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I think something worth recognizing is that Warren is plan B for both the progressive and neoliberal wings. As much as people are saying "If not Bernie, at least Warren" the opposite side is saying "If not Biden, at least Warren."
It's all about mitigating damage and I agree with GH on this that the neolibs are more ability to sway opinions by virtue of being the establishment.
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Sorry about the image, I posted it and removed it immediately afterwards because I didn't feel like researching whether it was deliberately anti-Sanders or just happenstance.
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On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. This is what I mean by not reconciling. I'm saying that a clear media bias is manipulating the voting public with the intention to lead them to your conclusion with that specific poll and narrative, despite the contradictions I've pointed out in this exchange and previously (and more will come). That Warren is "fine" is also the narrative being driven by the same corrupt forces she's supposed to be challenging, and that should be troubling, if not disqualifying. (EDIT2: Obama should have taught any of us that lived through his campaign/admin that).
I understand that bad people want Bernie to fail and that they use Warren to subdue legitimate, full-throttle revolution by placating the masses by massaging them into accepting conditional changes that still fundamentally make us live under the foot of the ultra-wealthy class. I fully recognize that. But she still actively pushes the idea of "The ultra rich are too rich and they are conning people into turning against each other rather than fighting the actual ultra-rich overlords that are ruining society". I don't accept your idea that she isn't a net positive on the path to chipping away at our overlord's powers. You are welcome to believe that.
On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. In order to sell a narrative and knowing people rarely read past headlines most people didn't notice only 12% of Warrens supporters in that poll are sure they will be voting for her. Meaning 88% of that support isn't.
I am not committed to voting for any candidate either. If I was asked if I was sure I would vote for Bernie, who I currently 99% sure I will vote for, I would say no. Too much could happen and expecting people to be sure 5 months from a primary is silly.
On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. I'd mention you're not a passive international observer in this (iirc) you could be campaigning for the better candidate without a wand. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates.
I wouldn't say I am campaigning for anyone right now. I should be, but I'm not. I intend to start. Not really sure what else to say other than I failed myself in that way. I am just pointing out that the fact that it looks like Warren will likely overtake Biden, after 2016 giving us freaking Clinton, I am pleased with this direction, even if it isn't what I wish it was. I feel better. It seems like when we have these conversations, it is that you aren't able to be happy about something other than the ideal. And while I realize people are actively dying as a result of income/wealth inequality, I am for some reason relieved at an improvement while still realizing it isn't good enough. Innocent people die every year as an indirect result of the rich consolidating power, and more of those people would die under Warren than Bernie. But watching the world go in a worse rather than better direction has been so nauseating that even the prospect of mild relief is enough to give me chills of optimism.
I want better than Warren and being truthful, Bernie does not go nearly far enough for what I genuinely would do if I was supreme ruler of Earth. Oligarchs even being allowed freedom isn't remotely tolerable to me. They need to be imprisoned, not just taxed. Oligarchs have actual blood on their hands.
On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates.
I'm by no means saying Sanders is down and out, but given the fact that he's already a well known candidate and the fact that Warren is continuing to grow rapidly, its not looking good for Bernie OR Biden.
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On September 23 2019 02:42 Grumbels wrote:
Sorry about the image, I posted it and removed it immediately afterwards because I didn't feel like researching whether it was deliberately anti-Sanders or just happenstance. I'm not inclined to believe "oops we forgot one of the top 3 candidates".
I can agree with GH that at least some of the media is trying to marginalise Bernie but what can 'we' do about it? Giving Trump another 4 years is not a solution.
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On September 23 2019 02:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. This is what I mean by not reconciling. I'm saying that a clear media bias is manipulating the voting public with the intention to lead them to your conclusion with that specific poll and narrative, despite the contradictions I've pointed out in this exchange and previously (and more will come). That Warren is "fine" is also the narrative being driven by the same corrupt forces she's supposed to be challenging, and that should be troubling, if not disqualifying. (EDIT2: Obama should have taught any of us that lived through his campaign/admin that). I understand that bad people want Bernie to fail and that they use Warren to subdue legitimate, full-throttle revolution by placating the masses by massaging them into accepting conditional changes that still fundamentally make us live under the foot of the ultra-wealthy class. I fully recognize that. But she still actively pushes the idea of "The ultra rich are too rich and they are conning people into turning against each other rather than fighting the actual ultra-rich overlords that are ruining society". I don't accept your idea that she isn't a net positive on the path to chipping away at our overlord's powers. You are welcome to believe that. Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. In order to sell a narrative and knowing people rarely read past headlines most people didn't notice only 12% of Warrens supporters in that poll are sure they will be voting for her. Meaning 88% of that support isn't. I am not committed to voting for any candidate either. If I was asked if I was sure I would vote for Bernie, who I currently 99% sure I will vote for, I would say no. Too much could happen and expecting people to be sure 5 months from a primary is silly. Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. I'd mention you're not a passive international observer in this (iirc) you could be campaigning for the better candidate without a wand. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I wouldn't say I am campaigning for anyone right now. I should be, but I'm not. I intend to start. Not really sure what else to say other than I failed myself in that way. I am just pointing out that the fact that it looks like Warren will likely overtake Biden, after 2016 giving us freaking Clinton, I am pleased with this direction, even if it isn't what I wish it was. I feel better. It seems like when we have these conversations, it is that you aren't able to be happy about something other than the ideal. And while I realize people are actively dying as a result of income/wealth inequality, I am for some reason relieved at an improvement while still realizing it isn't good enough. Innocent people die every year as an indirect result of the rich consolidating power, and more of those people would die under Warren than Bernie. But watching the world go in a worse rather than better direction has been so nauseating that even the prospect of mild relief is enough to give me chills of optimism. I want better than Warren and being truthful, Bernie does not go nearly far enough for what I genuinely would do if I was supreme ruler of Earth. Oligarchs even being allowed freedom isn't remotely tolerable to me. They need to be imprisoned, not just taxed. Oligarchs have actual blood on their hands. Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I'm by no means saying Sanders is down and out, but given the fact that he's already a well known candidate and the fact that Warren is continuing to grow rapidly, its not looking good for Bernie OR Biden.
