|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On July 22 2019 14:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 14:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 14:00 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 22 2019 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 13:38 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 22 2019 13:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 13:11 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 22 2019 12:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 11:22 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 22 2019 10:05 iamthedave wrote: [quote]
I'm still waiting on you providing the quote where GH says he's advocating for the eradication of Israel.
You're ridiculously out of line, and the biggest irony is you asking someone else to prove you're being an asshole when you've spent about three pages proving it yourself. You've accused him of saying a ton of stuff he's never said and then demanding he defend these positions he doesn't hold.
Does it not occur to you that maybe - just maybe - you're off-base when multiple people who regularly disagree with GH are calling you out? JC may be acting like a dick right now but he's right. GH has been a condescending asshole for years now, constantly dodging questions and then talking down to people to feed his own ego. There's absolutely zero accountability for his ideas in this thread and it's clear where the moderation bias lies. Multiple posters have taken him to task to get some actual, concrete ideas and solutions from him and he dodges every time. Then, when we really start calling him out on it, people like you roll in to give him a smokescreen to slink away behind without having to justify his ideas. It's really weird for me to be perceived as having moderation biased toward me lately. fwiw I'll try to reiterate in brief my framing that bothers a few of you so much. There's a pattern I'm tired of and I'm trying to do what little I can to remedy it. Follow me for a moment, sorry if this sounds familiar. 1. X sucks 2. Yeah it does, we should do something about it 3. Can't, Congress 4. Gotta vote for better people 5. Gotta beat the the other party more 6. That sucks 7. Go back to 1 I can run you through any issue you want to demonstrate it, depending on what you pick I might be able to link you specific examples in posts. It's bipartisan too, so I can demonstrate it with Republican stuff if that makes people more comfortable. Z2C has added, paraphrasing: "6.5 I dunno what to do, I have some ideas, not sure how to make them happen without a magic wand (but I have some ideas on that too [I think?].)" That was me a few years ago tbh (I mean no shade with that). Then I read/listened to/thought about/talked through a ton of shit for the last few years while everyone was focused on Trump and Mueller and stuff (not bragging). That's what we're seeing right now. Some posters due to circumstances had a reasonable amount of preexisting knowledge (or developed it recently as well) about the (at least European roots) stuff I've recently really delved into. That's not the likes of yourself (I'm making a presumption here that may not be entirely fair because I don't have the same familiarity with your posting), JC, z2c, and some others. Now some people have recognized that and chosen to listen or tune us out. A handful of people have taken to a rather unbecoming display of what I would describe as entitlement largely wrapped around what was recently articulated by Kwark quite well as "white club"imo. Rather than go my old route of returning venom with venom I've chosen (partly encouraged by moderation) to ignore them (to the best of my ability) instead. There was a presumption that at some point it would resolve itself more or less, but alas, it drags on. If people are okay with me engaging with whatever your response is I will, but otherwise I suggest we take it to PM's if you have further inquires/arguments you'd like me to address. I'll live forever in quotes. Never thought that would be the way my legacy would endure, but hey, I'll take it. It's hard to articulate what we know or agree on when what we ask doesn't get answered. Maybe I'm for your (r)evolution, but not the methods or outcomes. Maybe I'm secretly building a knowledge base of your ideas and plan to dish it out to the local Chicago (r)evolution clubs. I'm definitely going to demand they call me GreenHorizons though. Such a dream-like name. Funny story, one of my first requests ever (iirc) of mods was to change it (slightly), never happened, so I guess that worked out. Since I'm in "I'm here so I don't get fined mode" for a bit until I get some feedback from moderation, can we address some of your concerns, or at least give it a good faith effort? Why are you asking? I got a slightly chilling PM from moderation. I've already given you permission to speak however you see fit that gets your ideas across. Moderation be damned Easy for you to say lol. if this gets a lot of confusion/frustration cleared up. Just bring the substance. And then, we can cook with Crisco. I desperately hope it does. So let's take into consideration IgnE's previous point. On July 22 2019 06:35 IgnE wrote: Is this the trial of GreenHorizons? What is the point of this?
Maybe stop asking GH to do what libraries of books have been written to do, and maybe GH limit yourself to particular analyses rather than some vague call to revolution for people who’ve never read a socialist thinker in their life. Let's start carefully, and agree on a way to close this gap (presuming I've underestimated your familiarity with the subject matter and/or done a poor job communicating my position because of my misestimation it). Ask me a question that's narrow in scope that we can build from. You had a top 5 things you would do and I pointed out #1 has a lot in common with my perspective. I think that may be a good place to start. EDIT At your leisure, just request you afford me the same consideration. If you ever feel like I'm unreasonably dodging going forward, please try PM'ing me before going to the mods because as has been mentioned before my posting is being closely monitored and will not be granted the same leniencies as others as far as I understand (this isn't an objection to that, merely a statement). I'll start with a quote. We must become bigger than we have been: more courageous, greater in spirit, larger in outlook. We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations but to our fellow men within the human community. I'll assume you mean titans of industry when you say "capitalist class" and therefore wish to strip them of their influence and power. I can agree to an extent. Now, how do you go about it and who is the recipient? How does that not get abused by the new? In keeping with the quote, do you "segregate" any class? How do you build that community that is onboard? Edit: this goes to point...3? Of my top 5? I didn't check before replying. Feel free to add it to one of create a new point. Why the random quote from someone I don't think has even been brought up here before? I think we should start with point 1 and try not to presume too much at once. If you insist you believe the disagreements around point 3 is the best place to start, you're in charge and that's what we'll do. Just let me know. Show nested quote +5 Point Plan To a Successful Revolution by Z2C 1. Immediate re-education of the society and climate that we live in, exposing children from middle school onward about the dangers of xenophobia, unchecked climate change and capitalism, as well as basic understanding of politics.
