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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 19 2015 03:31 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 04:28 frazzle wrote:Hard to keep reading past this line: "The secular substitutes for religion — nationalism, racism and political ideology — have all led to disaster." Like any of those three aren't also connected to religion. And what about Humanism and the Enlightenment? Are those failures? SMH David Brooks. well to be fair, an argument could be made that humanism has failed. what we have today is feminism, racialism, economic determinism etc. the enlightenment value of individual liberty has largely been displaced by a culture of collectivism and identity politics.
Freedom of speech, property rights, equality against the law, and a few others are the pillars of western civilization, that took hundreds (thousands) of years and costed millions of lifes to come into existence. We inherited those and we are slowly throwing them to the trasher. We should stop meddling with the middle east, and defend our nations vigorously.
The opposite of this half-ass wars with open borders.
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On November 19 2015 03:31 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 04:28 frazzle wrote:Hard to keep reading past this line: "The secular substitutes for religion — nationalism, racism and political ideology — have all led to disaster." Like any of those three aren't also connected to religion. And what about Humanism and the Enlightenment? Are those failures? SMH David Brooks. well to be fair, an argument could be made that humanism has failed. what we have today is feminism, racialism, economic determinism etc. the enlightenment value of individual liberty has largely been displaced by a culture of collectivism and identity politics.
Culture of collectivism? What? You mean having a safety net?
Racialism? What is that? You mean people speaking out over being targeted by their race?
Feminism? Feminism is anti-enlightenment? Isn't feminism a continuation of the enlightenment ideal of the sanctity of the individual and the finding of meaning outside of religion?
People just throw these loaded terms out there, they're dog whistles for the right crowd, but they add nothing to the discussion. Present a real argument please.
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On November 19 2015 03:55 frazzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 03:31 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 18 2015 04:28 frazzle wrote:Hard to keep reading past this line: "The secular substitutes for religion — nationalism, racism and political ideology — have all led to disaster." Like any of those three aren't also connected to religion. And what about Humanism and the Enlightenment? Are those failures? SMH David Brooks. well to be fair, an argument could be made that humanism has failed. what we have today is feminism, racialism, economic determinism etc. the enlightenment value of individual liberty has largely been displaced by a culture of collectivism and identity politics. Culture of collectivism? What? You mean having a safety net? Racialism? What is that? You mean people speaking out over being targeted by their race? Feminism? Feminism is anti-enlightenment? Isn't feminism a continuation of the enlightenment ideal of the sanctity of the individual and the finding of meaning outside of religion? People just throw these loaded terms out there, they're dog whistles for the right crowd, but they add nothing to the discussion. Present a real argument please.
He is not wrong that a certain feminism and a certain anti racism have lead to "secessionnist" movements (like the refusal of men in feminist movements or the idea that all white and dominant by nature in the anti racist movement). But it is not a failure of humanism, rather the proof that humanism has been let down by our society and that we fail to find a way to unify the diversity of suffering.
I often time oppose the civil right movement in the US, with its very deep knowledge of the dynamics of societies and the desire to extend the fight beyond the race question (to fight againt all form of poverty) and the anti racist movement in France that, for some, barely question capitalism and inequalities.
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I wonder what the best fix to getting rid of Daesh would be.
I'm waiting for a witty pseudo-intellectual to tell me what they would do, so that we can live in a world where terrorists don't have free-reign to do what they just did.
From my point of view, daesh needs to be erased from the map.
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you hope and pray for the second coming 'cause you need some miracles in here.
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On November 19 2015 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:
Then you don't need to pay for imam but rather control where the money is coming and where it is going. You can also penalize imam that preach salafism. And most of all, you need to help kids to get good education and find work.
Going back on what is one of the most cherrished law in France is ridiculous, especially considering radicalism also exist in other countries where laicité does not exist (the UK, belgium).