Don't you think it's more probable that someone that does things like vote for increasing Trump's military budget (even if she just thought it politically expedient) is just giving the kind of lip service Obama did that got us 0 accountability for banksters, Bush, or Obama's bombs/bombing and culminated in Michelle literally embracing Bush and people like Kristol and Nicole Wallace being rehabilitated to the point they are regularly on MSNBC (Wallace with her own show)?
Obama's major "progressive" accomplishment was passing what was a rehash of Nixon's healthcare plan.
Warren should only be acceptable to those refusing the necessity of the kind of revolutionary changes Bernie at least broaches. Not just for some political ideal but for the survival of our species and some semblance of a society we'd want to live in. A refusal that basically boils down to a liberal version of climate denial and/or disregard for people outside their immediate circle of empathy.
I know people always assume the worst tone so I say this humbly but doesn't that feel naive/malicious to you?
EDIT: All that said, I agree that it's good that Warren seems to have risen to the top tier rather than the other candidates.
EDIT2: She's also got the minefield of the young centrist Kennedy running to unseat a senate progressive in her state. The race itself will be tricky but it's the fundraising that's probably going to be most interesting. Particularly whether DCCC and DSCC' will expose themselves and what she'll say about it (if anything).
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On September 23 2019 03:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 02:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. This is what I mean by not reconciling. I'm saying that a clear media bias is manipulating the voting public with the intention to lead them to your conclusion with that specific poll and narrative, despite the contradictions I've pointed out in this exchange and previously (and more will come). That Warren is "fine" is also the narrative being driven by the same corrupt forces she's supposed to be challenging, and that should be troubling, if not disqualifying. (EDIT2: Obama should have taught any of us that lived through his campaign/admin that). I understand that bad people want Bernie to fail and that they use Warren to subdue legitimate, full-throttle revolution by placating the masses by massaging them into accepting conditional changes that still fundamentally make us live under the foot of the ultra-wealthy class. I fully recognize that. But she still actively pushes the idea of "The ultra rich are too rich and they are conning people into turning against each other rather than fighting the actual ultra-rich overlords that are ruining society". I don't accept your idea that she isn't a net positive on the path to chipping away at our overlord's powers. You are welcome to believe that. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. In order to sell a narrative and knowing people rarely read past headlines most people didn't notice only 12% of Warrens supporters in that poll are sure they will be voting for her. Meaning 88% of that support isn't. I am not committed to voting for any candidate either. If I was asked if I was sure I would vote for Bernie, who I currently 99% sure I will vote for, I would say no. Too much could happen and expecting people to be sure 5 months from a primary is silly. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. I'd mention you're not a passive international observer in this (iirc) you could be campaigning for the better candidate without a wand. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I wouldn't say I am campaigning for anyone right now. I should be, but I'm not. I intend to start. Not really sure what else to say other than I failed myself in that way. I am just pointing out that the fact that it looks like Warren will likely overtake Biden, after 2016 giving us freaking Clinton, I am pleased with this direction, even if it isn't what I wish it was. I feel better. It seems like when we have these conversations, it is that you aren't able to be happy about something other than the ideal. And while I realize people are actively dying as a result of income/wealth inequality, I am for some reason relieved at an improvement while still realizing it isn't good enough. Innocent people die every year as an indirect result of the rich consolidating power, and more of those people would die under Warren than Bernie. But watching the world go in a worse rather than better direction has been so nauseating that even the prospect of mild relief is enough to give me chills of optimism. I want better than Warren and being truthful, Bernie does not go nearly far enough for what I genuinely would do if I was supreme ruler of Earth. Oligarchs even being allowed freedom isn't remotely tolerable to me. They need to be imprisoned, not just taxed. Oligarchs have actual blood on their hands. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I'm by no means saying Sanders is down and out, but given the fact that he's already a well known candidate and the fact that Warren is continuing to grow rapidly, its not looking good for Bernie OR Biden. Don't you think it's more probable that someone that does things like vote for increasing Trump's military budget (even if she just thought it politically expedient) is just giving the kind of lip service Obama did that got us 0 accountability for banksters, Bush, or Obama's bombs/bombing and culminated in Michelle literally embracing Bush and people like Kristol and Nicole Wallace being rehabilitated to the point they are regularly on MSNBC (Wallace with her own show)? Obama's major "progressive" accomplishment was passing what was a rehash of Nixon's healthcare plan. Warren should only be acceptable to those refusing the necessity of the kind of revolutionary changes Bernie at least broaches. Not just for some political ideal but for the survival of our species and some semblance of a society we'd want to live in. A refusal that basically boils down to a liberal version of climate denial and/or disregard for people outside their immediate circle of empathy. I know people always assume the worst tone so I say this humbly but doesn't that feel naive/malicious to you?