2. Term limits of congressmen/women who are there to serve the will of the collective people, and not just the wealthy donors who pay them. Those who abdicate responsibility or fail to actualize the will of the people, are removed immediately and replaced.
3. Healthcare for all, at a rate that is conducive to their lifestyle. If you're at or below the poverty line, you're covered. Anyone above, married or single, you can choose government backed healthcare or private.
4. Foreign relations must be upheld and maintained in accordance with the sovereignty of the nation we are dealing with. No unilateral punitive measures are to be taken without at least a majority vote of the G7.
5. Education must be continuously improved and enhanced to face the challenges of the world, while also looking to the future of what humanity needs. STEaM and trades get equal coverage and pay must be at or above "middle class" status. For reference. Is there anything you would do different?
The random quote (from someone I don't think anyone's ever mentioned prior?) ;+ Show Spoiler + On July 22 2019 14:00 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:I'll start with a quote. Show nested quote +We must become bigger than we have been: more courageous, greater in spirit, larger in outlook. We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations but to our fellow men within the human community. . was for reference, are you asking if I would do anything different than the quote or what? This isn't a promising start but I'll take the blame for that so far.
I think it's important to stay focused so there's less room for miscommunication but yes I have disagreement s with the rest, my issues with 1 are minimal and I think we can clear them up so here goes:
I mostly agree with 1. I've mentioned a lot about how I think that should happen referring to the scholars/activists/revolutionaries that articulated the ideas before me, namely, Freire as of late. He had both a literacy program and a political philosophy based around the concept of Critical consciousness, conscientization, or conscientização. Which, I take to mean the lifting of consciousness to a place where we recognize and act on our ability to make the world around us, not in some XMen kinda way, in a "being more fully human" and treating each other that way kinda way.
The rub is how we make that happen (presuming you agree with Freire's conception of education).My position is that everything short of direct action is failing. I don't know if revolution is possible or probable or direct action will be enough, but I think the evidence demonstrates clearly that everything short of direct action is leading to certain climate catastrophe according to the best available information, even under the most optimistic scientific estimates.
I don't mean to dodge the rest and if you want we'll get there, I just sincerely believe this makes the most sense as a starting point to establish good faith
|
5 Point Plan To a Successful Revolution by Z2C 1. Immediate re-education of the society and climate that we live in, exposing children from middle school onward about the dangers of xenophobia, unchecked climate change and capitalism, as well as basic understanding of politics.
2. Term limits of congressmen/women who are there to serve the will of the collective people, and not just the wealthy donors who pay them. Those who abdicate responsibility or fail to actualize the will of the people, are removed immediately and replaced.
3. Healthcare for all, at a rate that is conducive to their lifestyle. If you're at or below the poverty line, you're covered. Anyone above, married or single, you can choose government backed healthcare or private.
4. Foreign relations must be upheld and maintained in accordance with the sovereignty of the nation we are dealing with. No unilateral punitive measures are to be taken without at least a majority vote of the G7.
5. Education must be continuously improved and enhanced to face the challenges of the world, while also looking to the future of what humanity needs. STEaM and trades get equal coverage and pay must be at or above "middle class" status.
1. Younger generations already tend to be more concerned on climate change and racism, and are more skeptical towards capitalism. What learning material do you want to introduce?
2. How do you determine which senator/representative are there to serve the people?
5. I don't know what kind of education you are talking about but universities always adapt to teach courses that are (or perceived to be) in high-demand.
I agree with 3 and 4.
|
On July 22 2019 12:22 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 10:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 08:52 KwarK wrote: In other current events news Sweden has rebuffed Donald Trump's personal intervention to lobby for the bail of A dollar sign AP Rocky, including a personal guarantee to be held accountable for the bail bond. Among the reasons Sweden offered was that their justice system does not have bail. Under any other presidency this would be considered a low point. In this presidency it's just another day. This is the kind of public humiliation that you'd expect the US ambassador to Sweden to prevent but there hasn't been one since Trump recalled the Obama appointed one in his first week in office.
Somehow following the phone call in which the Swedish Prime Minister explained all this Trump tweeted that he'd guaranteed the bail bond of Mr. Rocky. This is going to be Merkel spending an entire day failing to get Trump to understand that they couldn't make a trade deal all over again. I'm torn, I really want to talk about how this is an example of both white club's influence outside of white skin while simultaneously being "outreach to black voters" and not take the bait on how stupid Trump is but... I'm getting to the point where I'm not sure whether it's harder to believe this is a 4d chess strategy or that he's able to put his own pants on in the morning. Looking at this excerpt from CBS on the situation regarding A$AP Rocky and Trump's call to the PM might have given me an aneurysm. Mr. Trump later tweeted Friday afternoon that he had spoken with West about Rocky's situation.
"Just spoke to @KanyeWest about his friend A$AP Rocky's incarceration. I will be calling the very talented Prime Minister of Sweden to see what we can do about helping A$AP Rocky. So many people would like to see this quickly resolved!" Mr. Trump wrote.
Kardashian West tweeted her gratitude to Mr. Trump, his son-in-law Jared Kushner, and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo for intervening on Rocky's behalf Thursday.