I don't think penalizing Imams that teach unconstitutional stuff is going to work so well. It's hard to get a grip on what happens in some random backroom in a Banlieue. I don't think negative and prohibitive measures are enough. There need to be some positive policies. What's the problem with publicly educating Imams in French universities and creating a curriculum that brings secularists and Muslims together? This is the same problem that Evangelicalism in the US has. If you leave religion to itself it promotes cultism and isolationism.
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On November 18 2015 18:34 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 16:28 FFW_Rude wrote:On November 18 2015 07:36 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 07:28 FFW_Rude wrote:On November 18 2015 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 05:27 Ghanburighan wrote:
Related events in Hanover happening now:
Edit: -_- Stealthblue... 24 seconds, really? And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned. While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam. Selon le Ministre de l'Intérieur de Basse-Saxe, contrairement à ce qui a été annoncé par certains médias locaux, il n'y a eu aucune arrestation et aucun explosif n'a été découvert après l'annulation du match Allemagne-Pays-Bas qui devait se disputer ce soir à Hanovre. Minister of basse-saxe said that contrary to what was told by local media, there was no arrestation and nno explosives has beenn found after the cancellation of the Germany/Netherlland football match that should havee been at Hanovre tonight. http://www.liberation.fr/direct/ That doesn't change the fact that the threat might have been real and credible. You have to consider that the match was canceled by the police based on what they must have considered credible sources and not some random citizen crying "bomb" over an unattended bag... On November 18 2015 07:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned. While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam. Some are, though the right in many countries barely make the rhetorical distinction let alone a real distinction. The German politician wanting more fences to control the refugees comes to mind, or the ones saying they look less like refugees and more like an army. Not to mention people around the world claiming ISIS represents "real" Islam. The right is playing right into ISIS's hands whether they like it or not. You are grossly conflating issues and paraphrasing out of context. I have nothing to consider. I, like you, know nothing (John Snow) so i'm not making asumptions nor judgment, i just copy paste the information i have. Then we are in agreement - I was calling for maartendq to refrain from jumping the gun and calling it simple paranoia. I have no idea how substantial the threat was (nor does anyone else here). French police seems to have gotten quickly ahead of things - I don't recall any terrorist attack with as many arrests as this one has had. Solid work!
Everything right now is paranoia. I refuse to adapt my behaviour in any way possible. They are envious of our freedom and wealth, and I will stick it into their faces that it is our societies, our ways of life that have made all this possible, not backward tribalism, blaming others for your own misery and a rigid and opportunistic interpretation of a holy book.
The French government wants to increase military presence on the Parisian streets. The Belgian government wants to double police presence in Brussels. Why is it so hard for people to accept that unpredictable terrorists cannot be stopped by raw military strength?
Mourn the dead, then get on with your lives. The best way to defeat terrorists is to show them that fear will not make us change who we are and what we stand for. Seventy years ago hundreds of thousands of people were willing to lay their lives on the line to defend this way of life against totalitarian ideologies. Nowadays it seems that people would rather cower away.
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According to the anthropologist I heard on the radio yesterday, the first sign of radicalization for a future terrorist in France is that they stop going to the mosque, because they're told that the imam is a sellout to the enemy, and that mosques are under surveillance. Social links are removed and it's easier to continue to manipulate. So yeah, discussing imams is a little pointless if that's right.
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On November 19 2015 04:25 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:
Then you don't need to pay for imam but rather control where the money is coming and where it is going. You can also penalize imam that preach salafism. And most of all, you need to help kids to get good education and find work.
Going back on what is one of the most cherrished law in France is ridiculous, especially considering radicalism also exist in other countries where laicité does not exist (the UK, belgium). I don't think penalizing Imams that teach unconstitutional stuff is going to work so well. It's hard to get a grip on what happens in some random backroom in a Banlieue. I don't think negative and prohibitive measures are enough. There need to be some positive policies. What's the problem with publicly educating Imams in French universities and creating a curriculum that brings secularists and Muslims together? This is the same problem that Evangelicalism in the US has. If you leave religion to itself it promotes cultism and isolationism.