You see Obamacare and think of Nixon, I think of protections for pre-existing conditions. We just look at the world in a different way and that's ok. I enjoy hearing your views on things, but I don't look at us disagreeing as something to fix. I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong.
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On September 23 2019 03:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 02:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. This is what I mean by not reconciling. I'm saying that a clear media bias is manipulating the voting public with the intention to lead them to your conclusion with that specific poll and narrative, despite the contradictions I've pointed out in this exchange and previously (and more will come). That Warren is "fine" is also the narrative being driven by the same corrupt forces she's supposed to be challenging, and that should be troubling, if not disqualifying. (EDIT2: Obama should have taught any of us that lived through his campaign/admin that). I understand that bad people want Bernie to fail and that they use Warren to subdue legitimate, full-throttle revolution by placating the masses by massaging them into accepting conditional changes that still fundamentally make us live under the foot of the ultra-wealthy class. I fully recognize that. But she still actively pushes the idea of "The ultra rich are too rich and they are conning people into turning against each other rather than fighting the actual ultra-rich overlords that are ruining society". I don't accept your idea that she isn't a net positive on the path to chipping away at our overlord's powers. You are welcome to believe that. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. In order to sell a narrative and knowing people rarely read past headlines most people didn't notice only 12% of Warrens supporters in that poll are sure they will be voting for her. Meaning 88% of that support isn't. I am not committed to voting for any candidate either. If I was asked if I was sure I would vote for Bernie, who I currently 99% sure I will vote for, I would say no. Too much could happen and expecting people to be sure 5 months from a primary is silly. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. I'd mention you're not a passive international observer in this (iirc) you could be campaigning for the better candidate without a wand. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I wouldn't say I am campaigning for anyone right now. I should be, but I'm not. I intend to start. Not really sure what else to say other than I failed myself in that way. I am just pointing out that the fact that it looks like Warren will likely overtake Biden, after 2016 giving us freaking Clinton, I am pleased with this direction, even if it isn't what I wish it was. I feel better. It seems like when we have these conversations, it is that you aren't able to be happy about something other than the ideal. And while I realize people are actively dying as a result of income/wealth inequality, I am for some reason relieved at an improvement while still realizing it isn't good enough. Innocent people die every year as an indirect result of the rich consolidating power, and more of those people would die under Warren than Bernie. But watching the world go in a worse rather than better direction has been so nauseating that even the prospect of mild relief is enough to give me chills of optimism. I want better than Warren and being truthful, Bernie does not go nearly far enough for what I genuinely would do if I was supreme ruler of Earth. Oligarchs even being allowed freedom isn't remotely tolerable to me. They need to be imprisoned, not just taxed. Oligarchs have actual blood on their hands. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren is looking pretty unstoppable. She's totally won me over at this point. I also think a lot of #neverbiden people will also continue to gravitate to her as buttigieg and others finally fucking drop out. I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I'm by no means saying Sanders is down and out, but given the fact that he's already a well known candidate and the fact that Warren is continuing to grow rapidly, its not looking good for Bernie OR Biden. Don't you think it's more probable that someone that does things like vote for increasing Trump's military budget (even if she just thought it politically expedient) is just giving the kind of lip service Obama did that got us 0 accountability for banksters, Bush, or Obama's bombs/bombing and culminated in Michelle literally embracing Bush and people like Kristol and Nicole Wallace being rehabilitated to the point they are regularly on MSNBC (Wallace with her own show)? Obama's major "progressive" accomplishment was passing what was a rehash of Nixon's healthcare plan. Warren should only be acceptable to those refusing the necessity of the kind of revolutionary changes Bernie at least broaches. Not just for some political ideal but for the survival of our species and some semblance of a society we'd want to live in. A refusal that basically boils down to a liberal version of climate denial and/or disregard for people outside their immediate circle of empathy. I know people always assume the worst tone so I say this humbly but doesn't that feel naive/malicious to you?