"Thank you @realDonaldTrump , @SecPompeo, Jared Kushner & everyone involved with the efforts to Free A$AP Rocky & his two friends. Your commitment to justice reform is so appreciated 🙏 [fingers crossed emoji]," Kardashian West wrote.
Kardashian West has ties to the White House thanks to her advocacy regarding criminal justice issues. She was a driving force behind the commutation of Alice Johnson and recently returned to the White House to speak at an event promoting the hiring of prisoners released early under the First Step Act, the criminal justice reform law Mr. Trump signed into law in December. www.cbsnews.comI wish I could resurrect Carlin and Russert and just hand them this and tell them, "sooo this is what we've been up to since you've been gone, te-he-he" then get them unlimited access to anyone to ask them anything. From a different perspective: It has been highly amusing to me to read various Swedish sources / forums that one would normally not expect to advocate for lighter punishments or to be particularly forgiving of a black man suspected of violent crime be extremely upset over the fact that someone is in jail pending investigation. Of course then one realizes that the alleged victim is an Afghan war refuge and the alleged perpetrator is a rich American and everything makes sense again.
It is also interesting to read all the posts claiming it was self-defense and therefore not illegal, considering there is nothing called self-defense if you can run away in the swedish law (similar to how it is in Norway). Scandinavian laws tends to value the risk of any serious consequences from inflicting violence on others, higher than pride. If you can run, you run. If you stand and fight, you break the law.
|
On July 22 2019 16:05 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 12:22 KlaCkoN wrote:On July 22 2019 10:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 08:52 KwarK wrote: In other current events news Sweden has rebuffed Donald Trump's personal intervention to lobby for the bail of A dollar sign AP Rocky, including a personal guarantee to be held accountable for the bail bond. Among the reasons Sweden offered was that their justice system does not have bail. Under any other presidency this would be considered a low point. In this presidency it's just another day. This is the kind of public humiliation that you'd expect the US ambassador to Sweden to prevent but there hasn't been one since Trump recalled the Obama appointed one in his first week in office.
Somehow following the phone call in which the Swedish Prime Minister explained all this Trump tweeted that he'd guaranteed the bail bond of Mr. Rocky. This is going to be Merkel spending an entire day failing to get Trump to understand that they couldn't make a trade deal all over again. I'm torn, I really want to talk about how this is an example of both white club's influence outside of white skin while simultaneously being "outreach to black voters" and not take the bait on how stupid Trump is but... I'm getting to the point where I'm not sure whether it's harder to believe this is a 4d chess strategy or that he's able to put his own pants on in the morning. Looking at this excerpt from CBS on the situation regarding A$AP Rocky and Trump's call to the PM might have given me an aneurysm. Mr. Trump later tweeted Friday afternoon that he had spoken with West about Rocky's situation.
"Just spoke to @KanyeWest about his friend A$AP Rocky's incarceration. I will be calling the very talented Prime Minister of Sweden to see what we can do about helping A$AP Rocky. So many people would like to see this quickly resolved!" Mr. Trump wrote.
Kardashian West tweeted her gratitude to Mr. Trump, his son-in-law Jared Kushner, and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo for intervening on Rocky's behalf Thursday.
"Thank you @realDonaldTrump , @SecPompeo, Jared Kushner & everyone involved with the efforts to Free A$AP Rocky & his two friends. Your commitment to justice reform is so appreciated 🙏 [fingers crossed emoji]," Kardashian West wrote.
Kardashian West has ties to the White House thanks to her advocacy regarding criminal justice issues. She was a driving force behind the commutation of Alice Johnson and recently returned to the White House to speak at an event promoting the hiring of prisoners released early under the First Step Act, the criminal justice reform law Mr. Trump signed into law in December. www.cbsnews.comI wish I could resurrect Carlin and Russert and just hand them this and tell them, "sooo this is what we've been up to since you've been gone, te-he-he" then get them unlimited access to anyone to ask them anything. From a different perspective: It has been highly amusing to me to read various Swedish sources / forums that one would normally not expect to advocate for lighter punishments or to be particularly forgiving of a black man suspected of violent crime be extremely upset over the fact that someone is in jail pending investigation. Of course then one realizes that the alleged victim is an Afghan war refuge and the alleged perpetrator is a rich American and everything makes sense again. It is also interesting to read all the posts claiming it was self-defense and therefore not illegal, considering there is nothing called self-defense if you can run away in the swedish law (similar to how it is in Norway). Scandinavian laws tends to value the risk of any serious consequences from inflicting violence on others, higher than pride. If you can run, you run. If you stand and fight, you break the law.
The confusion is reasonable, in Florida you can see someone you're scared of, drive after them, get out of your car, chase them on foot, confront them/pick a fight, start losing the fight, then shoot them, then after all that, claim self defense.
|
On July 22 2019 18:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 16:05 Neneu wrote:On July 22 2019 12:22 KlaCkoN wrote:On July 22 2019 10:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 08:52 KwarK wrote: In other current events news Sweden has rebuffed Donald Trump's personal intervention to lobby for the bail of A dollar sign AP Rocky, including a personal guarantee to be held accountable for the bail bond. Among the reasons Sweden offered was that their justice system does not have bail. Under any other presidency this would be considered a low point. In this presidency it's just another day. This is the kind of public humiliation that you'd expect the US ambassador to Sweden to prevent but there hasn't been one since Trump recalled the Obama appointed one in his first week in office.
