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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On July 02 2019 07:28 Taelshin wrote:
1: nope never been beatin up by a group of communist thugs(thankfully).
2: nope I like my milkshake's concrete free. I did point out there was conflicting reports on that, and it did come from the police.
Neb 2 Q's
Have you seen the video of the attack?
Do you think the masked thugs were justified?
Yes.
Assuming you mean morally justified, absolutely, yeah. It wasn't good strategy though.
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The Portland police are moderately untrustworthy on this, in my opinion. It looks like Portland police tweeted something about receiving information about cement in milkshakes after the alt-right started making claims about it, which makes the alt-right the primary source.
There was also this
The Portland Police have since provided no substantiating evidence.
The only person I can find who is even alleged to have been hit with cement is Andy Ngo, and I definitely can't find him outright claiming that chemical burns were in his list of injuries.
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The video of the attack, and lack of video of provocation despite multiple people filming Ngo, tells enough.
I wasn’t really expecting, in the Trump era, for people to jump on whether or not he sustained a brain hemorrhage when there’s video of him attacked by the mob and his cut head. Journalist attached at protest, critics question the extent of his injuries? That’s really the take here?
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On July 02 2019 07:57 Kyadytim wrote:The Portland police are moderately untrustworthy on this, in my opinion. It looks like Portland police tweeted something about receiving information about cement in milkshakes after the alt-right started making claims about it, which makes the alt-right the primary source. https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1145106839618502656There was also this https://twitter.com/katemshepherd/status/1145492073224650753The Portland Police have since provided no substantiating evidence. The only person I can find who is even alleged to have been hit with cement is Andy Ngo, and I definitely can't find him outright claiming that chemical burns were in his list of injuries.
The Portland police are deeply infiltrated by alt right scum. They are 0% trustworthy, especially the new chief of police. There's a growing movement to completely clean house and it is gaining actual steam. I don't expect the police chief to last another year. She is truly terrible.
Besides all of this, there has been a ton of police brutality and other stuff. Even among relatively not extreme people, the Portland police have a very bad reputation.
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The real question is WTF is Portland’s mayor doing letting Antifa run wild.
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On July 02 2019 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 07:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:On July 02 2019 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Some days I'm extremely glad that the internet didn't exist when we transitioned out of monarchies. Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions? I'll answer what I would like to see happen and not answer for GH. Firstly we revamp education for tomorrow. This means what it will be like to live in a society being adversely affected by climate change and how best to understand and remedy as best we can. Following that, we need to drastically fix the perception of income inequality. It isn't taking what the wealthy have earned through their hard work, but redistribution of their stock options and all additional benefits that should be used to promote a healthier working environment for all. You can't zuckerberg your salary and still cash in on stocks and other benefits. You pay a set baseline income and assets tax. You make 5x more than your average worker, not 50x. And you are performance received quarterly by the employees be eat you. Second, we understand that the world is not our playground and we have a right to stick our noses where it doesn't belong. Foreign policy changes to where the host nation makes the rules if we have a base and I went are not wanted, we leave. Host country pays though. Diplomatic relationship to underserved nations (some southeast asian countries, south american, and most of africa). We use our technology and influence to help them if they want it, achieve a decent quality of life. However they see fit. Any dictators or human rights abusers are sentences in absentia and a coalition of accusing countries work with citizens to fix the problems. But only if 2/3 if G7 members and the country requesting assistance approves. Lastly, we go to mars. Have you considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas you have there may be to wrestle the reigns of society from our oligarchy and implement a more egalitarian system like say socialism or communism?
Have you considered that you place too much faith in human nature to bring your dream of communism to fruition without undermining every effort? Have you also considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas I have mentioned above, may include not necessarily relegating 95% of the country to medieval fiefdom just so you can stick it to the man?
