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On July 02 2019 05:45 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:58 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:02 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 01:53 brian wrote:
well, no, then the worst case scenario is that it was entrapment. I have zero issues with entrapment being used to take down shitty people with an amazing amount of power. We have enough history to assume people with incredible power are going to be shit people. I would fully endorse fake offers for illegal intelligence being used on all current democrat candidates. I'm having a hard time putting into words why this seems so problematic. I guess namely that we'd only hold losers accountable? At my job, we are regularly tested by our ability to evade and report corporate espionage and cyber attacks. Retail workers have secret shoppers to see what kinda job they are doing and if they pursue thieves. The basic idea I am assuming is that there is value in making sure points of weakness do not turn into major issues. When politicians are corrupt or unethical, the nature of their job means they can cause extreme harm. As an example, see privatized prisons. To me, the risk is too great to treat politicians as Joe Shmoe. They need to be regularly audited for all the same reasons I am regularly audited. Stuff going bad is too bad to allow. I think the issue I have is that accountability runs downhill. For example, in Trump's case it's the person who told on him who is most likely to be the most harshly punished (presuming he pardons Manafort after the election in Nov win or lose). This is the fundamental problem with trying to reform the system with checks like that, the system will invariably exploit them to push accountability down, not up. This all sounds more like a lack of faith in something being easy rather than a lack of faith in possibility. Society didn't make it this far from everyone saying "yeah but it probably won't work". We need to know what we are aiming for and try to get there. There's some of the points danglars raises as well, but I can only hope that thinking expands beyond reforming a system that will always be designed and dependent on the exploitation which sustains it and onward to revolutionary change of the system which overturns it entirely. Granted anyone but Bernie wins and I'm going all in on preparing for climate collapse and doing what I can to prepare the generations condemned to it by this one. I would like to hope/add that Warren would offer a very similar outcome of change that Sanders would as president. Keep in mind Bernie is my #1.
Warren is too tied to capitalism and fails to see the urgency of direct action by voters imo. Bernie is just the only one that makes me think we're not hopeless, not so much that he's actually going to "save" us.
On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:58 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:02 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I have zero issues with entrapment being used to take down shitty people with an amazing amount of power. We have enough history to assume people with incredible power are going to be shit people. I would fully endorse fake offers for illegal intelligence being used on all current democrat candidates. I'm having a hard time putting into words why this seems so problematic. I guess namely that we'd only hold losers accountable? At my job, we are regularly tested by our ability to evade and report corporate espionage and cyber attacks. Retail workers have secret shoppers to see what kinda job they are doing and if they pursue thieves. The basic idea I am assuming is that there is value in making sure points of weakness do not turn into major issues. When politicians are corrupt or unethical, the nature of their job means they can cause extreme harm. As an example, see privatized prisons. To me, the risk is too great to treat politicians as Joe Shmoe. They need to be regularly audited for all the same reasons I am regularly audited. Stuff going bad is too bad to allow. I think the issue I have is that accountability runs downhill. For example, in Trump's case it's the person who told on him who is most likely to be the most harshly punished (presuming he pardons Manafort after the election in Nov win or lose). This is the fundamental problem with trying to reform the system with checks like that, the system will invariably exploit them to push accountability down, not up. This all sounds more like a lack of faith in something being easy rather than a lack of faith in possibility. Society didn't make it this far from everyone saying "yeah but it probably won't work". We need to know what we are aiming for and try to get there. There's some of the points danglars raises as well, but I can only hope that thinking expands beyond reforming a system that will always be designed and dependent on the exploitation which sustains it and onward to revolutionary change of the system which overturns it entirely. Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies.
Agreed. I've already said that Mondragon is far from perfect, but an example we can learn from too. Want to bet on whether anyone who requested such an example did anything more than check a wiki or something?
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Can I get an answer sir? It isn't hard.
And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two.
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On July 02 2019 06:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Can I get an answer sir? It isn't hard.