Somehow following the phone call in which the Swedish Prime Minister explained all this Trump tweeted that he'd guaranteed the bail bond of Mr. Rocky. This is going to be Merkel spending an entire day failing to get Trump to understand that they couldn't make a trade deal all over again. I'm torn, I really want to talk about how this is an example of both white club's influence outside of white skin while simultaneously being "outreach to black voters" and not take the bait on how stupid Trump is but... I'm getting to the point where I'm not sure whether it's harder to believe this is a 4d chess strategy or that he's able to put his own pants on in the morning. Looking at this excerpt from CBS on the situation regarding A$AP Rocky and Trump's call to the PM might have given me an aneurysm. Mr. Trump later tweeted Friday afternoon that he had spoken with West about Rocky's situation.
"Just spoke to @KanyeWest about his friend A$AP Rocky's incarceration. I will be calling the very talented Prime Minister of Sweden to see what we can do about helping A$AP Rocky. So many people would like to see this quickly resolved!" Mr. Trump wrote.
Kardashian West tweeted her gratitude to Mr. Trump, his son-in-law Jared Kushner, and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo for intervening on Rocky's behalf Thursday.
"Thank you @realDonaldTrump , @SecPompeo, Jared Kushner & everyone involved with the efforts to Free A$AP Rocky & his two friends. Your commitment to justice reform is so appreciated 🙏 [fingers crossed emoji]," Kardashian West wrote.
Kardashian West has ties to the White House thanks to her advocacy regarding criminal justice issues. She was a driving force behind the commutation of Alice Johnson and recently returned to the White House to speak at an event promoting the hiring of prisoners released early under the First Step Act, the criminal justice reform law Mr. Trump signed into law in December. www.cbsnews.comI wish I could resurrect Carlin and Russert and just hand them this and tell them, "sooo this is what we've been up to since you've been gone, te-he-he" then get them unlimited access to anyone to ask them anything. From a different perspective: It has been highly amusing to me to read various Swedish sources / forums that one would normally not expect to advocate for lighter punishments or to be particularly forgiving of a black man suspected of violent crime be extremely upset over the fact that someone is in jail pending investigation. Of course then one realizes that the alleged victim is an Afghan war refuge and the alleged perpetrator is a rich American and everything makes sense again. It is also interesting to read all the posts claiming it was self-defense and therefore not illegal, considering there is nothing called self-defense if you can run away in the swedish law (similar to how it is in Norway). Scandinavian laws tends to value the risk of any serious consequences from inflicting violence on others, higher than pride. If you can run, you run. If you stand and fight, you break the law. The confusion is reasonable, in Florida you can see someone you're scared of, drive after them, get out of your car, chase them on foot, confront them/pick a fight, start losing the fight, then shoot them, then after all that, claim self defense. Yeah, that sounds peak Florida to me.
|
On July 22 2019 15:37 explosivekangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +5 Point Plan To a Successful Revolution by Z2C 1. Immediate re-education of the society and climate that we live in, exposing children from middle school onward about the dangers of xenophobia, unchecked climate change and capitalism, as well as basic understanding of politics.
2. Term limits of congressmen/women who are there to serve the will of the collective people, and not just the wealthy donors who pay them. Those who abdicate responsibility or fail to actualize the will of the people, are removed immediately and replaced.
3. Healthcare for all, at a rate that is conducive to their lifestyle. If you're at or below the poverty line, you're covered. Anyone above, married or single, you can choose government backed healthcare or private.
4. Foreign relations must be upheld and maintained in accordance with the sovereignty of the nation we are dealing with. No unilateral punitive measures are to be taken without at least a majority vote of the G7.
5. Education must be continuously improved and enhanced to face the challenges of the world, while also looking to the future of what humanity needs. STEaM and trades get equal coverage and pay must be at or above "middle class" status. 1. Younger generations already tend to be more concerned on climate change and racism, and are more skeptical towards capitalism. What learning material do you want to introduce? 2. How do you determine which senator/representative are there to serve the people? 5. I don't know what kind of education you are talking about but universities always adapt to teach courses that are (or perceived to be) in high-demand. I agree with 3 and 4. I'll answer this since it'll be easier than GH at the moment as I'm on the way to work.
Learning material that frames the world in realism and not a rose colored lense. Im talking "scared straight" type of material. Get them to understand that while we have alternatives now, it isn't too late to xontinue improving on the waste we consume.
I can't tell you which ones, as they've yet to be found. We see a semblance of some in AOC and others who will take others to task. If the people we send there show by voting and rhetoric they aren't fighting for the will of the people, then they go by immediate vote. Special elections and the such.
Not only university. Community college and technical schools as well. Any place that you go for higher education basically must attempt to have the most up to date information to disseminate to their student body. no more short changing students because a small minority doesn't like what is being taught. The truth.
Sorry for not delving deeper, typing on thr phone is a pain and I'm trying to limkt grammatical errors.
