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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 19 2015 06:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire. I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen? I am not shocked. My bother and I could rip through 900 rounds on a pistol in just a day of target shooting. I bet there were a lot of cops there and it wouldn't take much fire. Plus god knows what the other side was using.
Well it works out to ~4 30 rd clips shot by each cop if there were at least 40 cops shooting (the targets we're all in a single apartment no?).
Could be just a dangerous waste of ammo but the more likely explanation (imo) is that folks capitalized on a hazy amount of shots fired to take some ammo home.
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The most troubling part of this raid is that someone like Abaaoud can go back from Syria without anyone knowing.
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Zurich15366 Posts
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In 2011. Gratz. Long live Germany. I wonder how many shots in Syria.
On November 19 2015 06:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire. I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen? I am not shocked. My bother and I could rip through 900 rounds on a pistol in just a day of target shooting. I bet there were a lot of cops there and it wouldn't take much fire. Plus god knows what the other side was using.
And who do you want to kill with those 900 rounds ? Just wondering.
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On November 19 2015 06:41 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire. I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen? Because those video lasted an hour like the fight and were top notch quality ? And i'm assuming you have a really good hearing of automatic rifles.
Well who are we suggesting was firing automatic rifles? As far as I know the French police don't use automatic weapons anyway.
Presumably we don't only hear police shooting in the videos, as for hearing automatic weapons, I'm guessing you have never shot anything along those lines (or been in the presence of someone else shooting them) because it's very easy to distinguish semi automatic fire from automatic.
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On November 19 2015 06:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 06:41 FFW_Rude wrote:On November 19 2015 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire. I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen? Because those video lasted an hour like the fight and were top notch quality ? And i'm assuming you have a really good hearing of automatic rifles. Well who are we suggesting was firing automatic rifles? As far as I know the French police don't use automatic weapons anyway. Presumably we don't only hear police shooting in the videos, as for hearing automatic weapons, I'm guessing you have never shot anything along those lines (or been in the presence of someone else shooting them) because it's very easy to distinguish semi automatic fire from automatic.
My bad. They don't have automatic weapons
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://cdn1-public.ladmedia.fr/var/public/storage/images/news/attentat-a-charlie-hebdo-les-stars-saluent-la-bravoure-du-gign-et-du-raid-655700/8821224-1-fre-FR/Attentat-a-Charlie-Hebdo-les-stars-saluent-la-bravoure-du-GIGN-et-du-RAID_portrait_w674.jpg?) ![[image loading]](http://i.skyrock.net/2966/74052966/pics/2912992965_small_1.jpg) Glock 17, et encore un peu : o Beretta M-92F, o Glock 19, o Glock 26; * Glock 18 ; * Heckler and Koch G36 ; * Heckler & Koch MP-5k ; * Heckler & Koch 53; * SIG 553 SOW; * FN-P90 - VIP protection ; * Remington M870 Police ; * Bennelli Super 90 M3 ; * Molot Vepr 12 ; * Beretta M3P ; * Franchi SPAS 15 ; * Fusil de précision PGM Ultima Ratio, .308 Winchester; * Fusil de précision longue portée PGM Hécate II .50 BMG ; * Heckler & Koch PSG-1 ; * FN Minimi ; * Heckler & Koch MG3 ; * Heckler & Koch 69. * Sig-Sauer SP 2022
And no i never fired an automatic weapon.
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I think we should all also keep in mind that automatic weapons can usually be used for semi-automatic fire. So if you're hearing semi-auto shots in something, it doesn't mean the gun it's coming from can't also fire full auto.
On November 19 2015 04:28 Nebuchad wrote:
According to the anthropologist I heard on the radio yesterday, the first sign of radicalization for a future terrorist in France is that they stop going to the mosque, because they're told that the imam is a sellout to the enemy, and that mosques are under surveillance. Social links are removed and it's easier to continue to manipulate. So yeah, discussing imams is a little pointless if that's right.
That's an interesting point, but your defeatist conclusion doesn't seem right. Wouldn't it still be important to enlist the help of imams and the community so they could give tip off authorities to radicals?
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3 radio station received threats. They ask employes to remain at home
Les personnels des stations locales du groupe NRJ (NRJ, Chérie FM, Nostalgie) sont priés de rester chez eux demain, à la demande de la direction, suite à des «menaces» contre le groupe, selon un courriel interne dont l'AFP a obtenu copie.
