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11589 Posts
While I understand that many of you view s1mple as a toxic player (a term that I am loathe to use myself), would you rather see the team mired in mediocrity as they have been?
There are few people out there as talented as s1mple. Allu declined TL's offer. In terms of immediate improvement, this is an upgrade that the other 2 top NA teams will be hard-pressed to match, and even one that makes TL more dangerous in international competition.
Is it a risk to bring on s1mple? Yes. But you don't get anywhere by playing it safe. Over the past year, TL has built this team from its roots as a middling ESEA Pro team to one of the best in NA. This is the next step they need to take to become internationally relevant.
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csgo is not sc2. You can't have a roster of csgo players that is 80% friendly faces but shit tier and 1-2 guys that ever actually do/win anything. Your entire team suffers greatly for every single person on the roster who has no business being called a pro gamer. The csgo scene simply does not care if a player is toxic if they can perform on lan. liquid has immediately picked up more fans than not for this signing and if results come in, even more so.
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On January 04 2016 07:41 HugoBallzak wrote:
csgo is not sc2. You can't have a roster of csgo players that is 80% friendly faces but shit tier and 1-2 guys that ever actually do/win anything. Your entire team suffers greatly for every single person on the roster who has no business being called a pro gamer. The csgo scene simply does not care if a player is toxic if they can perform on lan.
liquid has immediately picked up more fans than not for this signing and if results come in, even more so.
So you are implying that every pro that isn't "shit tier" is an a** ? o.0
And just b/c "the cs go scene" who you seem to speak for does not care if a player is toxic if s/he can perform on lan it does not mean you can't voice your opinion on these forums that Liquid is selling their values. Apparently ppl here are part of that generalized cs go scene as well, so at least a part of it does care. 
That said, I'm happy for TLpro finding their 5th player after those prolonged negotiations, I'm sure s1mple will deliver 
Kinda disappointed by shafting the values, too, tough.
I guess time will tell if it'll evolve into a team that you can still cheer for (for performance and their values) or you can just cheer for b/c they are #1 .... and gets discarded as as soon as another team buys the top players and gets new #1.
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One could argue that it's actually far more important to avoid toxic players in team games. A player with an attitude has far more of an effect on the performance of their teammates when they have to work together in every game.
That said, team dynamics are hard to predict and it's probably almost as likely that the friendly face turns out to be the one with locker room issues.
Liquid's nice guy branding has been nothing but branding since early SC2 days anyway.
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This is a massive long term mistake. Most experts and commentators generally agree, that NA problems in CS:GO aren't related to talent. There are enough talented NA players. The problem is they are toxic and have terrible practice habits.
So why bring in the most toxic player in Europe, who has never been able to stay in a single team for a long period of time? I guess the whole Flipside debacle wasn't enough.
He's not even that talented. He had a handful of good games. He's nowhere near top 10, but CS:GO is all hype, so most teams figure that out after they sign him and have to deal with his immaturity.
I'm really rooting for Liquid. I hope they can make this work with s1mple. But so many before have failed, it really worries me.
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France9034 Posts
On January 04 2016 07:41 HugoBallzak wrote:
csgo is not sc2. You can't have a roster of csgo players that is 80% friendly faces but shit tier and 1-2 guys that ever actually do/win anything. Your entire team suffers greatly for every single person on the roster who has no business being called a pro gamer. The csgo scene simply does not care if a player is toxic if they can perform on lan. liquid has immediately picked up more fans than not for this signing and if results come in, even more so.
I'm part of this scene and I care. Oh and I believe I'm not the only one.
Do not speak in the name of "the scene", you simply can't. Because you're not entitled to, and because it's not a coherent whole. There's different opinions on certain matters in this "scene".