|
On July 22 2019 14:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 14:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 22 2019 14:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 14:00 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 22 2019 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 13:38 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 22 2019 13:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 13:11 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 22 2019 12:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 22 2019 11:22 Stratos_speAr wrote: [quote]
JC may be acting like a dick right now but he's right. GH has been a condescending asshole for years now, constantly dodging questions and then talking down to people to feed his own ego. There's absolutely zero accountability for his ideas in this thread and it's clear where the moderation bias lies. Multiple posters have taken him to task to get some actual, concrete ideas and solutions from him and he dodges every time. Then, when we really start calling him out on it, people like you roll in to give him a smokescreen to slink away behind without having to justify his ideas. It's really weird for me to be perceived as having moderation biased toward me lately. fwiw I'll try to reiterate in brief my framing that bothers a few of you so much. There's a pattern I'm tired of and I'm trying to do what little I can to remedy it. Follow me for a moment, sorry if this sounds familiar. 1. X sucks 2. Yeah it does, we should do something about it 3. Can't, Congress 4. Gotta vote for better people 5. Gotta beat the the other party more 6. That sucks 7. Go back to 1 I can run you through any issue you want to demonstrate it, depending on what you pick I might be able to link you specific examples in posts. It's bipartisan too, so I can demonstrate it with Republican stuff if that makes people more comfortable. Z2C has added, paraphrasing: "6.5 I dunno what to do, I have some ideas, not sure how to make them happen without a magic wand (but I have some ideas on that too [I think?].)" That was me a few years ago tbh (I mean no shade with that). Then I read/listened to/thought about/talked through a ton of shit for the last few years while everyone was focused on Trump and Mueller and stuff (not bragging). That's what we're seeing right now. Some posters due to circumstances had a reasonable amount of preexisting knowledge (or developed it recently as well) about the (at least European roots) stuff I've recently really delved into. That's not the likes of yourself (I'm making a presumption here that may not be entirely fair because I don't have the same familiarity with your posting), JC, z2c, and some others. Now some people have recognized that and chosen to listen or tune us out. A handful of people have taken to a rather unbecoming display of what I would describe as entitlement largely wrapped around what was recently articulated by Kwark quite well as "white club"imo. Rather than go my old route of returning venom with venom I've chosen (partly encouraged by moderation) to ignore them (to the best of my ability) instead. There was a presumption that at some point it would resolve itself more or less, but alas, it drags on. If people are okay with me engaging with whatever your response is I will, but otherwise I suggest we take it to PM's if you have further inquires/arguments you'd like me to address. I'll live forever in quotes. Never thought that would be the way my legacy would endure, but hey, I'll take it. It's hard to articulate what we know or agree on when what we ask doesn't get answered. Maybe I'm for your (r)evolution, but not the methods or outcomes. Maybe I'm secretly building a knowledge base of your ideas and plan to dish it out to the local Chicago (r)evolution clubs. I'm definitely going to demand they call me GreenHorizons though. Such a dream-like name. Funny story, one of my first requests ever (iirc) of mods was to change it (slightly), never happened, so I guess that worked out. Since I'm in "I'm here so I don't get fined mode" for a bit until I get some feedback from moderation, can we address some of your concerns, or at least give it a good faith effort? Why are you asking? I got a slightly chilling PM from moderation. I've already given you permission to speak however you see fit that gets your ideas across. Moderation be damned Easy for you to say lol. if this gets a lot of confusion/frustration cleared up. Just bring the substance. And then, we can cook with Crisco. I desperately hope it does. So let's take into consideration IgnE's previous point. On July 22 2019 06:35 IgnE wrote: Is this the trial of GreenHorizons? What is the point of this?
Maybe stop asking GH to do what libraries of books have been written to do, and maybe GH limit yourself to particular analyses rather than some vague call to revolution for people who’ve never read a socialist thinker in their life. Let's start carefully, and agree on a way to close this gap (presuming I've underestimated your familiarity with the subject matter and/or done a poor job communicating my position because of my misestimation it). Ask me a question that's narrow in scope that we can build from. You had a top 5 things you would do and I pointed out #1 has a lot in common with my perspective. I think that may be a good place to start. EDIT At your leisure, just request you afford me the same consideration. If you ever feel like I'm unreasonably dodging going forward, please try PM'ing me before going to the mods because as has been mentioned before my posting is being closely monitored and will not be granted the same leniencies as others as far as I understand (this isn't an objection to that, merely a statement). I'll start with a quote. We must become bigger than we have been: more courageous, greater in spirit, larger in outlook. We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations but to our fellow men within the human community. I'll assume you mean titans of industry when you say "capitalist class" and therefore wish to strip them of their influence and power. I can agree to an extent. Now, how do you go about it and who is the recipient? How does that not get abused by the new? In keeping with the quote, do you "segregate" any class? How do you build that community that is onboard? Edit: this goes to point...3? Of my top 5? I didn't check before replying. Feel free to add it to one of create a new point. Why the random quote from someone I don't think has even been brought up here before? I think we should start with point 1 and try not to presume too much at once. If you insist you believe the disagreements around point 3 is the best place to start, you're in charge and that's what we'll do. Just let me know. 5 Point Plan To a Successful Revolution by Z2C 1. Immediate re-education of the society and climate that we live in, exposing children from middle school onward about the dangers of xenophobia, unchecked climate change and capitalism, as well as basic understanding of politics.
2. Term limits of congressmen/women who are there to serve the will of the collective people, and not just the wealthy donors who pay them. Those who abdicate responsibility or fail to actualize the will of the people, are removed immediately and replaced.
3. Healthcare for all, at a rate that is conducive to their lifestyle. If you're at or below the poverty line, you're covered. Anyone above, married or single, you can choose government backed healthcare or private.
4. Foreign relations must be upheld and maintained in accordance with the sovereignty of the nation we are dealing with. No unilateral punitive measures are to be taken without at least a majority vote of the G7.
