EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 1755
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
Sitting in comfy rooms the whole time does nobody any good. Most prisoners (except uncontrollably violent and uncooperative ones) can be put to do manual work 8/hours 5/days a week. Some part of the proceeds can be used to fund the prison, and the rest can go to the prisoner after release. This lowers the burden on the taxpayer, provides the prisoners with actual training and skills so that they can reintegrate into society more easily, and gives them some money to start their new life after prison. | ||
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
On August 14 2019 23:45 JimmiC wrote: I'm with Drone, and it has been shown that if you actually focus on correction instead of punishment crime goes down not up. Have you not wondered why they keep making the rules more strict in the states but crime keeps increasing? The people in jail need to be given the skills so that when they are out they can lead a productive life instead of a life of crime. Yes it is short term expensive but it is a long term investment in your society. In the Netherlands they have been closing prisons for some time, and for a while they were importing prisoners because they did not have enough. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dutch-prisons-are-closing-because-the-country-is-so-safe-a7765521.html I think that correlation =/= causation in this case when comparing the effects of correction vs punishment. Different systems work better for different societies. Correction and rehabilitation work very well in high-trust societies with a relatively law abiding culture. For an extreme example, if you go to a country in sub-saharan africa with high violence and try to implement a corrective prison system with comfy rooms, people are just going to take advantage of niceness. In places where cultural violence is high, punishment as a deterrent and death sentences to permanently remove unrepentant recidivists works best. edit: It is possibly because developed societies have lower crime rates, that's why they can afford to stop using harsh punishments and have a corrective system where people are treated nicely. Not the other way around | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On August 15 2019 00:00 Pangpootata wrote: I think that correlation =/= causation in this case when comparing the effects of correction vs punishment. Different systems work better for different societies. Correction and rehabilitation work very well in high-trust societies with a relatively law abiding culture. For an extreme example, if you go to a country in sub-saharan africa with high violence and try to implement a corrective prison system with comfy rooms, people are just going to take advantage of niceness. In places where cultural violence is high, punishment as a deterrent and death sentences to permanently remove unrepentant recidivists works best. edit: It is possibly because developed societies have lower crime rates, that's why they can afford to stop using harsh punishments and have a corrective system where people are treated nicely. Not the other way Gonna need a major, major citation on the bold and the edit there. Is there data for that claim or just your perspective on it? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23579 Posts
On August 15 2019 00:00 Pangpootata wrote: I think that correlation =/= causation in this case when comparing the effects of correction vs punishment. Different systems work better for different societies. Correction and rehabilitation work very well in high-trust societies with a relatively law abiding culture. For an extreme example, if you go to a country in sub-saharan africa with high violence and try to implement a corrective prison system with comfy rooms, people are just going to take advantage of niceness. In places where cultural violence is high, punishment as a deterrent and death sentences to permanently remove unrepentant recidivists works best. edit: It is possibly because developed societies have lower crime rates, that's why they can afford to stop using harsh punishments and have a corrective system where people are treated nicely. Not the other way around The US locks up more people than anyone in the world in some of the worst conditions. Thousands of innocent people are in prison as well as many more in jails/prisons awaiting trial, sometimes for years. Vast amounts of room for improvement clearly. The big problem I see coming is this will be used to argue for more funding of prisons rather than addressing the problem of far too many people incarcerated in the first place. Which of course are disproportionately marginalized, particularly Black and Indigenous, peoples. We should be able to expect better conditions and less spending on incarceration as a result of imprisoning dramatically less people in the first place. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10834 Posts
On August 14 2019 23:53 Pangpootata wrote: Well, criminals could get normal rooms instead of an extra-nice ones. It does seem unfair that law abiding people are paying for the upkeep of law breaking ones. Sitting in comfy rooms the whole time does nobody any good. Most prisoners (except uncontrollably violent and uncooperative ones) can be put to do manual work 8/hours 5/days a week. Some part of the proceeds can be used to fund the prison, and the rest can go to the prisoner after release. This lowers the burden on the taxpayer, provides the prisoners with actual training and skills so that they can reintegrate into society more easily, and gives them some money to start their new life after prison. That is not what happens in the US Prison system. Yes, inmates have to work.. Unskilled work that don't teach shit. Yes, inmates do get paid for it.. RIDICULOUSLY low amounts. Your basically defending the US Prison System that uses it's inmates as Slaves. The stuff that you propose is actually what a decent prison system would do, but this is clearly not the case in the US. And this is just one of the miriads of issues. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7950 Posts
On August 15 2019 00:08 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Gonna need a major, major citation on the bold and the edit there. Is there data for that claim or just your perspective on it? Yup, I would really like to see studies supporting that claim. I have never seen a single study that supported the notion that death penalty works as a deterrent. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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semantics
10040 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7950 Posts