Warren having seemingly no independent foreign policy is considered a non-factor in the primary for whatever reason. Climate change, Yemen, IMF/WTO policyand wage slavery in developing countries, tax shelters, drug-related crime in Central & South America, global military spending. These are all issues related to US empire that negatively affect the global south, and that together impact far more lives than stuff like "gun control" which dominates debates, which the US presidency can play an important role in.
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On September 23 2019 03:48 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 03:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 02:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. This is what I mean by not reconciling. I'm saying that a clear media bias is manipulating the voting public with the intention to lead them to your conclusion with that specific poll and narrative, despite the contradictions I've pointed out in this exchange and previously (and more will come). That Warren is "fine" is also the narrative being driven by the same corrupt forces she's supposed to be challenging, and that should be troubling, if not disqualifying. (EDIT2: Obama should have taught any of us that lived through his campaign/admin that). I understand that bad people want Bernie to fail and that they use Warren to subdue legitimate, full-throttle revolution by placating the masses by massaging them into accepting conditional changes that still fundamentally make us live under the foot of the ultra-wealthy class. I fully recognize that. But she still actively pushes the idea of "The ultra rich are too rich and they are conning people into turning against each other rather than fighting the actual ultra-rich overlords that are ruining society". I don't accept your idea that she isn't a net positive on the path to chipping away at our overlord's powers. You are welcome to believe that. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. In order to sell a narrative and knowing people rarely read past headlines most people didn't notice only 12% of Warrens supporters in that poll are sure they will be voting for her. Meaning 88% of that support isn't. I am not committed to voting for any candidate either. If I was asked if I was sure I would vote for Bernie, who I currently 99% sure I will vote for, I would say no. Too much could happen and expecting people to be sure 5 months from a primary is silly. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. I'd mention you're not a passive international observer in this (iirc) you could be campaigning for the better candidate without a wand. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I wouldn't say I am campaigning for anyone right now. I should be, but I'm not. I intend to start. Not really sure what else to say other than I failed myself in that way. I am just pointing out that the fact that it looks like Warren will likely overtake Biden, after 2016 giving us freaking Clinton, I am pleased with this direction, even if it isn't what I wish it was. I feel better. It seems like when we have these conversations, it is that you aren't able to be happy about something other than the ideal. And while I realize people are actively dying as a result of income/wealth inequality, I am for some reason relieved at an improvement while still realizing it isn't good enough. Innocent people die every year as an indirect result of the rich consolidating power, and more of those people would die under Warren than Bernie. But watching the world go in a worse rather than better direction has been so nauseating that even the prospect of mild relief is enough to give me chills of optimism. I want better than Warren and being truthful, Bernie does not go nearly far enough for what I genuinely would do if I was supreme ruler of Earth. Oligarchs even being allowed freedom isn't remotely tolerable to me. They need to be imprisoned, not just taxed. Oligarchs have actual blood on their hands. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago? Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything. Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I suppose it's quite possible they just don't reconcile it as it appears you are going with. I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I'm by no means saying Sanders is down and out, but given the fact that he's already a well known candidate and the fact that Warren is continuing to grow rapidly, its not looking good for Bernie OR Biden. Don't you think it's more probable that someone that does things like vote for increasing Trump's military budget (even if she just thought it politically expedient) is just giving the kind of lip service Obama did that got us 0 accountability for banksters, Bush, or Obama's bombs/bombing and culminated in Michelle literally embracing Bush and people like Kristol and Nicole Wallace being rehabilitated to the point they are regularly on MSNBC (Wallace with her own show)? Obama's major "progressive" accomplishment was passing what was a rehash of Nixon's healthcare plan. Warren should only be acceptable to those refusing the necessity of the kind of revolutionary changes Bernie at least broaches. Not just for some political ideal but for the survival of our species and some semblance of a society we'd want to live in. A refusal that basically boils down to a liberal version of climate denial and/or disregard for people outside their immediate circle of empathy. I know people always assume the worst tone so I say this humbly but doesn't that feel naive/malicious to you? You see Obamacare and think of Nixon, I think of protections for pre-existing conditions. We just look at the world in a different way and that's ok. I enjoy hearing your views on things, but I don't look at us disagreeing as something to fix. I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong.
That's kinda the point, it's not okay, it's terrifying to me. You consider yourself and others would probably presume you to be left/far-left. But your view has been so distorted that what was seen as an insufficient idea of a corrupt right-wing bigot for Democrats 50 years ago, is now "protections for pre-existing conditions"/a progressive accomplishment.
It assures me that should Bernie not win, 50 years from now (once the consequences of climate change are really kicking in), they'll be ostensibly left people thinking passing Trump era policy will be satisfactory because his opponent will be some sort of Leopold II/Immortan Joe type figure and they'll be others arguing that not supporting the Trump like candidate doesn't solve anything.