5. Education must be continuously improved and enhanced to face the challenges of the world, while also looking to the future of what humanity needs. STEaM and trades get equal coverage and pay must be at or above "middle class" status. For reference. Is there anything you would do different? The random quote (from someone I don't think anyone's ever mentioned prior?) ; + Show Spoiler + On July 22 2019 14:00 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:I'll start with a quote. Show nested quote +We must become bigger than we have been: more courageous, greater in spirit, larger in outlook. We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations but to our fellow men within the human community. . was for reference, are you asking if I would do anything different than the quote or what? This isn't a promising start but I'll take the blame for that so far. I think it's important to stay focused so there's less room for miscommunication but yes I have disagreement s with the rest, my issues with 1 are minimal and I think we can clear them up so here goes: I mostly agree with 1. I've mentioned a lot about how I think that should happen referring to the scholars/activists/revolutionaries that articulated the ideas before me, namely, Freire as of late. He had both a literacy program and a political philosophy based around the concept of Critical consciousness, conscientization, or conscientização. Which, I take to mean the lifting of consciousness to a place where we recognize and act on our ability to make the world around us, not in some XMen kinda way, in a "being more fully human" and treating each other that way kinda way. The rub is how we make that happen (presuming you agree with Freire's conception of education).My position is that everything short of direct action is failing. I don't know if revolution is possible or probable or direct action will be enough, but I think the evidence demonstrates clearly that everything short of direct action is leading to certain climate catastrophe according to the best available information, even under the most optimistic scientific estimates. I don't mean to dodge the rest and if you want we'll get there, I just sincerely believe this makes the most sense as a starting point to establish good faith Okay. So. To answer your post. The quote is from Haile Selassie. I assume you've heard of him. He hasn't been mentioned but is still a good read.
I agree with the raising consciousness of as many people as possible to where being critical of their surroundings is almost second nature. Where I find my issue is your second part. When you say direct action, I feel you're beingi intentionally misleading by not picking which arm of that you prefer. From what I gather, you prefer the violent direct action and not the nonviolent as you believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that has not worked and anything short of destroying the capitalist class through violence, is doomed from the outset.
|
They could literally take voting rights away from the elderly and the political landscape would shift dramatically towards more progressive voices. I'm not advocating for this, but I'm just noticing that a group of almost dead people empowers the GOP's nihilistic agenda that will destroy the future of younger voters. The elderly also tend to come from richer backgrounds because of the effect of poverty on life expectation. If politics in an ideal world is about compromising between how you would like things to be and what is practical for now, then there is a clear conflict between the elderly and the young given that the latter are much more adaptable and have a much longer term horizon for what policies would affect them.
But there are better ways to change the electoral system without trying to balance out disenfranchisement of key groups. Aside from the obvious ones that have been mentioned over and over, I also feel like the voting age limit should be lowered to 15. We did compulsory "fake" voting in high school in the Netherlands, where we would follow the political process during election season for our civics class. And I think I've never been better informed about the specifics of political programs than during that period. There is no reason to believe that the quality of the vote of a 15 year old who is supported in their decision making by dedicating part of civics class to the process would be in any way worse than that of an 80 year old. And 15 year olds actually have something at stake given the climate crisis. I personally actually do regret my mock vote, since at the time I was dumb enough to believe a policy program was sufficiently informative about a party's true goals, but overall it was still a positive experience. And it will create a habit of participating in the voting process, which usually improves outcomes.
|
There was a long article in The New Yorker about Al Franken's resignation.
It's an interesting read, here is a rough summary:
- The accusation of of inappropriate behavior on Franken's part made by conservative talkshow host Leeann Tweeden was coordinated by various conservative outlets and contained multiple omissions and lies.
- These accusations came at a politically inopportune time for him during the height of the #MeToo moment when there was a lot of pressure for the Democratic Party to avoid being seen as hypocritical. This was the main reason that the accusations were not deferred to a Senate ethics investigation.
- Al Franken has Biden-syndrome, where he seems to inadvertently assault women in public spaces without necessarily being a malicious creep. There were numerous additional accusations against him of being touchy and of groping women. The article explains it away by casting him as being an oblivious moron unaware of personal boundaries.
- A number of Dems with a national profile have come forward to voice regret for their call for resignation, notably not including Gillibrand who was often harangued about her role in the process.
excerpt:
+ Show Spoiler +When I asked him if he truly regretted his decision to resign, he said, “Oh, yeah. Absolutely.” He wishes that he had appeared before a Senate Ethics Committee hearing, as he had requested, allowing him to marshal facts that countered the narrative aired in the press. [...] A remarkable number of Franken’s Senate colleagues have regrets about their own roles in his fall. Seven current and former U.S. senators who demanded Franken’s resignation in 2017 told me that they’d been wrong to do so. Such admissions are unusual in an institution whose members rarely concede mistakes. Patrick Leahy, the veteran Democrat from Vermont, said that his decision to seek Franken’s resignation without first getting all the facts was “one of the biggest mistakes I’ve made” in forty-five years in the Senate. Heidi Heitkamp, the former senator from North Dakota, told me, “If there’s one decision I’ve made that I would take back, it’s the decision to call for his resignation. It was made in the heat of the moment, without concern for exactly what this was.” Tammy Duckworth, the junior Democratic senator from Illinois, told me that the Senate Ethics Committee “should have been allowed to move forward.” She said it was important to acknowledge the trauma that Franken’s accusers had gone through, but added, “We needed more facts. That due process didn’t happen is not good for our democracy.” Angus King, the Independent senator from Maine, said that he’d “regretted it ever since” he joined the call for Franken’s resignation. “There’s no excuse for sexual assault,” he said. “But Al deserved more of a process. I don’t denigrate the allegations, but this was the political equivalent of capital punishment.” Senator Jeff Merkley, of Oregon, told me, “This was a rush to judgment that didn’t allow any of us to fully explore what this was about. I took the judgment of my peers rather than independently examining the circumstances. In my heart, I’ve not felt right about it.” Bill Nelson, the former Florida senator, said, “I realized almost right away I’d made a mistake. I felt terrible. I should have stood up for due process to render what it’s supposed to—the truth.” Tom Udall, the senior Democratic senator from New Mexico, said, “I made a mistake. I started having second thoughts shortly after he stepped down. He had the right to be heard by an independent investigative body. I’ve heard from people around my state, and around the country, saying that they think he got railroaded. It doesn’t seem fair. I’m a lawyer. I really believe in due process.”