It's literally right above you yo
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On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:58 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:02 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I'm having a hard time putting into words why this seems so problematic. I guess namely that we'd only hold losers accountable? At my job, we are regularly tested by our ability to evade and report corporate espionage and cyber attacks. Retail workers have secret shoppers to see what kinda job they are doing and if they pursue thieves. The basic idea I am assuming is that there is value in making sure points of weakness do not turn into major issues. When politicians are corrupt or unethical, the nature of their job means they can cause extreme harm. As an example, see privatized prisons. To me, the risk is too great to treat politicians as Joe Shmoe. They need to be regularly audited for all the same reasons I am regularly audited. Stuff going bad is too bad to allow. I think the issue I have is that accountability runs downhill. For example, in Trump's case it's the person who told on him who is most likely to be the most harshly punished (presuming he pardons Manafort after the election in Nov win or lose). This is the fundamental problem with trying to reform the system with checks like that, the system will invariably exploit them to push accountability down, not up. This all sounds more like a lack of faith in something being easy rather than a lack of faith in possibility. Society didn't make it this far from everyone saying "yeah but it probably won't work". We need to know what we are aiming for and try to get there. There's some of the points danglars raises as well, but I can only hope that thinking expands beyond reforming a system that will always be designed and dependent on the exploitation which sustains it and onward to revolutionary change of the system which overturns it entirely. Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts.
Cool, I guess. What about giving the right to vote to women then?
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On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:58 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:02 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I'm having a hard time putting into words why this seems so problematic. I guess namely that we'd only hold losers accountable? At my job, we are regularly tested by our ability to evade and report corporate espionage and cyber attacks. Retail workers have secret shoppers to see what kinda job they are doing and if they pursue thieves. The basic idea I am assuming is that there is value in making sure points of weakness do not turn into major issues. When politicians are corrupt or unethical, the nature of their job means they can cause extreme harm. As an example, see privatized prisons. To me, the risk is too great to treat politicians as Joe Shmoe. They need to be regularly audited for all the same reasons I am regularly audited. Stuff going bad is too bad to allow. I think the issue I have is that accountability runs downhill. For example, in Trump's case it's the person who told on him who is most likely to be the most harshly punished (presuming he pardons Manafort after the election in Nov win or lose). This is the fundamental problem with trying to reform the system with checks like that, the system will invariably exploit them to push accountability down, not up. This all sounds more like a lack of faith in something being easy rather than a lack of faith in possibility. Society didn't make it this far from everyone saying "yeah but it probably won't work". We need to know what we are aiming for and try to get there. There's some of the points danglars raises as well, but I can only hope that thinking expands beyond reforming a system that will always be designed and dependent on the exploitation which sustains it and onward to revolutionary change of the system which overturns it entirely. Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts.
The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well.
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And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two.
There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you.
The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements.
I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping."
On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:58 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:02 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
At my job, we are regularly tested by our ability to evade and report corporate espionage and cyber attacks.
Retail workers have secret shoppers to see what kinda job they are doing and if they pursue thieves.
The basic idea I am assuming is that there is value in making sure points of weakness do not turn into major issues. When politicians are corrupt or unethical, the nature of their job means they can cause extreme harm. As an example, see privatized prisons. To me, the risk is too great to treat politicians as Joe Shmoe. They need to be regularly audited for all the same reasons I am regularly audited. Stuff going bad is too bad to allow. I think the issue I have is that accountability runs downhill. For example, in Trump's case it's the person who told on him who is most likely to be the most harshly punished (presuming he pardons Manafort after the election in Nov win or lose). This is the fundamental problem with trying to reform the system with checks like that, the system will invariably exploit them to push accountability down, not up. This all sounds more like a lack of faith in something being easy rather than a lack of faith in possibility. Society didn't make it this far from everyone saying "yeah but it probably won't work". We need to know what we are aiming for and try to get there. There's some of the points danglars raises as well, but I can only hope that thinking expands beyond reforming a system that will always be designed and dependent on the exploitation which sustains it and onward to revolutionary change of the system which overturns it entirely. Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well.
Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species.
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On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:58 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I think the issue I have is that accountability runs downhill. For example, in Trump's case it's the person who told on him who is most likely to be the most harshly punished (presuming he pardons Manafort after the election in Nov win or lose).
This is the fundamental problem with trying to reform the system with checks like that, the system will invariably exploit them to push accountability down, not up. This all sounds more like a lack of faith in something being easy rather than a lack of faith in possibility. Society didn't make it this far from everyone saying "yeah but it probably won't work". We need to know what we are aiming for and try to get there. There's some of the points danglars raises as well, but I can only hope that thinking expands beyond reforming a system that will always be designed and dependent on the exploitation which sustains it and onward to revolutionary change of the system which overturns it entirely. Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species.
You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want.