Whether people realize it or not I think the reason it doesn't scare them into being more proactive is a combination of apathy, fatalism, and/or the feeling they'll be fine through it all.
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On September 23 2019 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 03:48 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 03:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 02:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago?
Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. This is what I mean by not reconciling. I'm saying that a clear media bias is manipulating the voting public with the intention to lead them to your conclusion with that specific poll and narrative, despite the contradictions I've pointed out in this exchange and previously (and more will come). That Warren is "fine" is also the narrative being driven by the same corrupt forces she's supposed to be challenging, and that should be troubling, if not disqualifying. (EDIT2: Obama should have taught any of us that lived through his campaign/admin that). I understand that bad people want Bernie to fail and that they use Warren to subdue legitimate, full-throttle revolution by placating the masses by massaging them into accepting conditional changes that still fundamentally make us live under the foot of the ultra-wealthy class. I fully recognize that. But she still actively pushes the idea of "The ultra rich are too rich and they are conning people into turning against each other rather than fighting the actual ultra-rich overlords that are ruining society". I don't accept your idea that she isn't a net positive on the path to chipping away at our overlord's powers. You are welcome to believe that. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago?
Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. In order to sell a narrative and knowing people rarely read past headlines most people didn't notice only 12% of Warrens supporters in that poll are sure they will be voting for her. Meaning 88% of that support isn't. I am not committed to voting for any candidate either. If I was asked if I was sure I would vote for Bernie, who I currently 99% sure I will vote for, I would say no. Too much could happen and expecting people to be sure 5 months from a primary is silly. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago?
Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. I'd mention you're not a passive international observer in this (iirc) you could be campaigning for the better candidate without a wand. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I wouldn't say I am campaigning for anyone right now. I should be, but I'm not. I intend to start. Not really sure what else to say other than I failed myself in that way. I am just pointing out that the fact that it looks like Warren will likely overtake Biden, after 2016 giving us freaking Clinton, I am pleased with this direction, even if it isn't what I wish it was. I feel better. It seems like when we have these conversations, it is that you aren't able to be happy about something other than the ideal. And while I realize people are actively dying as a result of income/wealth inequality, I am for some reason relieved at an improvement while still realizing it isn't good enough. Innocent people die every year as an indirect result of the rich consolidating power, and more of those people would die under Warren than Bernie. But watching the world go in a worse rather than better direction has been so nauseating that even the prospect of mild relief is enough to give me chills of optimism. I want better than Warren and being truthful, Bernie does not go nearly far enough for what I genuinely would do if I was supreme ruler of Earth. Oligarchs even being allowed freedom isn't remotely tolerable to me. They need to be imprisoned, not just taxed. Oligarchs have actual blood on their hands. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago?
Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I'm by no means saying Sanders is down and out, but given the fact that he's already a well known candidate and the fact that Warren is continuing to grow rapidly, its not looking good for Bernie OR Biden. Don't you think it's more probable that someone that does things like vote for increasing Trump's military budget (even if she just thought it politically expedient) is just giving the kind of lip service Obama did that got us 0 accountability for banksters, Bush, or Obama's bombs/bombing and culminated in Michelle literally embracing Bush and people like Kristol and Nicole Wallace being rehabilitated to the point they are regularly on MSNBC (Wallace with her own show)? Obama's major "progressive" accomplishment was passing what was a rehash of Nixon's healthcare plan. Warren should only be acceptable to those refusing the necessity of the kind of revolutionary changes Bernie at least broaches. Not just for some political ideal but for the survival of our species and some semblance of a society we'd want to live in. A refusal that basically boils down to a liberal version of climate denial and/or disregard for people outside their immediate circle of empathy. I know people always assume the worst tone so I say this humbly but doesn't that feel naive/malicious to you? You see Obamacare and think of Nixon, I think of protections for pre-existing conditions. We just look at the world in a different way and that's ok. I enjoy hearing your views on things, but I don't look at us disagreeing as something to fix. I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong. That's kinda the point, it's not okay, it's terrifying to me. You consider yourself and others would probably presume you to be left/far-left. But your view has been so distorted that what was seen as an insufficient idea of a corrupt right-wing bigot for Democrats 50 years ago, is now "protections for pre-existing conditions"/a progressive accomplishment. It assures me that should Bernie not win, 50 years from now (once the consequences of climate change are really kicking in), they'll be ostensibly left people thinking passing Trump era policy will be satisfactory because his opponent will be some sort of Leopold II/Immortan Joe type figure and they'll be others arguing that not supporting the Trump like candidate doesn't solve anything. Whether people realize it or not I think the reason it doesn't scare them into being more proactive is a combination of apathy, fatalism, and/or the feeling they'll be fine through it all.
Sorry my views terrify you, but its all I got. Fortunately, my views tend to evolve and change over time, so they may be less bad in the future. I am doubtful we'll ever fully agree, but you never know!
