I have read an interesting article called 'unskilled and unaware of it'; Essentially, one has to be at a certain threshold of skill just to realize how much one doesn't know. At the same time, the highest levels of proficiency can often create a sense of humility as one really gets one's arms around the vastness of a subject. In more detail:
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.
Poll: Do you agree with unskilled people overstimated theirself (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
I don't agree with this article, because a lot of skilled players are arrogant and in my environment the bigger part of people 'unskilled' in some area is usually humild and low-confindence.
To use Brood War as an example, I have a friend who played BW and thought he was amazing. He always told me about how he'd never have any competition, and so I played him one day and he was terrible. He realized that he hadn't seen how good you could actually be.
Edit - Not to say I'm really good or anything, just far better than he was.
of course you'd have to agree with this article, it's only logical
you can't know how badly you suck unless you fully grasp the possible spectrum of achievements
playing sc now makes me realise that although i've considered myself to be decent for years, there were pretty important gameplay things i just didn't comprehend back then and that there are definitely others still eluding my grasp
On April 11 2007 17:45 to miss the mark wrote: I'm skilled enough in Brood War to tell people that I'm unskilled in Brood War.
Yeah same here, thats a really good example. The moment you step out of your old self that used to play money maps you suddenly realize how noob you are in the melee world.
There is nothing wrong with being cocky and over confidant in Brood War. I agree with the article in that unskilled people make erroneous and bad choices, and they don't even realize that they do it, and if we are relating this to video games, if you are confidant you will go into the game thinking you can win, and you will try harder to win, and wont be afraid to attack because you think you are better than this person.
i disagree, i dont think starcraft is a good comparison to humor, logic, and grammar when being tested. i feel that most statistics/studies are/and can be skewed in many ways. usually when i recieve tests back from my classes i can guess how well i did and im usually close within 5-10% of my actual score. and it doesn't happen often when im outside of that.
i would like to see the test that the people were given it wouldn't be fair to judge unless i knew fully what the testee's were given.
Sugo_v_ comes to mind as the unskilled overestimation. (Hence the "idra" complex, dumbass macro Pvt'er, think he stomps everyone ez and a total ignorant otherwise.)
Mondragon comes to me as the competent and intelligent choice maker.Although having a winning rec vs draco at some point, he concedes hes better and is rather satisfied. Despite that onset of a limitation, he is still a strong player and probably is relatively happy the way he is in the bw community.
Incontrol is somewhere in the middle. Overall gm and a solid player, but he'll look down on slash_co for being a shitty player and he'll smack anyone who offends him.
People say I have godly micro, but I highly, highly disagree with what they say to avoid getting overestimated and building up a false sense of pride out of thin air. I play better thinking im worse than my opponent(even when they're not), it calms me and gives me that "I have nothing to lose" attitude.
O yeah, people who go on talking thinking their funny when they're not. Pisses me off.
Man, this also reminds me of nIgol, blackdawn, and a whole bunch of east fags. Ugh.
Fully agree, makes perfect sense. However, there are exceptions, such as people who are very unskilled and admit their own lack of knowledge, although they cannot comprehend it. Perhaps it depends on character, some people are less arrogant than others. I applies vice-versa I think, with skilled people that are just cocky.
Who remembers that little asian kid who thought he was better than all the pro gamers and then he got schooled by some US players with every kind of build. He thought he was the best player ever and he lost to rush, fast tech, etc.
On April 11 2007 17:52 .kaz wrote: There is nothing wrong with being cocky and over confidant in Brood War. I agree with the article in that unskilled people make erroneous and bad choices, and they don't even realize that they do it, and if we are relating this to video games, if you are confidant you will go into the game thinking you can win, and you will try harder to win, and wont be afraid to attack because you think you are better than this person.
Yeah okay, that makes sense.
But this article has nothing to do with that? It's talking about players who think they're better than everyone else because they suck, and have never been exposed to anything better.
I would argue that I'm the best player in my home town at Starcraft (and rather easily, actually) because I've never lost to someone I've known in-person (until the LAN). In fact, they are like 20 APM newbies who I beat in a 4v1 once. Interestingly, every single one of them has told me that they could beat me before actually playing. I don't like to talk much Starcraft in person, so they had no idea how "good/bad" I was. Then after playing me, they realized that they were horribly wrong. Which kind of makes the fact that I think I'm the best player in my town ironic - but unless I lose horribly to someone in-person, I'll keep thinking that. Which is what everyone does, I think. At least I have statistics to back it up -_-;;
On April 11 2007 18:08 MaSSivE.Attack wrote: However, there are exceptions, such as people who are very unskilled and admit their own lack of knowledge, although they cannot comprehend it. Perhaps it depends on character, some people are less arrogant than others. I applies vice-versa I think, with skilled people that are just cocky.