In the city I work a dozen of kids have gone to syria. Everybody knew where it came from : the imam was a salafist, and nobody did a fucking thing about it for years because it would have "stigmatized" muslim. So yeah it is pretty simple, always saying that a measure is inefficient before it is implemented but asking for a complete change of one of our most important law, without any proof that it will actually do any good, is funny to me. At the moment, nobody is made to actually fight against radicalisation in mosque.
And positive policies should not be specifically for muslim, but universal : education and work for everyone. In the banlieu you're talking about, unemployment for young kids is above 40 %
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On November 19 2015 04:27 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 18:34 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 16:28 FFW_Rude wrote:On November 18 2015 07:36 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 07:28 FFW_Rude wrote:On November 18 2015 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned. While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam. Selon le Ministre de l'Intérieur de Basse-Saxe, contrairement à ce qui a été annoncé par certains médias locaux, il n'y a eu aucune arrestation et aucun explosif n'a été découvert après l'annulation du match Allemagne-Pays-Bas qui devait se disputer ce soir à Hanovre. Minister of basse-saxe said that contrary to what was told by local media, there was no arrestation and nno explosives has beenn found after the cancellation of the Germany/Netherlland football match that should havee been at Hanovre tonight. http://www.liberation.fr/direct/ That doesn't change the fact that the threat might have been real and credible. You have to consider that the match was canceled by the police based on what they must have considered credible sources and not some random citizen crying "bomb" over an unattended bag... On November 18 2015 07:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned. While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam. Some are, though the right in many countries barely make the rhetorical distinction let alone a real distinction. The German politician wanting more fences to control the refugees comes to mind, or the ones saying they look less like refugees and more like an army. Not to mention people around the world claiming ISIS represents "real" Islam. The right is playing right into ISIS's hands whether they like it or not. You are grossly conflating issues and paraphrasing out of context. I have nothing to consider. I, like you, know nothing (John Snow) so i'm not making asumptions nor judgment, i just copy paste the information i have. Then we are in agreement - I was calling for maartendq to refrain from jumping the gun and calling it simple paranoia. I have no idea how substantial the threat was (nor does anyone else here). French police seems to have gotten quickly ahead of things - I don't recall any terrorist attack with as many arrests as this one has had. Solid work! Everything right now is paranoia. I refuse to adapt my behaviour in any way possible. They are envious of our freedom and wealth, and I will stick it into their faces that it is our societies, our ways of life that have made all this possible, not backward tribalism, blaming others for your own misery and a rigid and opportunistic interpretation of a holy book. The French government wants to increase military presence on the Parisian streets. The Belgian government wants to double police presence in Brussels. Why is it so hard for people to accept that unpredictable terrorists cannot be stopped by raw military strength? Mourn the dead, then get on with your lives. The best way to defeat terrorists is to show them that fear will not make us change who we are and what we stand for. Seventy years ago hundreds of thousands of people were willing to lay their lives on the line to defend this way of life against totalitarian ideologies. Nowadays it seems that people would rather cower away.
Ignoring it like you suggest would be the cowered way actually.
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On November 19 2015 04:16 Incognoto wrote:
I wonder what the best fix to getting rid of Daesh would be.
I'm waiting for a witty pseudo-intellectual to tell me what they would do, so that we can live in a world where terrorists don't have free-reign to do what they just did.
From my point of view, daesh needs to be erased from the map.
in case you missed it earlier:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9351/index1.html
provides a good primer on what to do.