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im still of the hipster opinion in here that trump is the lesser evil and actually doesnt want blood on his hands. to me it looks like the military or his administration has been pressuring him for months by now to take actions against iran (remember when he blew off the retaliatory strike months ago?)
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It sure feel's like he really want's to avoid new military conflicts, lets hope he can stay the course.
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United States44012 Posts
In what way does it feel like he wants to avoid conflicts? He tweeted that he ordered a military strike on Iran over a spydrone that got shot down and only cancelled it after he heard that missiles can be dangerous (apparently new info to him). Or are we not taking him at his word on that?
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On September 23 2019 06:18 KwarK wrote:
In what way does it feel like he wants to avoid conflicts? He tweeted that he ordered a military strike on Iran over a spydrone that got shot down and only cancelled it after he heard that missiles can be dangerous (apparently new info to him). Or are we not taking him at his word on that?
he fired bolton? if he wanted a conflict with iran he would have had no reason to.
hes already busy with his tariff wars and id wager hes fed up with those around him trying to pressure him into an actual war. hes a business man not a soldier.
addendum: the worst thing you can have is a president puppeted by his own advisors. trump has shown to be headstrong under pressure and doesnt get intimidated into not doing things his way.
placate the russians who are untouchable due to MAD, pressure the chinese into not beating the us economically. only escalate with china if the fed lowers rates sufficiently.
his foreign policy seems clever to me.
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You answered your own question Kwark, He cancelled the strike. That makes me happy, That should make you happy, In fact I think everyone should be happy, The USA didn't incinerate another 150 people on that given day, HAZAAA.
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On September 23 2019 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 03:48 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 03:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 02:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago?
Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. This is what I mean by not reconciling. I'm saying that a clear media bias is manipulating the voting public with the intention to lead them to your conclusion with that specific poll and narrative, despite the contradictions I've pointed out in this exchange and previously (and more will come). That Warren is "fine" is also the narrative being driven by the same corrupt forces she's supposed to be challenging, and that should be troubling, if not disqualifying. (EDIT2: Obama should have taught any of us that lived through his campaign/admin that). I understand that bad people want Bernie to fail and that they use Warren to subdue legitimate, full-throttle revolution by placating the masses by massaging them into accepting conditional changes that still fundamentally make us live under the foot of the ultra-wealthy class. I fully recognize that. But she still actively pushes the idea of "The ultra rich are too rich and they are conning people into turning against each other rather than fighting the actual ultra-rich overlords that are ruining society". I don't accept your idea that she isn't a net positive on the path to chipping away at our overlord's powers. You are welcome to believe that. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago?
Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. In order to sell a narrative and knowing people rarely read past headlines most people didn't notice only 12% of Warrens supporters in that poll are sure they will be voting for her. Meaning 88% of that support isn't. I am not committed to voting for any candidate either. If I was asked if I was sure I would vote for Bernie, who I currently 99% sure I will vote for, I would say no. Too much could happen and expecting people to be sure 5 months from a primary is silly. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago?
Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. I'd mention you're not a passive international observer in this (iirc) you could be campaigning for the better candidate without a wand. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I wouldn't say I am campaigning for anyone right now. I should be, but I'm not. I intend to start. Not really sure what else to say other than I failed myself in that way. I am just pointing out that the fact that it looks like Warren will likely overtake Biden, after 2016 giving us freaking Clinton, I am pleased with this direction, even if it isn't what I wish it was. I feel better. It seems like when we have these conversations, it is that you aren't able to be happy about something other than the ideal. And while I realize people are actively dying as a result of income/wealth inequality, I am for some reason relieved at an improvement while still realizing it isn't good enough. Innocent people die every year as an indirect result of the rich consolidating power, and more of those people would die under Warren than Bernie. But watching the world go in a worse rather than better direction has been so nauseating that even the prospect of mild relief is enough to give me chills of optimism. I want better than Warren and being truthful, Bernie does not go nearly far enough for what I genuinely would do if I was supreme ruler of Earth. Oligarchs even being allowed freedom isn't remotely tolerable to me. They need to be imprisoned, not just taxed. Oligarchs have actual blood on their hands. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2019 23:11 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]didn't we have this conversation 2 days ago?