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On January 04 2016 22:13 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 07:41 HugoBallzak wrote:
csgo is not sc2. You can't have a roster of csgo players that is 80% friendly faces but shit tier and 1-2 guys that ever actually do/win anything. Your entire team suffers greatly for every single person on the roster who has no business being called a pro gamer. The csgo scene simply does not care if a player is toxic if they can perform on lan. liquid has immediately picked up more fans than not for this signing and if results come in, even more so. I'm part of this scene and I care. Oh and I believe I'm not the only one. Do not speak in the name of "the scene", you simply can't. Because you're not entitled to, and because it's not a coherent whole. There's different opinions on certain matters in this "scene".
LOL. You are so right. I obviously meant every single person who follows csgo. Honestly can't wait to see s1mple shit on the rest of NA. All these FPL pug stars gonna have to seriously step up their game if they want their teams to compete with liquid. Barring some last second major pickup by cloud 9 of someone like pronax I dont see how any team is gonna match a liquid lead by hiko and s1mple. Liquid needs a player who isn't going to be happy with shit placings tourny after tourny and honestly, plenty of NA is just as "toxic" as this guy is so he will fit in just fine.
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I don't have much love for s1mple given his past attitude, but I'm very interested to see how a professional organization like Liquid` handles it. If they can get his attitude in check, this could be a huge pickup (then add Pronax and move adren to coach or 6th man).
I've been a Liquid fan for a long time in multiple games, so I'm really pulling to see them be a top international competitor in GO as well.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 04 2016 21:33 Kaewins wrote:
This is a massive long term mistake. Most experts and commentators generally agree, that NA problems in CS:GO aren't related to talent. There are enough talented NA players. The problem is they are toxic and have terrible practice habits.
So why bring in the most toxic player in Europe, who has never been able to stay in a single team for a long period of time? I guess the whole Flipside debacle wasn't enough.
He's not even that talented. He had a handful of good games. He's nowhere near top 10, but CS:GO is all hype, so most teams figure that out after they sign him and have to deal with his immaturity.
I'm really rooting for Liquid. I hope they can make this work with s1mple. But so many before have failed, it really worries me.
He's not even that talented. He had a handful of good games. He's nowhere near top 10, but CS:GO is all hype, so most teams figure that out after they sign him and have to deal with his immaturity.
I'm scared to even ask who is "talented" then.
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On January 05 2016 04:53 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 21:33 Kaewins wrote:
This is a massive long term mistake. Most experts and commentators generally agree, that NA problems in CS:GO aren't related to talent. There are enough talented NA players. The problem is they are toxic and have terrible practice habits.
So why bring in the most toxic player in Europe, who has never been able to stay in a single team for a long period of time? I guess the whole Flipside debacle wasn't enough.
He's not even that talented. He had a handful of good games. He's nowhere near top 10, but CS:GO is all hype, so most teams figure that out after they sign him and have to deal with his immaturity.
I'm really rooting for Liquid. I hope they can make this work with s1mple. But so many before have failed, it really worries me. Show nested quote +
He's not even that talented. He had a handful of good games. He's nowhere near top 10, but CS:GO is all hype, so most teams figure that out after they sign him and have to deal with his immaturity.
I'm scared to even ask who is "talented" then.
indeed. HR with and without s1mple was the difference between competing with the top, and nearly being beaten by female T3 teams. He is ridiculously good.
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I think that the term "toxic" is being interpreted badly by many people. Many act like mentioning that s1mple has a past of being needlessly harsh to his teammates is a judgment against him. I used to be a toxic piece of shit when I was good at CS, and I grew out of it, as have many people. It's a potential hurdle for the player and the team, not something that makes a guy worthless.
I personally couldn't care less if s1mple is a dick (or not) to his teammate. What matters is how it plays out on the server. Does he put everyone on tilt? Does he inspire them and make them want to improve? These things matter.
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Holy shit what a pickup. It'll be really interesting to see how this is going to work out. Not only because of how crazy good and hyped this guy is, but also how TL is going to handle him. I'll definitely be watching Liquid's matches now.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On January 05 2016 05:25 Djzapz wrote:
It's a potential hurdle for the player and the team, not something that makes a guy worthless.