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On November 19 2015 04:06 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 03:55 frazzle wrote:On November 19 2015 03:31 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 18 2015 04:28 frazzle wrote:Hard to keep reading past this line: "The secular substitutes for religion — nationalism, racism and political ideology — have all led to disaster." Like any of those three aren't also connected to religion. And what about Humanism and the Enlightenment? Are those failures? SMH David Brooks. well to be fair, an argument could be made that humanism has failed. what we have today is feminism, racialism, economic determinism etc. the enlightenment value of individual liberty has largely been displaced by a culture of collectivism and identity politics. Culture of collectivism? What? You mean having a safety net? Racialism? What is that? You mean people speaking out over being targeted by their race? Feminism? Feminism is anti-enlightenment? Isn't feminism a continuation of the enlightenment ideal of the sanctity of the individual and the finding of meaning outside of religion? People just throw these loaded terms out there, they're dog whistles for the right crowd, but they add nothing to the discussion. Present a real argument please. He is not wrong that a certain feminism and a certain anti racism have lead to "secessionnist" movements (like the refusal of men in feminist movements or the idea that all white and dominant by nature in the anti racist movement). But it is not a failure of humanism, rather the proof that humanism has been let down by our society and that we fail to find a way to unify the diversity of suffering. I often time oppose the civil right movement in the US, with its very deep knowledge of the dynamics of societies and the desire to extend the fight beyond the race question (to fight againt all form of poverty) and the anti racist movement in France that, for some, barely question capitalism and inequalities.
Do these secessionist movements have any real political clout? Or any substantial representation amongst the populace? Or are they outliers that basically have little to do with the functioning of society, but make great headlines and facebook memes?
I visit some right-wing sites to keep up on what's got their panties in a bundle at the moment, and I have seen and visited links to feminists who literally advocate eventually sterilizing men and placing them in regulated preserves away from society. When I see that stuff I literally LOL because it is such an extreme view that has literally NO support and will never in any way happen that it makes me laugh at how scared it gets the right people.
In France I get that integration of Algerians and other Arabs has been less successful than integration of most immigrants, including Arabs, in the states has been. I have friends from France who speak of it, and I can't really address it first hand.
In the states, racialism in this sense seems to refer to African-Americans. I think in this use it is implied that African-Americans cling too much to their racial identity and perpetuate their own inequality through their stubborn refusal to let it go and integrate. This to me is clearly hogwash. People on the right suggest "Black Lives Matter" is a terrorist organization. That is laughable. Outside of a brief moment in the late sixties when Black nationalism was a legitimate movement, there has been no serious anti-integration element to racial politics in the states for 40 years. Can you find the odd guy with a beret monitoring a voting center from afar, sending white folks into a tizzy making facebook memes? Yes. But that kind of thing has no real relation to actual people's lives in the states.
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On November 19 2015 04:55 frazzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 04:06 WhiteDog wrote:On November 19 2015 03:55 frazzle wrote:On November 19 2015 03:31 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 18 2015 04:28 frazzle wrote:Hard to keep reading past this line: "The secular substitutes for religion — nationalism, racism and political ideology — have all led to disaster." Like any of those three aren't also connected to religion. And what about Humanism and the Enlightenment? Are those failures? SMH David Brooks. well to be fair, an argument could be made that humanism has failed. what we have today is feminism, racialism, economic determinism etc. the enlightenment value of individual liberty has largely been displaced by a culture of collectivism and identity politics. Culture of collectivism? What? You mean having a safety net? Racialism? What is that? You mean people speaking out over being targeted by their race? Feminism? Feminism is anti-enlightenment? Isn't feminism a continuation of the enlightenment ideal of the sanctity of the individual and the finding of meaning outside of religion? People just throw these loaded terms out there, they're dog whistles for the right crowd, but they add nothing to the discussion. Present a real argument please. He is not wrong that a certain feminism and a certain anti racism have lead to "secessionnist" movements (like the refusal of men in feminist movements or the idea that all white and dominant by nature in the anti racist movement). But it is not a failure of humanism, rather the proof that humanism has been let down by our society and that we fail to find a way to unify the diversity of suffering. I often time oppose the civil right movement in the US, with its very deep knowledge of the dynamics of societies and the desire to extend the fight beyond the race question (to fight againt all form of poverty) and the anti racist movement in France that, for some, barely question capitalism and inequalities. Do these secessionist movements have any real political clout? Or any substantial representation amongst the populace? Or are they outliers that basically have little to do with the functioning of society, but make great headlines and facebook memes?I visit some right-wing sites to keep up on what's got their panties in a bundle at the moment, and I have seen and visited links to feminists who literally advocate eventually sterilizing men and placing them in regulated preserves away from society. When I see that stuff I literally LOL because it is such an extreme view that has literally NO support and will never in any way happen that it makes me laugh at how scared it gets the right people. In France I get that integration of Algerians and other Arabs has been less successful than integration of most immigrants, including Arabs, in the states has been. I have friends from France who speak of it, and I can't really address it first hand. In the states, racialism in this sense seems to refer to African-Americans. I think in this use it is implied that African-Americans cling too much to their racial identity and perpetuate their own inequality through their stubborn refusal to let it go and integrate. This to me is clearly hogwash. People on the right suggest "Black Lives Matter" is a terrorist organization. That is laughable. Outside of a brief moment in the late sixties when Black nationalism was a legitimate movement, there has been no serious anti-integration element to racial politics in the states for 40 years. Can you find the odd guy with a beret monitoring a voting center from afar, sending white folks into a tizzy making facebook memes? Yes. But that kind of thing has no real relation to actual people's lives in the states.