Not voting Democrat and giving Trump another 4 years of making things worse doesn't solve anything.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face That's a non-sequitur? The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support. On September 22 2019 23:14 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I'm by no means saying Sanders is down and out, but given the fact that he's already a well known candidate and the fact that Warren is continuing to grow rapidly, its not looking good for Bernie OR Biden. Don't you think it's more probable that someone that does things like vote for increasing Trump's military budget (even if she just thought it politically expedient) is just giving the kind of lip service Obama did that got us 0 accountability for banksters, Bush, or Obama's bombs/bombing and culminated in Michelle literally embracing Bush and people like Kristol and Nicole Wallace being rehabilitated to the point they are regularly on MSNBC (Wallace with her own show)? Obama's major "progressive" accomplishment was passing what was a rehash of Nixon's healthcare plan. Warren should only be acceptable to those refusing the necessity of the kind of revolutionary changes Bernie at least broaches. Not just for some political ideal but for the survival of our species and some semblance of a society we'd want to live in. A refusal that basically boils down to a liberal version of climate denial and/or disregard for people outside their immediate circle of empathy. I know people always assume the worst tone so I say this humbly but doesn't that feel naive/malicious to you? You see Obamacare and think of Nixon, I think of protections for pre-existing conditions. We just look at the world in a different way and that's ok. I enjoy hearing your views on things, but I don't look at us disagreeing as something to fix. I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong. That's kinda the point, it's not okay, it's terrifying to me. You consider yourself and others would probably presume you to be left/far-left. But your view has been so distorted that what was seen as an insufficient idea of a corrupt right-wing bigot for Democrats 50 years ago, is now "protections for pre-existing conditions"/a progressive accomplishment. It assures me that should Bernie not win, 50 years from now (once the consequences of climate change are really kicking in), they'll be ostensibly left people thinking passing Trump era policy will be satisfactory because his opponent will be some sort of Leopold II/Immortan Joe type figure and they'll be others arguing that not supporting the Trump like candidate doesn't solve anything. Whether people realize it or not I think the reason it doesn't scare them into being more proactive is a combination of apathy, fatalism, and/or the feeling they'll be fine through it all.
Nathan J Robinson is pretty left, and he says maybe Warren/Sanders should make a VP pact that whoever loses the first primaries should agree to be the other’s VP.
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On September 23 2019 06:53 Taelshin wrote:
You answered your own question Kwark, He cancelled the strike. That makes me happy, That should make you happy, In fact I think everyone should be happy, The USA didn't incinerate another 150 people on that given day, HAZAAA.
Not gonna pat him on the back for not making a stupid decision he was totally set to. What I expect form a president is to not be involved in a retaliatory strike for a country knocking down a drone which, in all likelyhood, was invading their airspace.
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On September 23 2019 07:25 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2019 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 03:48 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 03:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 02:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
That's a non-sequitur?
The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support.
[quote]
done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. This is what I mean by not reconciling. I'm saying that a clear media bias is manipulating the voting public with the intention to lead them to your conclusion with that specific poll and narrative, despite the contradictions I've pointed out in this exchange and previously (and more will come). That Warren is "fine" is also the narrative being driven by the same corrupt forces she's supposed to be challenging, and that should be troubling, if not disqualifying. (EDIT2: Obama should have taught any of us that lived through his campaign/admin that). I understand that bad people want Bernie to fail and that they use Warren to subdue legitimate, full-throttle revolution by placating the masses by massaging them into accepting conditional changes that still fundamentally make us live under the foot of the ultra-wealthy class. I fully recognize that. But she still actively pushes the idea of "The ultra rich are too rich and they are conning people into turning against each other rather than fighting the actual ultra-rich overlords that are ruining society". I don't accept your idea that she isn't a net positive on the path to chipping away at our overlord's powers. You are welcome to believe that. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
That's a non-sequitur?
The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support.
[quote]
done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. In order to sell a narrative and knowing people rarely read past headlines most people didn't notice only 12% of Warrens supporters in that poll are sure they will be voting for her. Meaning 88% of that support isn't. I am not committed to voting for any candidate either. If I was asked if I was sure I would vote for Bernie, who I currently 99% sure I will vote for, I would say no. Too much could happen and expecting people to be sure 5 months from a primary is silly. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
That's a non-sequitur?
The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support.
[quote]
done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. I'd mention you're not a passive international observer in this (iirc) you could be campaigning for the better candidate without a wand. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I wouldn't say I am campaigning for anyone right now. I should be, but I'm not. I intend to start. Not really sure what else to say other than I failed myself in that way. I am just pointing out that the fact that it looks like Warren will likely overtake Biden, after 2016 giving us freaking Clinton, I am pleased with this direction, even if it isn't what I wish it was. I feel better. It seems like when we have these conversations, it is that you aren't able to be happy about something other than the ideal. And while I realize people are actively dying as a result of income/wealth inequality, I am for some reason relieved at an improvement while still realizing it isn't good enough. Innocent people die every year as an indirect result of the rich consolidating power, and more of those people would die under Warren than Bernie. But watching the world go in a worse rather than better direction has been so nauseating that even the prospect of mild relief is enough to give me chills of optimism. I want better than Warren and being truthful, Bernie does not go nearly far enough for what I genuinely would do if I was supreme ruler of Earth. Oligarchs even being allowed freedom isn't remotely tolerable to me. They need to be imprisoned, not just taxed. Oligarchs have actual blood on their hands. On September 23 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:46 Mohdoo wrote:On September 23 2019 01:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 23 2019 01:06 Mohdoo wrote:On September 22 2019 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
That's a non-sequitur?