On August 15 2019 00:54 semantics wrote: Most criminals don't think they're going to get caught, some don't even consider what they're doing in the moment is a crime. High punishment for criminal activities does not deter much of anything. I also think that harsh punishment system participate of the violence that creates crime in the first place. You don’t break the circle by treating criminals like animals and showing absolutely 0 compassion. | ||
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farvacola
United States18845 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11713 Posts
There is a major disconnect there in what people want prisons to do. In my opinion, a prison should majorly try to turn criminals into "good citizens", and secondarily keep those criminals who absolutely cannot be reformed away from society, but that should always be seen as a failure and reserved for the most severe criminals. Prison also serves to discourage people from becoming criminal in the first place. What i do not think a prison should do is punish. I know a lot of people in the US view this differently, where they see the prisons main goal as punishing criminals. But i think this leads to things which are both ethically not acceptable in a modern society, and which also actively make society worse. The US additionally has the problem that they just put far too many people into prison. About 0.7% of the US population are in prison. Germany, for example, has 1/10th of that at about 0.07%. But lets ignore this glaring problem for a second and just look at prisons on their own. I think you should build a prison primarily to be most effective at reintegrating people into society and giving them the largest chances of being non-criminal, productive members of society against after they served their time, as i mentioned above. This also means setting incentives for prisons so it is best for prisons to work this way. Sadly, incentives for US prisons are set to make them keep as many people as possible behind bars for the lowest possible price. This is clearly not good for society. For one, do you really want to be part of a society that treats its prisoners the way US prisons treat their prisoners? That society clearly sucks and feels almost medieval. Secondly, if you spend a few years in a US prison, how are you going to integrate back into society as a non-criminal? You have no skills, you are only used to how prison live works, and the prison is mostly interested in you being a repeat customer. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22048 Posts
On August 14 2019 23:53 Pangpootata wrote: Reminds me of thisWell, criminals could get normal rooms instead of an extra-nice ones. It does seem unfair that law abiding people are paying for the upkeep of law breaking ones. Sitting in comfy rooms the whole time does nobody any good. Most prisoners (except uncontrollably violent and uncooperative ones) can be put to do manual work 8/hours 5/days a week. Some part of the proceeds can be used to fund the prison, and the rest can go to the prisoner after release. This lowers the burden on the taxpayer, provides the prisoners with actual training and skills so that they can reintegrate into society more easily, and gives them some money to start their new life after prison. “In addition to the bad ones ... they’re releasing some good ones that we use every day to wash cars, to change oil in the cars, to cook in the kitchen, to do all that where we save money,” he continued. “Well, they’re going to let them out ― the ones that we use in work release programs.” Slavery is alive and well in America. They just call it Prison now.www.huffpost.com | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
E.g. unjust police brutality, justice system failures or even just a nice migrant / native American / POC person to crash their prejudiced ways | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9763 Posts
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/28/us/florida-felons-voting-rights.html Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida signed into law on Friday significant restrictions to the recently restored voting rights of people with felony convictions, prompting the American Civil Liberties Union to sue the state hours later. The new law requires people with serious criminal histories to fully pay back fines and fees to the courts before they become eligible to vote. In some cases, those costs amount to thousands of dollars. The A.C.L.U. argued that the new limits would unconstitutionally price some people out of the ballot box and undermine the intent of Florida voters, who last November approved a measure to enfranchise up to 1.5 million former felons. “There’s no rational basis for treating somebody who can afford to pay fees any differently than treating anybody who can’t afford to pay them,” said Julie Ebenstein, a senior staff attorney with the A.C.L.U.’s Voting Rights Project. “That’s just distinguishing people’s right to vote based on their wealth.” | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22048 Posts
On August 15 2019 01:47 Jockmcplop wrote: No, only in 2 states are they allowed to vote.Are prisoners allowed to vote in the US? In some they can vote after release, in others they never get the right to vote back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement_in_the_United_States That's what makes the war on drugs so 'great'. It removes millions of potential voters from the system. | ||
KwarK
United States43460 Posts
On August 14 2019 23:53 Pangpootata wrote: Well, criminals could get normal rooms instead of an extra-nice ones. It does seem unfair that law abiding people are paying for the upkeep of law breaking ones. Sitting in comfy rooms the whole time does nobody any good. Most prisoners (except uncontrollably violent and uncooperative ones) can be put to do manual work 8/hours 5/days a week. Some part of the proceeds can be used to fund the prison, and the rest can go to the prisoner after release. This lowers the burden on the taxpayer, provides the prisoners with actual training and skills so that they can reintegrate into society more easily, and gives them some money to start their new life after prison. Skills they can’t use because the prison slave labour industry has no outside competitors. If you’re great at making the thing that slaves make then freedom is the opposite of job security. Also society doesn’t hire ex cons so the entire exercise is futile, they go back to crime because it’s the only source of income we allow them. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9763 Posts
On August 15 2019 02:25 KwarK wrote: Skills they can’t use because the prison slave labour industry has no outside competitors. If you’re great at making the thing that slaves make then freedom is the opposite of job security. Also society doesn’t hire ex cons so the entire exercise is futile, they go back to crime because it’s the only source of income we allow them. That's ok because then when they reoffend you end up having more manual workers, right? | ||
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