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On July 02 2019 08:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 07:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions? I'll answer what I would like to see happen and not answer for GH. Firstly we revamp education for tomorrow. This means what it will be like to live in a society being adversely affected by climate change and how best to understand and remedy as best we can. Following that, we need to drastically fix the perception of income inequality. It isn't taking what the wealthy have earned through their hard work, but redistribution of their stock options and all additional benefits that should be used to promote a healthier working environment for all. You can't zuckerberg your salary and still cash in on stocks and other benefits. You pay a set baseline income and assets tax. You make 5x more than your average worker, not 50x. And you are performance received quarterly by the employees be eat you. Second, we understand that the world is not our playground and we have a right to stick our noses where it doesn't belong. Foreign policy changes to where the host nation makes the rules if we have a base and I went are not wanted, we leave. Host country pays though. Diplomatic relationship to underserved nations (some southeast asian countries, south american, and most of africa). We use our technology and influence to help them if they want it, achieve a decent quality of life. However they see fit. Any dictators or human rights abusers are sentences in absentia and a coalition of accusing countries work with citizens to fix the problems. But only if 2/3 if G7 members and the country requesting assistance approves. Lastly, we go to mars. Have you considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas you have there may be to wrestle the reigns of society from our oligarchy and implement a more egalitarian system like say socialism or communism? Have you considered that you place too much faith in human nature to bring your dream of communism to fruition without undermining every effort? Have you also considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas I have mentioned above, may include not necessarily relegating 95% of the country to medieval fiefdom just so you can stick it to the man?
What is it specifically about workers owning the means of production that is incompatible with human nature?
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On July 02 2019 08:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 07:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:On July 02 2019 06:06 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Republican and democratic forms of government had already successfully existed prior to the Enlightenment. These weren't purely academic concepts. The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions? I'll answer what I would like to see happen and not answer for GH. Firstly we revamp education for tomorrow. This means what it will be like to live in a society being adversely affected by climate change and how best to understand and remedy as best we can. Following that, we need to drastically fix the perception of income inequality. It isn't taking what the wealthy have earned through their hard work, but redistribution of their stock options and all additional benefits that should be used to promote a healthier working environment for all. You can't zuckerberg your salary and still cash in on stocks and other benefits. You pay a set baseline income and assets tax. You make 5x more than your average worker, not 50x. And you are performance received quarterly by the employees be eat you. Second, we understand that the world is not our playground and we have a right to stick our noses where it doesn't belong. Foreign policy changes to where the host nation makes the rules if we have a base and I went are not wanted, we leave. Host country pays though. Diplomatic relationship to underserved nations (some southeast asian countries, south american, and most of africa). We use our technology and influence to help them if they want it, achieve a decent quality of life. However they see fit. Any dictators or human rights abusers are sentences in absentia and a coalition of accusing countries work with citizens to fix the problems. But only if 2/3 if G7 members and the country requesting assistance approves. Lastly, we go to mars. Have you considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas you have there may be to wrestle the reigns of society from our oligarchy and implement a more egalitarian system like say socialism or communism? Have you considered that you place too much faith in human nature to bring your dream of communism to fruition without undermining every effort? Have you also considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas I have mentioned above, may include not necessarily relegating 95% of the country to medieval fiefdom just so you can stick it to the man?
Yes. Remember I started where you are and then researched it instead of what you're doing.
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On July 02 2019 08:16 xDaunt wrote:
The real question is WTF is Portland’s mayor doing letting Antifa run wild.
Portland's entire government takes the perspective of "do nothing, no matter what" as it pertains to violence, drugs, homelessness and police reform.