I think that once you have realized, through delving far into one subject, such as starcraft, that most subjects have much more to them than meets the eye, you can admit that you are rarely 'good' at anything. I am actually kind of depressed, looking back on all the things I thought I was good at throughout the years and realizing my knowledge on the subjects was most often elementary at best.
On April 11 2007 18:08 CharlieMurphy wrote: Who remembers that little asian kid who thought he was better than all the pro gamers and then he got schooled by some US players with every kind of build. He thought he was the best player ever and he lost to rush, fast tech, etc.
"Stupid people are those people who are stupid and dont know it; or smart and don't know it
Smart people are those people who are stupid and know it; or smart and know it"
I would say that this pretty much covers the gist of posted article.
I would also like to say that I LOVE reading things like this. And it's no surprise that, amongst starcraft players, we have so many intelligent people ready to share such a wide and interesting amount of information.
Honestly, these kinds of posts are the ONE and only reason I still come to tl and still play starcraft. Props to the BW community and TL.net.
haaha, Lx_Rogue yes AHK-gosu was 100% serious this is interesting , i somewhat already realized it thou -.-; perhaps this is why newbs stay newb forever.. or why ppl who go to korea seem to lose skill sometimes rather then actually getting better... its all psychological
To do a thing, play a game, overestimate yourself and underestimate yourself doesn't really matter. What does matter is what ever you estimate, it brings out the best in you. So for instance, if you are cocky and goes 4 pool, your chance of winning is actually quite good if you have some sense of micro. However, if you underestimate yourself and play too scared, your chance of winning is quite bad. However, overestimate does inpediment your improvement. For you are the king of 4 pool, why should you learn any new strats? You limit your growth because you overestimate your knowledge, and deem yourself that there isn't any more knowledge to learn from. Underestimate, however, may help you improve. For you see the flaws even in your most confident manuvers. You see the field of knowledge so vast, so with some practice you may attain those additional knowledge and become a better player.
Still, correct estimate's best. No more no less, just what it is and you can put this into your calculations with a small error margin.
People say I have godly micro, but I highly, highly disagree with what they say to avoid getting overestimated and building up a false sense of pride out of thin air. I play better thinking im worse than my opponent(even when they're not), it calms me and gives me that "I have nothing to lose" attitude.
O yeah, people who go on talking thinking their funny when they're not. Pisses me off.
Man, this also reminds me of nIgol, blackdawn, and a whole bunch of east fags. Ugh.
The more one learns the more one learns they know nothing. or something like that. The less a person knows the more confident they are that they aren't ignorant because they haven't even learned that other things even exist. A great example is people in the middle ages who thought they were the bomb and that they kew everything when even they stuff they "knew" was in fact wrong or at least we beleive it to be... ie: the world isn't flat mideval nubs.
On the other hand it is nice to know enough or have a certain skill in something at the level that you know you are bad. Since people that are clueless in the area get really impressed.
come to think of it, this is the same idea in martial arts
when you're first starting, you think you're really good. your instructors always encourage you, etc. so by the time you're almost a black belt (ie brown or red belt), you think you are REALLY GOOD.
but then you get your black belt, and your instructor has a talk with you, and he says something along the lines of "those 3-4 years of color belt training was to get your prepared to start actaully learning taekwondo. now that you have your black belt you can finally start. ready to learn taekwondo?"
this applies to self verified situations. if you had say a 1-249 record wiht the 1 being against a guy who suddenly had a heart attack then there isn't much you can say to make yourself look good.
On April 11 2007 18:04 QuietIdiot wrote: Sugo_v_ comes to mind as the unskilled overestimation. (Hence the "idra" complex, dumbass macro Pvt'er, think he stomps everyone ez and a total ignorant otherwise.)
about that making erroneous judgements and using bw as an example, it's always the newbiest players who accuse you of maphacking when you suddenly discover their expo or something like that.
On April 11 2007 18:04 QuietIdiot wrote: Sugo_v_ comes to mind as the unskilled overestimation. (Hence the "idra" complex, dumbass macro Pvt'er, think he stomps everyone ez and a total ignorant otherwise.)
idra complex?
o sorry should have worded that better.