You're right but are there any inclusive movement that actually represent a dynamic in europe ? In this matter I believe the US is very different with France, because the blacklivematter movement is actually deeper than our anti racist movement. It is a political movement (while our anti racism is more of an organisational movement very oriented towards judiciary matters and very limited to racism).
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On November 19 2015 04:16 Incognoto wrote:
I wonder what the best fix to getting rid of Daesh would be.
I'm waiting for a witty pseudo-intellectual to tell me what they would do, so that we can live in a world where terrorists don't have free-reign to do what they just did.
From my point of view, daesh needs to be erased from the map.
Problem is there is 0 ways to "erase Daesh from the map" At best we bomb the middle east into a dust bowl then the only survivors are people who America (and allies) murdered their families. Creating a new more angry and righteous terror group.
You can't stop terrorists with surveillance and such short of a total police state and even then you'll be fighting a losing battle. Terrorism has to be beaten at the social level.
Even then it can't be absolute. So long as it's more appealing to die for their cause than it is to live under the oppression they will continue to pick dying/killing. Whether they are actually oppressed (in non-Muslim folks eyes) is irrelevant.
This seems to be one of the hardest parts for westerners get. It doesn't matter what "you" think about whether Muslims are being oppressed, the only thing that matters is what various Muslim communities think.
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Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD
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On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD
that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire.
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On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD
They know because it was said by French police. But you can know REALLY easilly because everytime a cop fire his weapon, he have to tell it. So they know how much clips were used. They give ammunition to police force. I'm making number up but..
- A police officier is given two clips of 15 bullets.
- He fire during service.
- His bullets are counted..
- If he fire 3 rounds
- He gets 3 rounds.
Maybe someone will correct me but i remember it as the way it is.
On topic here is the summary.
Après la série d'attaques sans précédent qui a fait au moins 129 morts et plus de 350 blessés (dont 41 sont encore en réanimation) à Paris et à Saint-Denis dans la soirée du vendredi 13 novembre, un assaut policier a été lancé mercredi matin avant l'aube à Saint-Denis, en proche banlieue parisienne. L'opération a duré sept heures.
• Au moins deux suspects sont morts lors de cet assaut, dont une femme kamikaze qui s'est fait exploser. Il n'est pas exclu qu'un troisième terroriste ait pu être tué.
• Huit personnes, dont trois qui étaient retranchées dans l'appartement, ont été interpellées et placées en garde à vue.
• Abdelhamid Abaaoud, organisateur présumé des attaques de vendredi, était la cible de l'assaut. On ignore s'il se trouvait dans l'appartement. Il ne fait pas partie des gardés à vue et les suspects tués dans l'opération ne sont pas encore identifiés.
• En plus d'Abdelhamid Abaaoud, les enquêteurs traquent Salah Abdeslam, 26 ans, soupçonné d'être l'un des tireurs qui ont mitraillé vendredi les terrasses de cafés et restaurants parisiens, avec son frère Brahim Abdeslam, qui s'est fait exploser.