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On July 02 2019 08:24 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 07:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:And by answer, I mean to the entire post. Mondragon. Go it. You say it isn't the best example but closr to what you'd prefer. Now what would you add to make I better? Remember to take scales of population into consideration and all the differences of the two. There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you. The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements. I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping." On July 02 2019 06:19 Fildun wrote:
[quote]
The term successful seems quite open to interpretation in this context. Functioning would be a better choice of words in my opinion. Still, there have been small scale functioning societies with parallels to socialism and/or communism throughout history as well. Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species. You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions? I'll answer what I would like to see happen and not answer for GH. Firstly we revamp education for tomorrow. This means what it will be like to live in a society being adversely affected by climate change and how best to understand and remedy as best we can. Following that, we need to drastically fix the perception of income inequality. It isn't taking what the wealthy have earned through their hard work, but redistribution of their stock options and all additional benefits that should be used to promote a healthier working environment for all. You can't zuckerberg your salary and still cash in on stocks and other benefits. You pay a set baseline income and assets tax. You make 5x more than your average worker, not 50x. And you are performance received quarterly by the employees be eat you. Second, we understand that the world is not our playground and we have a right to stick our noses where it doesn't belong. Foreign policy changes to where the host nation makes the rules if we have a base and I went are not wanted, we leave. Host country pays though. Diplomatic relationship to underserved nations (some southeast asian countries, south american, and most of africa). We use our technology and influence to help them if they want it, achieve a decent quality of life. However they see fit. Any dictators or human rights abusers are sentences in absentia and a coalition of accusing countries work with citizens to fix the problems. But only if 2/3 if G7 members and the country requesting assistance approves. Lastly, we go to mars. Have you considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas you have there may be to wrestle the reigns of society from our oligarchy and implement a more egalitarian system like say socialism or communism? Have you considered that you place too much faith in human nature to bring your dream of communism to fruition without undermining every effort? Have you also considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas I have mentioned above, may include not necessarily relegating 95% of the country to medieval fiefdom just so you can stick it to the man? What is it specifically about workers owning the means of production that is incompatible with human nature?
We've read about the turn of the century to mid 20th century Soviet Union. And while I didn't saw workers owning means of production would be bad, I don't have faith that it won't be corrupted rather quickly by those with the means to take control of those means.
And GH, I'm still waiting for you to answer any of the questions I posited before. If you don't care to, please state it plainly.
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On July 02 2019 08:36 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:24 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 08:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 07:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you.
The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements.
I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping."
[quote]
Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species.
You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions? I'll answer what I would like to see happen and not answer for GH. Firstly we revamp education for tomorrow. This means what it will be like to live in a society being adversely affected by climate change and how best to understand and remedy as best we can. Following that, we need to drastically fix the perception of income inequality. It isn't taking what the wealthy have earned through their hard work, but redistribution of their stock options and all additional benefits that should be used to promote a healthier working environment for all. You can't zuckerberg your salary and still cash in on stocks and other benefits. You pay a set baseline income and assets tax. You make 5x more than your average worker, not 50x. And you are performance received quarterly by the employees be eat you. Second, we understand that the world is not our playground and we have a right to stick our noses where it doesn't belong. Foreign policy changes to where the host nation makes the rules if we have a base and I went are not wanted, we leave. Host country pays though. Diplomatic relationship to underserved nations (some southeast asian countries, south american, and most of africa). We use our technology and influence to help them if they want it, achieve a decent quality of life. However they see fit. Any dictators or human rights abusers are sentences in absentia and a coalition of accusing countries work with citizens to fix the problems. But only if 2/3 if G7 members and the country requesting assistance approves. Lastly, we go to mars. Have you considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas you have there may be to wrestle the reigns of society from our oligarchy and implement a more egalitarian system like say socialism or communism? Have you considered that you place too much faith in human nature to bring your dream of communism to fruition without undermining every effort? Have you also considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas I have mentioned above, may include not necessarily relegating 95% of the country to medieval fiefdom just so you can stick it to the man? What is it specifically about workers owning the means of production that is incompatible with human nature? We've read about the turn of the century to mid 20th century Soviet Union. And while I didn't saw workers owning means of production would be bad, I don't have faith that it won't be corrupted rather quickly by those with the means to take control of those means. And GH, I'm still waiting for you to answer any of the questions I posited before. If you don't care to, please state it plainly.
As you yourself point out, nothing about socialism or communism inherently makes it more vulnerable to "human nature" than capitalism.
Your argument also presumes "human nature" as you conceive of it is both immutable for socialism/communism while somehow malleable under capitalism
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On July 02 2019 08:36 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:24 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 08:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 07:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:25 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
There's 1000's and 1000's of pages of theory, speeches, etc.. which cover this. I implore you to look into it if you actually want to know, not expect me to pour the knowledge into you.