"i'll wait for the results and see whether he changes before i make a conclusion" just isn't as fun a post to make, apparently
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That's what it's been said for every team he joined thus far. It was always "he changed this time", but he never did. You don't go from making racist comments, to insulting your team mates, to "changed" in a few months time. It's just not how human beings function.
The thing with Liquid is, compared to the other teams he's been in, they probably pay him a lot more. I also don't doubt, that he is obliged by contract to not insult any of his team mates this time. Money is a very strong motivator, which could be a game changer for people like him.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
i'm more curious about his decision to move to the US. this is basically the biggest decision he's ever made in his life, and if he doesn't sincerely try to change and make the most of this opportunity, it's going to be a very bad one. he's not going to be in his comfort zone at home anymore, this is a huge risk for both parties. i can't imagine s1mple having many more chances if he screws this up regardless of how talented he is, so i have a feeling he'll take this seriously.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 05 2016 05:25 Djzapz wrote:
I personally couldn't care less if s1mple is a dick (or not) to his teammate. What matters is how it plays out on the server. Does he put everyone on tilt? Does he inspire them and make them want to improve? These things matter.
I mean, it's one thing to be a dick in general. It's another to be a dick towards your teammates. A player isn't toxic because they're an asshole; they're toxic because they negatively affect team chemistry. If you can't grind your way through losing streaks without blowing up the whole thing, it's a problem. And that's historically been an issue in NA - bad practice/planning habits and short fuses, leading to worse chemistry and too much instability.
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The biggest risk liquid is running is keeping adren on the team. A player that low can tilt a player like s1mple pretty easily.
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On January 05 2016 16:12 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2016 05:25 Djzapz wrote:
I personally couldn't care less if s1mple is a dick (or not) to his teammate. What matters is how it plays out on the server. Does he put everyone on tilt? Does he inspire them and make them want to improve? These things matter. I mean, it's one thing to be a dick in general. It's another to be a dick towards your teammates. A player isn't toxic because they're an asshole; they're toxic because they negatively affect team chemistry. If you can't grind your way through losing streaks without blowing up the whole thing, it's a problem. And that's historically been an issue in NA - bad practice/planning habits and short fuses, leading to worse chemistry and too much instability.
I don't think that "they're toxic because they negatively affect team chemistry" is necessarily true. This is not a binary world, people and teams react differently to the inputs. I think it's fair to say that a team like VP which has dealt and continues to deal with a fair bit of "toxicity" from time to time can deal with it better than some others. There have been teams that have succeeded DESPITE "toxicity" (which I feel is now a term that is being dragged through the mud). That's because the player brings more to the team with individual talent (perhaps like s1mple can) or with good leadership (Dazed) than they take away by being assholes to their teammates, but also because some people just don't tilt when they get yelled at and others completely fall apart. It depends.
Plus s1mple is 17 or something. He might still grow up, he might be motivated, being in a proper team that gives a decent salary probably unlike HR. Maybe TL will be able to make use of him.
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United States22883 Posts
I don't know. I saw teams succeed with players like that but the writing was always on the wall. It was short term success and it always came back to bite them in spectacularly entertaining ways. Then again, the writing is always on the wall for everyone, even stable teams. It just always struck me that the best teams could have jerks in them, but still be fairly drama free because they weren't nasty to each other.
I'm sure the scene is significantly different from when I was in it, but on the surface this seems to me like the same gamble NA teams make time and time again. Very, very occasionally those players grow up and become leaders, but most of the time the gamble leads to the same instability NA has always suffered from. Raw talent and short term success placed above long term development.
I think we get too attached to narratives on potential and skill caps, so we falsely believe the only way a player will grow is through maturity. I think it's equally possible for "skill capped" players to improve, even if their reaction time isn't getting quicker, and no one gives enough credit to that. Even the way people are talking about adreN here surprises me, like he's dead meat and can't keep up anymore.
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Sad to see teamliquid get cheaters in their team. Other people will think: well, cheating is not that bad. And even if i get caught, i can play in the best teams in the world.
Nice job TL
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EPT