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On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:58 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
This all sounds more like a lack of faith in something being easy rather than a lack of faith in possibility. Society didn't make it this far from everyone saying "yeah but it probably won't work". We need to know what we are aiming for and try to get there. There's some of the points danglars raises as well, but I can only hope that thinking expands beyond reforming a system that will always be designed and dependent on the exploitation which sustains it and onward to revolutionary change of the system which overturns it entirely. Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want.
It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you.
Increased worker ownership and equity between workers.
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On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
There's some of the points danglars raises as well, but I can only hope that thinking expands beyond reforming a system that will always be designed and dependent on the exploitation which sustains it and onward to revolutionary change of the system which overturns it entirely.
Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers.
I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over?
You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end?
Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that?
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On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that?
That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions?
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On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that?
See, the problem is it's very easy to lose motivation to try to dialogue with someone who can say something like
You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order?
while also refusing to engage with socialist/communist theory except through me/posters here. You're not trying to dialogue, you're trying to argue my position is bad without being willing to gather a base understanding of what socialism/communism is so that you can delineate my perspective from others.
On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to.
What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions?
I agree and think we should start with Zero's solutions and work from there.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-attack-portland-andy-ngo-portland-proud-boys-alt-right-a8981331.html
Independent journalist named Andy Ngo attacked by Antifa well filming/reporting on an Antifa/proud boys rally in Portland. I've never heard him him before but from what I gather he general has an anti-Antifa lean to his story's(that could be wrong). Punched with some type of carbon fiber gloves causing him to have a spend a night in hospital with some type of brain hemorrhage. There is also a rumor(that came from the portland police) that the Antifa loonie's were using milkshake's with quick dry cement added which can cause chemical burns, this claim how ever is widely disputed so take that with a grain of salt. There is also a video from the next way where they beat up an older looking man with a crowbar, face bloodied, not sure what this person's story is other then its highly unlikely he deserved a crowbar to the face.
I'm shocked this hasn't been brought up here. What the actual fuck is going on in Portland, does anyone here live there? how can you let this go on in your city, its complete insanity. Portland as far as I know is one of the most progressive places on the planet, what are these people fighting against. From what ive heard the mayor is the one preventing the police from stepping in, if thats the case get that clown out of there and get someone who has a spine to get in there and deal with this insane mess.
I just randomly chose the independent its all over MOST news networks, even Brian Stelter came out against this. Completely disgusting.
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Here are my two questions, Taelshin:
1. Do you remember the last time you had a brain hemorrhage and they let you out of the hospital the next day?
2. Do you remember the last time you tried to mix quick dry cement with sugar?
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On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 04:58 Mohdoo wrote:On July 02 2019 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I think the issue I have is that accountability runs downhill. For example, in Trump's case it's the person who told on him who is most likely to be the most harshly punished (presuming he pardons Manafort after the election in Nov win or lose).
This is the fundamental problem with trying to reform the system with checks like that, the system will invariably exploit them to push accountability down, not up. This all sounds more like a lack of faith in something being easy rather than a lack of faith in possibility. Society didn't make it this far from everyone saying "yeah but it probably won't work". We need to know what we are aiming for and try to get there. There's some of the points danglars raises as well, but I can only hope that thinking expands beyond reforming a system that will always be designed and dependent on the exploitation which sustains it and onward to revolutionary change of the system which overturns it entirely. Which will be replaced with......? Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to. What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species.
Well, we were talking about pre-Enlightenment societies so I meant functioning in a pre-global warming context. Of course, the Roman mining operations in Spain might beg to differ, but that's neither here nor there.
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On July 02 2019 06:56 Taelshin wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-attack-portland-andy-ngo-portland-proud-boys-alt-right-a8981331.htmlIndependent journalist named Andy Ngo attacked by Antifa well filming/reporting on an Antifa/proud boys rally in Portland. I've never heard him him before but from what I gather he general has an anti-Antifa lean to his story's(that could be wrong). Punched with some type of carbon fiber gloves causing him to have a spend a night in hospital with some type of brain hemorrhage. There is also a rumor(that came from the portland police) that the Antifa loonie's were using milkshake's with quick dry cement added which can cause chemical burns, this claim how ever is widely disputed so take that with a grain of salt. There is also a video from the next way where they beat up an older looking man with a crowbar, face bloodied, not sure what this person's story is other then its highly unlikely he deserved a crowbar to the face. I'm shocked this hasn't been brought up here. What the actual fuck is going on in Portland, does anyone here live there? how can you let this go on in your city, its complete insanity. Portland as far as I know is one of the most progressive places on the planet, what are these people fighting against. From what ive heard the mayor is the one preventing the police from stepping in, if thats the case get that clown out of there and get someone who has a spine to get in there and deal with this insane mess. I just randomly chose the independent its all over MOST news networks, even Brian Stelter came out against this. Completely disgusting.