The most basic thing that can be taken and implemented is expanding worker ownership and increasing equity between workers. Just those two things would be massive improvements.
I'd remind you that "I said I wanted to start a conversation with ideas. You crying that I don't have a plan isn't helping."
[quote]
Functioning might even be a stretch considering the system people are advocating "tuning" is threatening the extinction of our entire species.
You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions? I'll answer what I would like to see happen and not answer for GH. Firstly we revamp education for tomorrow. This means what it will be like to live in a society being adversely affected by climate change and how best to understand and remedy as best we can. Following that, we need to drastically fix the perception of income inequality. It isn't taking what the wealthy have earned through their hard work, but redistribution of their stock options and all additional benefits that should be used to promote a healthier working environment for all. You can't zuckerberg your salary and still cash in on stocks and other benefits. You pay a set baseline income and assets tax. You make 5x more than your average worker, not 50x. And you are performance received quarterly by the employees be eat you. Second, we understand that the world is not our playground and we have a right to stick our noses where it doesn't belong. Foreign policy changes to where the host nation makes the rules if we have a base and I went are not wanted, we leave. Host country pays though. Diplomatic relationship to underserved nations (some southeast asian countries, south american, and most of africa). We use our technology and influence to help them if they want it, achieve a decent quality of life. However they see fit. Any dictators or human rights abusers are sentences in absentia and a coalition of accusing countries work with citizens to fix the problems. But only if 2/3 if G7 members and the country requesting assistance approves. Lastly, we go to mars. Have you considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas you have there may be to wrestle the reigns of society from our oligarchy and implement a more egalitarian system like say socialism or communism? Have you considered that you place too much faith in human nature to bring your dream of communism to fruition without undermining every effort? Have you also considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas I have mentioned above, may include not necessarily relegating 95% of the country to medieval fiefdom just so you can stick it to the man? What is it specifically about workers owning the means of production that is incompatible with human nature? We've read about the turn of the century to mid 20th century Soviet Union. And while I didn't saw workers owning means of production would be bad, I don't have faith that it won't be corrupted rather quickly by those with the means to take control of those means. And GH, I'm still waiting for you to answer any of the questions I posited before. If you don't care to, please state it plainly.
That doesn't answer my question at all.
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"Assuming you mean morally justified, absolutely, yeah. It wasn't good strategy though." - neb
You think they were morally justified attacking an unarmed journalist because he doesn't agree with their point of view? and your only issue with this is "it wasn't good strategy?". That is truly crazy.
Lymoon Maybe a bit of a humorous dodge but I mean its pretty shocking that when provided with a story like this you guys take the line of "hes not hurt that bad" "if it was a brain bleed, he'd be dead or at least still in hospital". Maybe It would have been better if he was just concussed and had the spent the night in the hospital eh? This level of political violence shouldn't be tolerated no matter what side your on.
Also if the Portland PD are so bad and "infiltrated by alt right scum", wouldn't they have been there arresting people and crackin skull's when they were assaulting this guy. From what i've read the Portland PD are told to stand down and not get involved which in itself seems like a horrible decision if true.
This shit is gonna escalate and end badly for everyone involved, if you cant see that i'm not sure what to tell you.
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On July 02 2019 08:46 Taelshin wrote:
"Assuming you mean morally justified, absolutely, yeah. It wasn't good strategy though." - neb
You think they were morally justified attacking a pro-nazi propagandist because he doesn't agree with their point of view? and your only issue with this is "it wasn't good strategy?".
Yeah, I'd second that. Otherwise people try to make some guy hanging around violent people getting hit a martyr of some sort.
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On July 02 2019 08:45 JimmiC wrote:
Some research into what is actually going on in regards to the climate crisis and what actual solutions exist or could exist would make this page a lot more readable and a loss less far fetched.
A paper just came out in Nature magazine that we're going to blow past 1.2C and hit close to 1.8C. The scientists who predicted this back in 2010, said that we'd have to be, as a global community, net-zero by 2050 to stabilize the increase in temperature. With increasing numbers of power plants going online, co2 emissions not being abated quickly enough, it is a dire situation to reach that mark.