Former Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, who watched the drama unfold from retirement, told me, “It’s terrible what happened to him. It was unfair. It took the legs out from under him. He was a very fine senator.” Many voters have also protested Franken’s decision. A Change.org petition urging Franken to retract his resignation received more than seventy-five thousand signatures. It declared, “There’s a difference between abuse and a mistake.”
|
United States41984 Posts
It can be a conservative hit and still be an area where democrats can do better. If anything I welcome the attempts by conservatives to attack democrats who aren’t living up to the highest standards of public conduct. An active opposition is the lifeblood of democracy. Let them work hard to keep democrats honest and let democrats do the same to them.
|
On July 23 2019 00:53 KwarK wrote: It can be a conservative hit and still be an area where democrats can do better. If anything I welcome the attempts by conservatives to attack democrats who aren’t living up to the highest standards of public conduct. An active opposition is the lifeblood of democracy. Let them work hard to keep democrats honest and let democrats do the same to them. Yeah, I personally support the resignation. There's no real reason to be particularly concerned about the downfall of a replaceable Senator in order to make an important political point of supporting the #MeToo movement. The regret I have is that his case is cited among those trying to create a #MeToo backlash, accusing it of witch-hunting and having gone too far and so on. Tweeden seems to have lied about almost all of the important details. I think in the case of Al Franken he clearly behaved inappropriately, while also having the bad luck to be caught at the height of the #MeToo era. Had the case been brought forward at another time he would have probably gotten away with it. But such is politics. Turning him into a martyr would be a horrible mistake and only feed further backlash.
|
On July 23 2019 00:22 Grumbels wrote: They could literally take voting rights away from the elderly and the political landscape would shift dramatically towards more progressive voices. I'm not advocating for this, but I'm just noticing that a group of almost dead people empowers the GOP's nihilistic agenda that will destroy the future of younger voters. The elderly also tend to come from richer backgrounds because of the effect of poverty on life expectation. If politics in an ideal world is about compromising between how you would like things to be and what is practical for now, then there is a clear conflict between the elderly and the young given that the latter are much more adaptable and have a much longer term horizon for what policies would affect them.
But there are better ways to change the electoral system without trying to balance out disenfranchisement of key groups. Aside from the obvious ones that have been mentioned over and over, I also feel like the voting age limit should be lowered to 15. We did compulsory "fake" voting in high school in the Netherlands, where we would follow the political process during election season for our civics class. And I think I've never been better informed about the specifics of political programs than during that period. There is no reason to believe that the quality of the vote of a 15 year old who is supported in their decision making by dedicating part of civics class to the process would be in any way worse than that of an 80 year old. And 15 year olds actually have something at stake given the climate crisis. I personally actually do regret my mock vote, since at the time I was dumb enough to believe a policy program was sufficiently informative about a party's true goals, but overall it was still a positive experience. And it will create a habit of participating in the voting process, which usually improves outcomes. This is something I've been thinking about a lot as well. I can almost guarantee that a 16 year old is much more likely to be in tune with the state of the world than somebody in their 80s who seldom leaves the house and hasn't been part of the workforce or been as active in the community for years. That's not to say that these people's opinion is any less important, but I do think it is unfair that the young people impacted the most by political policy long term don't have any say for several years after they are more than capable of understanding the issues.
|
I would vote for a system where parents would keep the vote of their child until it is of voting age. Here in Germany you can already vote for your parents if they are not capable anymore (if I'm not terribly mistaken). I don't think parents would necessarily vote for their children's best interest... but it would be more fair.
|
|
United States15275 Posts
On July 23 2019 00:22 Grumbels wrote: They could literally take voting rights away from the elderly and the political landscape would shift dramatically towards more progressive voices. I'm not advocating for this, but I'm just noticing that a group of almost dead people empowers the GOP's nihilistic agenda that will destroy the future of younger voters. The elderly also tend to come from richer backgrounds because of the effect of poverty on life expectation. If politics in an ideal world is about compromising between how you would like things to be and what is practical for now, then there is a clear conflict between the elderly and the young given that the latter are much more adaptable and have a much longer term horizon for what policies would affect them.
This disparity will only increase as the U.S. is further forced to rely on immigration to replenish its population (which was the nihilistic byproduct of the progressive agenda). The birth/death ratio of demographics already leans towards a much grayer population in 30-40 years; a lesser version of Japan is in the cards. Casting aside the burden this will place on the prime-age population to support OASDI are other public programs, the elderly will probably coalesce into their own interest group and bypass partisan loyalty altogether.
Immigration will hardly ameliorate these problems. The induction problem makes it unwise to project too far into the future, but multi-ethnic countries are generally defined by long-term conflict as each group prioritizes its self-interest over building and maintaining coalitions. Democrats erroneously believe that the demographic shift will guarantee them lasting control over the House and Senate, a supposition that may be true yet meaningless if events like the kerfuffle over standardized exams in NYC is any indicator.
