. If people find okish that the POTUS blackmails a country to sink his political opponent, the country is really fucked. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28685 Posts
On September 24 2019 17:41 zatic wrote: Over here Norway is this mythical land where everything is great. Does the Norway environmental movement propose measures that actually work regarding climate change? From the few things you mentioned it sounds very similar to what I see in Germany. People care deeply about charismatic issues like paper bags and plastic in the oceans, to the point that they would rather hurt the climate more if it makes them feel better at supermarket checkout. Germany has one of the highest recycling rates in the world and we are now felling trees to make paper bags because people feel icky about plastic bags when shopping. Our Green party is the best example of this with every other proposal effectively accelerating climate change for some charismatic issue that makes people feel good. Anyway I am rambling I went to FFF last week because I feel very much about the issue but the speeches and signs at the rallye turned me off the whole movement. I mean the actual green party in Norway wants to phase out norwegian oil by 2035 or something. It's unrealistic and would definitely cause economic downturn, but that would make a difference. Other environmentally focused parties are more on the 'let's not look for more oil' (which should be a bare minimum). I also just read parts of a new report, where they highlight the possibilities of oceanic wind turbines and stuff like that, where our coastline make us a potential future frontrunner.. Norway is a culprit in climate change, the mythical land status is not deserved here. Our government of the past 6 years has included the only party still featuring any climate skeptics, and while we have been spending significant amounts of money protecting rainforest etc, we also have a semi-state owned companies that buy soy and aluminum from deforested rainforest areas. We have the by far biggest amount of electric cars in the world (per capita obv), but aside from government incentives making people favor them, it's also because oil money made us collectively rich enough for a bigger percentage of our population to buy new cars than you see elsewhere.. The good tends to have some relation to the bad. From my understanding perhaps the best thing Norway can do, which I don't hear that much of from mainstream politicians, is to use our stockholder power to influence major companies to take more climate-friendly future action. (We have already been using this influence to combat 'excess executive pay' in companies where we are a major stockholder). I mean we do have high emissions per capita, but with only having 5 million people, us dropping to 0 emissions per capita would not, independently, be that big of a deal. (Of course, this is not a valid argument not to enact action, because adopting that perspective means every country cept India and China can commit to non-action. I do believe all countries have a near equal responsibility to reduce their per capita emissions to a sustainable level). | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23294 Posts
On September 24 2019 17:50 Biff The Understudy wrote: I think those are two totally different things. The US taking bad, immoral decisions is one problem, the president using foreign policy to leverage his political interest is another. If Trump shot someone in the head on 5th avenue, it would be a pretty effing big problem even though the US kills a lot of people in its wars and his decisions have led to many people dying. And anyone brushing it off would be out of his mind. I’m just amazed people don’t react. This is treasonous shit, and the path to dictatorship. If people find okish that the POTUS blackmails a country to sink his political opponent, the country is really fucked. You're simply mistaken to believe that the president using foreign policy to leverage his political interest is rare or that this an especially heinous example, it's just shameless. The reason they aren't in the streets is simple and one I've mentioned recently. They still have a naive faith in Democrats, media, and the criminal justice system and their ability to hold Trump accountable. A belief based in an affinity for process and systems (and comfort within them) rather than history. EDIT: To borrow your 5th Ave. example. If he did shoot someone on 5th ave people wouldn't take to the streets either for the same reason. Faith the criminal justice system would hold him accountable despite proceedings obviously lingering past the 2020 election. It's not like Democrats would arrest the president even if they could find law enforcement willing to do it for them. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28685 Posts
On September 24 2019 17:50 Biff The Understudy wrote: I think those are two totally different things. The US taking bad, immoral decisions is one problem, the president using foreign policy to leverage his political interest is another. If Trump shot someone in the head on 5th avenue, it would be a pretty effing big problem even though the US kills a lot of people in its wars and his decisions have led to many people dying. And anyone brushing it off would be out of his mind. I’m just amazed people don’t react. This is treasonous shit, and the path to dictatorship. If people find okish that the POTUS blackmails a country to sink his political opponent, the country is really fucked. If putting in the effort, I'm quite confident I could pull up 50+ statements from trump that from my perspective make him completely unfit to say, take care of my children for one evening. That is a smaller responsibility than taking care of a country tbh - I'd happily let Erna Solberg babysit my future kid without ever considering voting for her. This really doesn't move the needle for me. Politics has become competition in the US. (Or, it has always been competition, now it's just obvious). People want to see their side win more than they want their side to be good (because even a bad person from my side is better than a decent person from the other side). I don't really see why Trump voters should care significantly more about him pressuring a country to give him dirt to make him more likely to win, than they should care about him cancelling the Iran deal because it was Obama's deal. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21783 Posts
On September 24 2019 12:04 GreenHorizons wrote: Nah, they are banking on not being alive when shit hits the fan and simply don't give a shit about future generations.Greta Thunberg spoke at the UN and shamed the world for their inaction on climate change. I'm less optimistic than she is, I think they know perfectly well what they are doing and banking on some sort of walled/underground cities and space travel Its easy to ignore the negative impact of something when your not going to be around to experience it. | ||
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Vivax
22027 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4731 Posts
I am so fed up of those people sitting in their cosy homes powered by wind turbines made from rare-earth metals extracted in China, driving an electric car built in Germany from materials extracted in Brazil and Canada in factories powered by Russian gas, eating 'enviromental friendly diet' consisting of soy and avokodo which had to be shipped to them half across the World telling me how bad i am. Or even worse travelling across the world and being outraged about industry which he or she is using on daily basis producing heckaton of pollution. Maybe when he/she looks at her fresh new Iphone/Samsung/Huawei/Xiaomi device she thinks about Chinese rare-earth miners extracting needed materials, American/Chinese silicon foundry workers puryfing the silicon, Arabian oil field/rafinery workers which all contributed to making of that device and perhaps even Indeonsian/Indian sailors which shipped it across the oceans to store close to him or her. But i highly doubt it. Sorry everyone about the rant. | ||
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farvacola
United States18832 Posts
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