Source
UAE just fired up the world's largest solar plant (1.8GW) that can supply 90k people and reduce close to 1mil metric tonnes of co2 emission (from using solar instead of oil/gas). Solar City in the US does about 598GW. I'm also reading about different types of solar cells but the biggest problem is how do we capture the co2 already in the atmosphere. Some are saying algae farms. Some are saying some kind of drone. There are ideas floating but nothing that I fear will reduce it to a level we need.
Source
On July 02 2019 08:42 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:36 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 08:24 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 08:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 07:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:On July 02 2019 06:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 02 2019 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2019 06:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You giving me some kind of idea of where you personally want things to go, is a step. I couldn't care less about your reams of research, when you fail to articulate what you want. It's why you don't already have an idea and why you can't contribute your own though? All you're capable of doing from that position is complaining that you don't understand how it works and that someone should pour the knowledge into your mind. Then lament when they explain that it can't be done as you wish and ignore the answer they did give you. Increased worker ownership and equity between workers. I'll bite while I wait for the train. Increased worker ownership directed by the workers to either collectively bargain for more higher wages or profit sharing? When you say that you wish to use the economic model of a city of 78k and install it unto a nation of 300mil+, who decides the ground rules? What happens to the established methods of transportation and organization now that the captain has left the ship and the sailors have taken over? You've gotten rid of democracy as well know it and have installed your utopian communism vision. Are you in charge of keeping order? I assume you've abolished the police force by now and most of the DOJ. Who is keeping law and order? What is the timeframe you envision from beginning to end? Are we to take each worker who has ownership and equity to be true to their words? To fulfill the duties placed upon them because society needs everyone to chip in? Is the equity truly proportionate or are there still haves and have-nots? How do you overcome that? That's an impressive list of hashtag_concerns. What are your solutions? I'll answer what I would like to see happen and not answer for GH. Firstly we revamp education for tomorrow. This means what it will be like to live in a society being adversely affected by climate change and how best to understand and remedy as best we can. Following that, we need to drastically fix the perception of income inequality. It isn't taking what the wealthy have earned through their hard work, but redistribution of their stock options and all additional benefits that should be used to promote a healthier working environment for all. You can't zuckerberg your salary and still cash in on stocks and other benefits. You pay a set baseline income and assets tax. You make 5x more than your average worker, not 50x. And you are performance received quarterly by the employees be eat you. Second, we understand that the world is not our playground and we have a right to stick our noses where it doesn't belong. Foreign policy changes to where the host nation makes the rules if we have a base and I went are not wanted, we leave. Host country pays though. Diplomatic relationship to underserved nations (some southeast asian countries, south american, and most of africa). We use our technology and influence to help them if they want it, achieve a decent quality of life. However they see fit. Any dictators or human rights abusers are sentences in absentia and a coalition of accusing countries work with citizens to fix the problems. But only if 2/3 if G7 members and the country requesting assistance approves. Lastly, we go to mars. Have you considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas you have there may be to wrestle the reigns of society from our oligarchy and implement a more egalitarian system like say socialism or communism? Have you considered that you place too much faith in human nature to bring your dream of communism to fruition without undermining every effort? Have you also considered that the only way to do the good starting ideas I have mentioned above, may include not necessarily relegating 95% of the country to medieval fiefdom just so you can stick it to the man? What is it specifically about workers owning the means of production that is incompatible with human nature? We've read about the turn of the century to mid 20th century Soviet Union. And while I didn't saw workers owning means of production would be bad, I don't have faith that it won't be corrupted rather quickly by those with the means to take control of those means. And GH, I'm still waiting for you to answer any of the questions I posited before. If you don't care to, please state it plainly. That doesn't answer my question at all.
I did answer. "Because humans are want towards accumulation and corruption of said means of production. If they can find a way to increase output while decreasing input, (more profit/sales to less people/payment), even if they are worker owned, means they will. If you have one person who shifts strategy for the entire group of workers and they see better wages, then that person will inevitably desire more compensation for his idea. Then so on and so forth.