• Neuf jihadistes, et non huit comme annoncé au départ, ont semé la terreur vendredi à Paris : trois kamikazes aux abords du Stade de France, trois autres dans la salle de spectacles du Bataclan et trois assaillants pour les terrasses de bars et restaurants.
• Cinq d'entre eux ont été identifiés, tous sont Français. Trois autres membres du commando sont toujours en cours d'identification. Il s'agit de l'un des hommes ayant participé à l'attaque du Bataclan, mort lors de l'assaut de la police à l'étage de la salle de concert, et de deux des kamikazes du Stade de France dont celui qui a été retrouvé porteur d'un passeport syrien.
• Les 129 personnes mortes dans les attentats ont toutes été identifiées.
- 2 dead terrorists during the raid assault of this night.
- 8 detained. 3 of 'em were in the apprtment..
- We don't know if the brain of operation was in the appartement. He is not in the 8 detained.
- The 2 dead aren't identified yet
- The killer from the cafe's assault is still at large.
- 9 terrorist and not 8 were in paris during fridday night. There was a third man for the cafe's assaults.
- 5 of 'em are identified. All French.
- All 129 victims have been identified.
Not from the article.
on TV the prime minister talked about 132 dead. Apparently there is someone that have been found dead in hhis appartement near the bataclan. Could be a lost bullet.
From the same website :
- England will assist France in the war.
- France is moving its carrier Charles de Gaule to sirian sea.
- 15 Dead from two woman kamikaz in nigeria
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On November 19 2015 04:25 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:
Then you don't need to pay for imam but rather control where the money is coming and where it is going. You can also penalize imam that preach salafism. And most of all, you need to help kids to get good education and find work.
Going back on what is one of the most cherrished law in France is ridiculous, especially considering radicalism also exist in other countries where laicité does not exist (the UK, belgium). I don't think penalizing Imams that teach unconstitutional stuff is going to work so well. It's hard to get a grip on what happens in some random backroom in a Banlieue. I don't think negative and prohibitive measures are enough. There need to be some positive policies. What's the problem with publicly educating Imams in French universities and creating a curriculum that brings secularists and Muslims together? This is the same problem that Evangelicalism in the US has. If you leave religion to itself it promotes cultism and isolationism.
We don't have the culture to do that in France. We don't have a good grasp of the Muslim tradition here. Sure, we have some scholars, and a good amount of people who know a lot about Islam, but we don't have nearly enough people to create an organised, systematic teaching of the Islamic religion.
When it comes to christianism, everyone knows what it's about, knows several important stories from the Bible and, more than that (that's actually the important part), has some idea of what Christian tradition looks like : how the tradition interpreted the teachings of the Bible.
For example, every single philosophy teacher in France (there are a ton of them, and they teach to each and every young French since philosophy is taught in our high schools) knows a great deal about christianism through the great philosophers that discussed it : Descartes, Pascal, Leibniz, etc.
We just don't have the equivalent of that for the Islamic tradition. I'll take myself as an example ; I know pretty much every major christian teaching, I know different interpretations of it, I know some problems that are linked to it, etc., and I'm not even christian. I'm just a French dude among others. We can't suddenly create Islamic scholarship out of nowhere, which means that young Muslims in France can't be guided like young Christians are.
The situation may "suck" but at the end of the day, even if it's a patchwork solution, penalizing radical imams seems like the only realistic option left for France. And we can't just decide to teach more about Islam in our classes because for the majority of us French people Islam is absolutely nothing. Christianism on the other hand, is an interesting topic for everyone here because it framed the way we live, the way we think, and is a part of our history.
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On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire.
I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen?
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On November 19 2015 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire. I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen?
I am not shocked. My bother and I could rip through 900 rounds on a pistol in just a day of target shooting. I bet there were a lot of cops there and it wouldn't take much fire. Plus god knows what the other side was using.
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EPT