The issue was (now months before any votes are cast) reconciling a clear media/establishment bias in favor of anyone but Bernie, the latest addition being Warren, and how that conflicts with her rhetoric against corruption and the policy they allegedly support.
[quote]
done^ For me, Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and it was obvious from a while ago that either him or Warren would be the "more progressive than Biden" candidate. If either Warren or Bernie were to drop out tomorrow, Biden would need to drop out the day after. He's completely screwed once it is a 2 candidate race. If Warren ends up being the candidate to get people more comfortable with progressive policies so we can one day move towards democratic socialism, sign me up. I'd choose Bernie to be president if I was a wizard, but I'm not going to pretend I'd be anything less than ecstatic seeing Warren replace Trump. There's a lot more to unpack there than it probably seems but lets start with: Bernie simply isn't doing well enough and reconciling it with how her rhetoric is undermined by the media/establishment bias/support and how it is intended to manipulate you to the very conclusion you've drawn. For instance, Bernie's record breaking grassroots donor support is the only one capable or intending to actually reject the corrupting money someone like Warren alleges she's intending to remove despite it making up a significant portion of her presidential campaign spending thus far and will necessarily corrupt her potential general election campaign. We aren't talking about the same topic. You are saying Bernie is significantly better from a transformation/revolution perspective, and no one is arguing against that. A Bernie presidency would fundamentally shift not just American but global culture much more significantly than Warren. I'd choose Bernie over Warren, but I am thrilled at the prospect of Warren winning. Warren has been winning over people really effectively. Bernie got 50% of Iowa in 2016 but is only polling at 11% there (from this poll https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/ ) I'm not cheering for him to be losing. I'm saying he is losing and pointing out that Warren beating Biden, but also beating Bernie, is something I can be fine with. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + As an aside and without being able to see the actual data (like what percentage/size of the sample said they caucused for Sanders?) I think Sanders getting less of his supporters than Warren is probably indicative of some sampling error compared to who will actually be at the caucuses.
Also Obama was 3rd and Sanders down by 30% at this point in their campaigns so we might not want to rely too heavily on that poll as much more than a snapshot of a trend that seems to have secured her a spot in the top tier of candidates. I'm by no means saying Sanders is down and out, but given the fact that he's already a well known candidate and the fact that Warren is continuing to grow rapidly, its not looking good for Bernie OR Biden. Don't you think it's more probable that someone that does things like vote for increasing Trump's military budget (even if she just thought it politically expedient) is just giving the kind of lip service Obama did that got us 0 accountability for banksters, Bush, or Obama's bombs/bombing and culminated in Michelle literally embracing Bush and people like Kristol and Nicole Wallace being rehabilitated to the point they are regularly on MSNBC (Wallace with her own show)? Obama's major "progressive" accomplishment was passing what was a rehash of Nixon's healthcare plan. Warren should only be acceptable to those refusing the necessity of the kind of revolutionary changes Bernie at least broaches. Not just for some political ideal but for the survival of our species and some semblance of a society we'd want to live in. A refusal that basically boils down to a liberal version of climate denial and/or disregard for people outside their immediate circle of empathy. I know people always assume the worst tone so I say this humbly but doesn't that feel naive/malicious to you? You see Obamacare and think of Nixon, I think of protections for pre-existing conditions. We just look at the world in a different way and that's ok. I enjoy hearing your views on things, but I don't look at us disagreeing as something to fix. I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong. That's kinda the point, it's not okay, it's terrifying to me. You consider yourself and others would probably presume you to be left/far-left. But your view has been so distorted that what was seen as an insufficient idea of a corrupt right-wing bigot for Democrats 50 years ago, is now "protections for pre-existing conditions"/a progressive accomplishment. It assures me that should Bernie not win, 50 years from now (once the consequences of climate change are really kicking in), they'll be ostensibly left people thinking passing Trump era policy will be satisfactory because his opponent will be some sort of Leopold II/Immortan Joe type figure and they'll be others arguing that not supporting the Trump like candidate doesn't solve anything. Whether people realize it or not I think the reason it doesn't scare them into being more proactive is a combination of apathy, fatalism, and/or the feeling they'll be fine through it all. Nathan J Robinson is pretty left, and he says maybe Warren/Sanders should make a VP pact that whoever loses the first primaries should agree to be the other’s VP.
Wow, I actually really like this. I would 100% support them saying something like "First to 5 states is pres, the other is VP and endorses". Biden would be crushed.
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On September 23 2019 06:53 Taelshin wrote:
You answered your own question Kwark, He cancelled the strike. That makes me happy, That should make you happy, In fact I think everyone should be happy, The USA didn't incinerate another 150 people on that given day, HAZAAA. You have really low standards for what you think is avoiding conflict.
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My standards are there was no strike.
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EPT