Jesus, I wish I could make £55,000 for an assault that cost me a single night in the hospital and no serious injuries.
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On July 02 2019 07:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Here are my two questions, Taelshin:
1. Do you remember the last time you had a brain hemorrhage and they let you out of the hospital the next day?
2. Do you remember the last time you tried to mix quick dry cement with sugar?
The changing story regarding this oh so outrageous attack has been quite the thing to follow today. Many twists and contortions were seen.
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1: nope never been beatin up by a group of communist thugs(thankfully).
2: nope I like my milkshake's concrete free. I did point out there was conflicting reports on that, and it did come from the police.
Neb 2 Q's
Have you seen the video of the attack?
Do you think the masked thugs were justified?
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On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 05:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Socialism on the path to communism. I can appreciate if you're not familiar with what that entails, but it's literally in the theory that I can't pour the knowledge into you, even if I want to.
What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions?
I'll answer what I would like to see happen and not answer for GH.
Firstly we revamp education for tomorrow. This means what it will be like to live in a society being adversely affected by climate change and how best to understand and remedy as best we can. Following that, we need to drastically fix the perception of income inequality. It isn't taking what the wealthy have earned through their hard work, but redistribution of their stock options and all additional benefits that should be used to promote a healthier working environment for all. You can't zuckerberg your salary and still cash in on stocks and other benefits. You pay a set baseline income and assets tax. You make 5x more than your average worker, not 50x. And you are performance received quarterly by the employees be eat you.
Second, we understand that the world is not our playground and we have a right to stick our noses where it doesn't belong. Foreign policy changes to where the host nation makes the rules if we have a base and I went are not wanted, we leave. Host country pays though. Diplomatic relationship to underserved nations (some southeast asian countries, south american, and most of africa). We use our technology and influence to help them if they want it, achieve a decent quality of life. However they see fit. Any dictators or human rights abusers are sentences in absentia and a coalition of accusing countries work with citizens to fix the problems. But only if 2/3 if G7 members and the country requesting assistance approves.
Lastly, we go to mars.
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On July 02 2019 07:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
What, in today's world, constitutes a good example of communism? If you can't think of one, pick the closest and implement your ideal scenario. If you'd be so kind. Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions? I'll answer what I would like to see happen and not answer for GH. Firstly we revamp education for tomorrow. This means what it will be like to live in a society being adversely affected by climate change and how best to understand and remedy as best we can. Following that, we need to drastically fix the perception of income inequality. It isn't taking what the wealthy have earned through their hard work, but redistribution of their stock options and all additional benefits that should be used to promote a healthier working environment for all. You can't zuckerberg your salary and still cash in on stocks and other benefits. You pay a set baseline income and assets tax. You make 5x more than your average worker, not 50x. And you are performance received quarterly by the employees be eat you. Second, we understand that the world is not our playground and we have a right to stick our noses where it doesn't belong. Foreign policy changes to where the host nation makes the rules if we have a base and I went are not wanted, we leave. Host country pays though. Diplomatic relationship to underserved nations (some southeast asian countries, south american, and most of africa). We use our technology and influence to help them if they want it, achieve a decent quality of life. However they see fit. Any dictators or human rights abusers are sentences in absentia and a coalition of accusing countries work with citizens to fix the problems. But only if 2/3 if G7 members and the country requesting assistance approves. Lastly, we go to mars.
Have you considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas you have there may be to wrestle the reigns of society from our oligarchy and implement a more egalitarian system like say socialism or communism?
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On July 02 2019 07:28 Taelshin wrote:
1: nope never been beatin up by a group of communist thugs(thankfully).
2: nope I like my milkshake's concrete free. I did point out there was conflicting reports on that, and it did come from the police.
Neb 2 Q's
Have you seen the video of the attack?
Do you think the masked thugs were justified?
The dodge! Its soooo damn good
Also, I have seen the video and it looks pretty bad. I also have not seen any other video that might show a different side so I am open to having my view on this change.
But for now it does look like some assholes beat the crap out of this poor guy
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EPT