On July 23 2019 01:37 Ben... wrote: This is something I've been thinking about a lot as well. I can almost guarantee that a 16 year old is much more likely to be in tune with the state of the world than somebody in their 80s who seldom leaves the house and hasn't been part of the workforce or been as active in the community for years. That's not to say that these people's opinion is any less important, but I do think it is unfair that the young people impacted the most by political policy long term don't have any say for several years after they are more than capable of understanding the issues.
A 16 year old is hardly likely to understand the state of the world in a meaningful way. Either that individual will suffer from information overload or selective bias from which sources the individual deems relevant; traditional news outlets and partisan sites are particularly terrible in the latter aspect. The vast majority of people hardly dive into raw data or delineate the principles of political theory.
On July 23 2019 01:00 Grumbels wrote: There's no real reason to be particularly concerned about the downfall of a replaceable Senator in order to make an important political point of supporting the #MeToo movement.
And this is why #MeToo will fail to incite any meaningful change that is not immediately countered by cultural backlash. People don't like it when someone else decides their lives are disposable.
|
United States41984 Posts
I wasn’t aware Al Franken had been executed. Which channel was it broadcast on?
Politician’s careers are disposable in a democracy. That’s the whole point. That’s how it works. If they stop being disposable at the will of the electorate then that’s called dictatorship.
|
On July 23 2019 02:38 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2019 01:00 Grumbels wrote: There's no real reason to be particularly concerned about the downfall of a replaceable Senator in order to make an important political point of supporting the #MeToo movement. And this is why #MeToo will fail to incite any meaningful change that is not immediately countered by cultural backlash. People don't like it when someone else decides their lives are disposable. Except holding public servants to basic moral standards isn't saying their lives are disposable. It's saying we won't put up with that kind of behavior.
I feel like some folks forget that we employ these people.
|
On July 23 2019 02:38 CosmicSpiral wrote:And this is why #MeToo will fail to incite any meaningful change that is not immediately countered by cultural backlash. People don't like it when someone else decides their lives are disposable. Ehm, then they shouldn't have become a politician, who's whole point is that someone else (the people) decides on their career.
|
On July 22 2019 11:22 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 10:05 iamthedave wrote:On July 22 2019 09:01 JimmiC wrote:On July 22 2019 06:35 IgnE wrote: Is this the trial of GreenHorizons? What is the point of this?
Maybe stop asking GH to do what libraries of books have been written to do, and maybe GH limit yourself to particular analyses rather than some vague call to revolution for people who’ve never read a socialist thinker in their life. Nope, it is a matter of people asking me questions and me answering them. I'm sick and tired of him playing victim whenever people call out his offensive BS. If he wants to put it out there, by all means go for it, then defend it. If you don't want to, either don't put it out there or at the very least don't feel sorry for you when people have simple questions about it. I'm still waiting on you providing the quote where GH says he's advocating for the eradication of Israel. You're ridiculously out of line, and the biggest irony is you asking someone else to prove you're being an asshole when you've spent about three pages proving it yourself. You've accused him of saying a ton of stuff he's never said and then demanding he defend these positions he doesn't hold. Does it not occur to you that maybe - just maybe - you're off-base when multiple people who regularly disagree with GH are calling you out? JC may be acting like a dick right now but he's right. GH has been a condescending asshole for years now, constantly dodging questions and then talking down to people to feed his own ego. There's absolutely zero accountability for his ideas in this thread and it's clear where the moderation bias lies. Multiple posters have taken him to task to get some actual, concrete ideas and solutions from him and he dodges every time. Then, when we really start calling him out on it, people like you roll in to give him a smokescreen to slink away behind without having to justify his ideas.
To which I say: BULLSHIT.
I mean, yes, GH has at times been a condescending asshole, but he hasn't acted in that way since he returned basically once. I called him out in the past, too. But I'm not going to just rag on him because of past sins.
Zero accountability? He was literally, totally banned from this entire website at one point. Zero accountability? Who else has faced that level of accountability? XDaunt and Danglars haven't, they've never - as far as I know - gone above a thread ban.
He's one of the posters who tries to back his shit up the HARDEST. Just because he doesn't have a handy 12 step guide to the revolution in his back pocket complete with economic predictions and handy dandy flowcharts doesn't mean he's 'dodging'. Nobody in this thread has the level of 'answers' that are petulantly demanded from him.
|
On July 23 2019 01:00 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2019 00:53 KwarK wrote: It can be a conservative hit and still be an area where democrats can do better. If anything I welcome the attempts by conservatives to attack democrats who aren’t living up to the highest standards of public conduct. An active opposition is the lifeblood of democracy. Let them work hard to keep democrats honest and let democrats do the same to them. Yeah, I personally support the resignation. There's no real reason to be particularly concerned about the downfall of a replaceable Senator in order to make an important political point of supporting the #MeToo movement. The regret I have is that his case is cited among those trying to create a #MeToo backlash, accusing it of witch-hunting and having gone too far and so on. Tweeden seems to have lied about almost all of the important details. I think in the case of Al Franken he clearly behaved inappropriately, while also having the bad luck to be caught at the height of the #MeToo era. Had the case been brought forward at another time he would have probably gotten away with it. But such is politics. Turning him into a martyr would be a horrible mistake and only feed further backlash.
Please cite to me what he did to deserve losing his senate seat (by this I mean describe the exact action for which he was persecuted)?
Franken was not a replaceable senator, he was only one of a few that appeared to have any backbone in the party, which showed in his lines of questioning in congressional hearings. I haven't heard anything of his replacement which either means nobody cares about their voice or they aren't speaking up.
By your logic Biden should then resign from office?
Again, what would he have "gotten away with?"
|
|
|
|