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On July 02 2019 08:46 Taelshin wrote:
"Assuming you mean morally justified, absolutely, yeah. It wasn't good strategy though." - neb
You think they were morally justified attacking an unarmed journalist because he doesn't agree with their point of view? and your only issue with this is "it wasn't good strategy?". That is truly crazy.
I don't think it was justified because he doesn't agree with their point of view, no. I think it was justified for another reason.
Luckily even if I did you would proudly stand for my free speech rights to say things you don't agree with so we're fine either way.
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On July 02 2019 08:50 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
A paper just came out in Nature magazine that we're going to blow past 1.2C and hit close to 1.8C. The scientists who predicted this back in 2010, said that we'd have to be, as a global community, net-zero by 2050 to stabilize the increase in temperature. With increasing numbers of power plants going online, co2 emissions not being abated quickly enough, it is a dire situation to reach that mark.
UAE just fired up the world's largest solar plant (3.2GW) that can supply 90k people and reduce close to 1mil metric tonnes of co2 emission (from using solar instead of oil/gas). Solar City in the US does about 598GW. I'm also reading about different types of solar cells but the biggest problem is how do we capture the co2 already in the atmosphere.
I don't know if you saw but there was a conversation about how almost all of US and Europe's emissions improvements over the last decades have been simply sent to poorer nations with less regulations and tracking. So while I applaud the efforts being made, we're still far from even approaching a net 0 by 2050 goal in individual countries, let alone globally.
Britain, for instance, slashed domestic emissions within its own borders by one-third between 1990 and 2015. But it has done so as energy-intensive industries have migrated abroad. If you included all the global emissions produced in the course of making things like the imported steel used in London’s skyscrapers and cars, then Britain’s total carbon footprint has actually increased slightly over that time.
www.nytimes.com
It continues:
The United States, for its part, remains the world’s leading importer of what the researchers call “embodied carbon.” If the United States were held responsible for all the pollution worldwide that resulted from manufacturing the cars, clothing and other goods that Americans use, the nation’s carbon dioxide emissions would be 14 percent bigger than its domestic-only numbers suggest.
Between 1995 and 2015, the report found, as wealthier countries like Japan and Germany were cutting their own emissions, they were also doubling or tripling the amount of carbon dioxide they outsourced to China.
Under the Paris climate agreement, countries are held responsible only for the emissions produced within their own borders. Experts have long debated whether that makes sense.
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On July 02 2019 08:50 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 08:45 JimmiC wrote:
Some research into what is actually going on in regards to the climate crisis and what actual solutions exist or could exist would make this page a lot more readable and a loss less far fetched. A paper just came out in Nature magazine that we're going to blow past 1.2C and hit close to 1.8C. The scientists who predicted this back in 2010, said that we'd have to be, as a global community, net-zero by 2050 to stabilize the increase in temperature. With increasing numbers of power plants going online, co2 emissions not being abated quickly enough, it is a dire situation to reach that mark. UAE just fired up the world's largest solar plant (3.2GW) that can supply 90k people and reduce close to 1mil metric tonnes of co2 emission (from using solar instead of oil/gas). Solar City in the US does about 598GW. I'm also reading about different types of solar cells but the biggest problem is how do we capture the co2 already in the atmosphere. Some are saying algae farms. Some are saying some kind of drone. There are ideas floating but nothing that I fear will reduce it to a level we need.
We just need someone to find a way to make money off planting trees so capitalism can save us.
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On July 02 2019 08:50 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I did answer. "Because humans are want towards accumulation and corruption of said means of production. If they can find a way to increase output while decreasing input, (more profit/sales to less people/payment), even if they are worker owned, means they will. If you have one person who shifts strategy for the entire group of workers and they see better wages, then that person will inevitably desire more compensation for his idea. Then so on and so forth.
Think of worker ownership as workplace democracy, because that's basically what it is. I don't see how the flaw that you describe makes that system impossible. Can you get into that a little bit?
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EPT