I was talking about how you believed how most foreign tosses are dumbasses who can only pvt by memorzing macro, timing, and being completely mindless, and still winning games. As you put it, PvT is retardedly easy and I'm assuming the same bitches who whine about PvZ imbalance are the same people who think they're gods at PvT and that matchup is not imbalanced at all.
On April 11 2007 18:04 QuietIdiot wrote: Sugo_v_ comes to mind as the unskilled overestimation. (Hence the "idra" complex, dumbass macro Pvt'er, think he stomps everyone ez and a total ignorant otherwise.)
idra complex?
o sorry should have worded that better.
I was talking about how you believed how most foreign tosses are dumbasses who can only pvt by memorzing macro, timing, and being completely mindless, and still winning games. As you put it, PvT is retardedly easy and I'm assuming the same bitches who whine about PvZ imbalance are the same people who think they're gods at PvT and that matchup is not imbalanced at all.
Oh i also love these self proclaimed B.net gosus who can only play PvT on Luna.
As fir the topic yes that is rather obvious nobody everybody want to be good at something, and think about themselves as better I sure would like to be smarter, and have better memory. One of the argument I heard and it is rather common for believing in God is that it makes life more happy even if he doesn't exist (don't want discussion about religion just that one argument that is connected whit topic, and no not every believing person use that argument).
On April 12 2007 13:20 xM(Z wrote: the question is how would you prefer to be?: stupid but confident or intelligent and wimp;
I can't decide .
"Stupid people are those people who are stupid and dont know it; or smart and don't know it
Smart people are those people who are stupid and know it; or smart and know it"
I know that it suppose to sound smart by putting smart on opposite corners, but I like simple definitions that well make sense. There is more things that define your life then just being smart (as IQ/you thinking abilities), just because somebody is not confident it doesn't mean he is not smart.
On April 12 2007 12:14 gg_hertzz wrote: about that making erroneous judgements and using bw as an example, it's always the newbiest players who accuse you of maphacking when you suddenly discover their expo or something like that.
I was even accused of using bot that play for me, guess loosing 1v2 (after my tp was rushed and they loose nothing just that they both did 9pool) were to much for them to handle.
"It strikes me as gruesome and comical that in our culture we have an expectation that man can always solve his problems. This is so untrue that it makes me want to cry--or laugh."
On April 11 2007 18:08 CharlieMurphy wrote: Who remembers that little asian kid who thought he was better than all the pro gamers and then he got schooled by some US players with every kind of build. He thought he was the best player ever and he lost to rush, fast tech, etc.
On April 11 2007 17:46 gLyo wrote: I'd have to agree with this article.
To use Brood War as an example, I have a friend who played BW and thought he was amazing. He always told me about how he'd never have any competition, and so I played him one day and he was terrible. He realized that he hadn't seen how good you could actually be.
Edit - Not to say I'm really good or anything, just far better than he was.
Haha same situation here - I played a guy who was supposedly "pro-caliber" and we bet over 100 USD on a BO3. He turned out to be a 50 APM noob. The games were (how should I say) uhh, illuminating.
On April 11 2007 18:08 CharlieMurphy wrote: Who remembers that little asian kid who thought he was better than all the pro gamers and then he got schooled by some US players with every kind of build. He thought he was the best player ever and he lost to rush, fast tech, etc.
edit - His name was AHK-gosu
lmfao
how the fuck did i msis this thread!?!??!
i think its somewhat true. a lot of the times, those that are truly the best at something tend to not be braggers because they know it.
LOL WTF is there anyway of seeing all the TL playing cards together? i only see a few here and there in different threads when ppl quote them or something. thx =D
On April 13 2007 05:28 pyrogenetix wrote: LOL WTF is there anyway of seeing all the TL playing cards together? i only see a few here and there in different threads when ppl quote them or something. thx =D
This is very true indeed. And it can cause silly problems. I've been taking latin dancing lessons for over a year now, I became quite good and all the girls really like to dance with me preferably.
Yet, all I can think about is how many mistakes I am doing, how terrible my leading is, and I am always worried, that the girls are bored with what I do. I asked my teacher if I can ever by satisfied with my dancing, and she replied: No, nobody will ever be.
On April 13 2007 05:28 pyrogenetix wrote: LOL WTF is there anyway of seeing all the TL playing cards together? i only see a few here and there in different threads when ppl quote them or something. thx =D
On April 13 2007 05:20 ShabZzoY! wrote: This is the "Goldeneye Effect" Anyone who has ever played that old 64 game thinks they are the best in the world at it
eff that, i know im better than 90% of people in that game. we play that drunk allthe time for $ and i always come home with more than i left with =p
On April 13 2007 05:20 ShabZzoY! wrote: This is the "Goldeneye Effect" Anyone who has ever played that old 64 game thinks they are the best in the world at it
eff that, i know im better than 90% of people in that game. we play that drunk allthe time for $ and i always come home with more than i left with =p
That's exactly his point. You can beat your friends. So what? Most people who claim to be "the best" beat their friends.
On April 13 2007 05:20 ShabZzoY! wrote: This is the "Goldeneye Effect" Anyone who has ever played that old 64 game thinks they are the best in the world at it
eff that, i know im better than 90% of people in that game. we play that drunk allthe time for $ and i always come home with more than i left with =p
That's exactly his point. You can beat your friends. So what? Most people who claim to be "the best" beat their friends.
used to play it at my old college all the time with random people in dorms, same result =p
Agree - this is why you will get so much shitty advice in most strat forums (less so here, thankfully) by people convinced they're right, and willing to argue with everyone else for ten pages about the fact they are, and the only way to figure out who actually knows what the fuck they're doing is for people who disagree to play each other, except they never do for whatever reason. So I just wait for midian (or incontrol or daze or etc; <3 for the zerg/terran guides) to post ;D
I think arrogance is different than this, actually, although it probably appears the same.. people who are really good players can also be really arrogant, and people can humbly say they think they're pretty good at something when they're horribly bad at it. I guess it's just better not to be arrogant regardless of skill, although this + arrogance is pretty killer..
On April 13 2007 05:20 ShabZzoY! wrote: This is the "Goldeneye Effect" Anyone who has ever played that old 64 game thinks they are the best in the world at it
eff that, i know im better than 90% of people in that game. we play that drunk allthe time for $ and i always come home with more than i left with =p
That's exactly his point. You can beat your friends. So what? Most people who claim to be "the best" beat their friends.
used to play it at my old college all the time with random people in dorms, same result =p
I played in a college starcraft tournamen and nobody there but me was better than a terrible LT pug. Compare me to the top players in BW and I can't hang.
Yeah I hear alot of people when they get good become very arrogant and think they are the shit. i do know some that are good but dont really speak highly of themselves they know they are good but just keep it on the low.
How else would anyone be able to win money at poker? In real life social situations, dealing with someone who thinks they are the shit but aren't is frustrating: in poker, it's a goldmine.
On April 11 2007 17:44 pzeta wrote: I have read an interesting article called 'unskilled and unaware of it'; Essentially, one has to be at a certain threshold of skill just to realize how much one doesn't know. At the same time, the highest levels of proficiency can often create a sense of humility as one really gets one's arms around the vastness of a subject. In more detail:
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.
Poll: Do you agree with unskilled people overstimated theirself (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
I don't agree with this article, because a lot of skilled players are arrogant and in my environment the bigger part of people 'unskilled' in some area is usually humild and low-confindence.
im sure someone posted this already but because i dont have time to read the thread and just in case they didnt:
How can you play starcraft and disagree with this? Bnet is just one giant example of these results. Ask any random shitty newb on bnet and they will all tell you how good they are
On April 11 2007 17:44 pzeta wrote: I have read an interesting article called 'unskilled and unaware of it'; Essentially, one has to be at a certain threshold of skill just to realize how much one doesn't know. At the same time, the highest levels of proficiency can often create a sense of humility as one really gets one's arms around the vastness of a subject. In more detail:
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.
Poll: Do you agree with unskilled people overstimated theirself (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
I don't agree with this article, because a lot of skilled players are arrogant and in my environment the bigger part of people 'unskilled' in some area is usually humild and low-confindence.
im sure someone posted this already but because i dont have time to read the thread and just in case they didnt:
How can you play starcraft and disagree with this? Bnet is just one giant example of these results. Ask any random shitty newb on bnet and they will all tell you how good they are
The study refers to people in the bottom 25% of skill, and I agree with it. If you're thinking of specific arrogant people in the Starcraft community, odds are that if you could recognize their name then they aren't in the bottom 25% and the article isn't about them. If you took 25% of anyone who's ever played Starcraft, you'd get a lot of 40apm people who are completely unaware of the Korean leagues who would incorrectly think of themselves as roughly average, which is consistent with the findings of the article.
EPT
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