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On November 19 2015 06:54 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 06:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:41 FFW_Rude wrote:On November 19 2015 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire. I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen? Because those video lasted an hour like the fight and were top notch quality ? And i'm assuming you have a really good hearing of automatic rifles. Well who are we suggesting was firing automatic rifles? As far as I know the French police don't use automatic weapons anyway. Presumably we don't only hear police shooting in the videos, as for hearing automatic weapons, I'm guessing you have never shot anything along those lines (or been in the presence of someone else shooting them) because it's very easy to distinguish semi automatic fire from automatic. My bad. They don't have automatic weapons + Show Spoiler + Glock 17, et encore un peu : o Beretta M-92F, o Glock 19, o Glock 26; * Glock 18 ; * Heckler and Koch G36 ; * Heckler & Koch MP-5k ; * Heckler & Koch 53; * SIG 553 SOW; * FN-P90 - VIP protection ; * Remington M870 Police ; * Bennelli Super 90 M3 ; * Molot Vepr 12 ; * Beretta M3P ; * Franchi SPAS 15 ; * Fusil de précision PGM Ultima Ratio, .308 Winchester; * Fusil de précision longue portée PGM Hécate II .50 BMG ; * Heckler & Koch PSG-1 ; * FN Minimi ; * Heckler & Koch MG3 ; * Heckler & Koch 69. * Sig-Sauer SP 2022 And no i never fired an automatic weapon.
My bad I was looking at the standard police as opposed to France's SWAT equivalent. But as was said just because they are capable doesn't mean that's how they were used.
Doesn't strike me as a big deal either way other than if 5k bullets were shot but less than 1% hit the people they were aiming at sounds reckless.
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On November 19 2015 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 06:23 Plansix wrote:On November 19 2015 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire. I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen? I am not shocked. My bother and I could rip through 900 rounds on a pistol in just a day of target shooting. I bet there were a lot of cops there and it wouldn't take much fire. Plus god knows what the other side was using. Well it works out to ~4 30 rd clips shot by each cop if there were at least 40 cops shooting (the targets we're all in a single apartment no?). Could be just a dangerous waste of ammo but the more likely explanation (imo) is that folks capitalized on a hazy amount of shots fired to take some ammo home.
According to our military estimates in the last war in Iraq(possible Afghanistan too) we used ~240,000 bullets per 1 extremist death.
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/01/10/gao-u-s-has-fired-250000-rounds-for-every-insurgent-killed/
So I wouldn't be surprised to learn that 5000 rounds had been used in 1 day.
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No one fires in automatic mode. You'll get through a clip in ~2 seconds otherwise. If you siege a single location for several hours, fighting going back and forth, 5000 shots doesn' seem over the top.
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This isn't action movies. Once a real fire fight breaks out, people end up expending a lot of ammo. And considering the found a rocket launcher a couple days ago, I don't think the French were fucking around.
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On November 19 2015 07:19 FromShouri wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:23 Plansix wrote:On November 19 2015 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire. I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen? I am not shocked. My bother and I could rip through 900 rounds on a pistol in just a day of target shooting. I bet there were a lot of cops there and it wouldn't take much fire. Plus god knows what the other side was using. Well it works out to ~4 30 rd clips shot by each cop if there were at least 40 cops shooting (the targets we're all in a single apartment no?). Could be just a dangerous waste of ammo but the more likely explanation (imo) is that folks capitalized on a hazy amount of shots fired to take some ammo home. According to our military estimates in the last war in Iraq(possible Afghanistan too) we used ~240,000 bullets per 1 extremist death. http://jonathanturley.org/2011/01/10/gao-u-s-has-fired-250000-rounds-for-every-insurgent-killed/So I wouldn't be surprised to learn that 5000 rounds had been used in 1 day.
It's the video games. People for some reason seem to think that there is point fire or firing at a very specific target. In war zones you shoot at areas. Enemy is in building x and three soldiers try to shoot at that building for example.
Today they shot at appartments, probably constant fire to surpress them so that they can't just spray the streets or the general area in their last stand.
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On November 19 2015 07:24 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 07:19 FromShouri wrote:On November 19 2015 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:23 Plansix wrote:On November 19 2015 06:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 19 2015 06:12 zlefin wrote:On November 19 2015 06:02 Laurens wrote:
Some Belgian newspaper reports that more than 5000 bullets were used today.
Not sure how they could possibly know that, but if it's true that's pretty crazy xD that's pretty common in combats with automatic weapons. Most of the bullets are used in suppressing fire. I didn't hear any automatic weapons in the videos I've seen? I am not shocked. My bother and I could rip through 900 rounds on a pistol in just a day of target shooting. I bet there were a lot of cops there and it wouldn't take much fire. Plus god knows what the other side was using. Well it works out to ~4 30 rd clips shot by each cop if there were at least 40 cops shooting (the targets we're all in a single apartment no?). Could be just a dangerous waste of ammo but the more likely explanation (imo) is that folks capitalized on a hazy amount of shots fired to take some ammo home. According to our military estimates in the last war in Iraq(possible Afghanistan too) we used ~240,000 bullets per 1 extremist death. http://jonathanturley.org/2011/01/10/gao-u-s-has-fired-250000-rounds-for-every-insurgent-killed/So I wouldn't be surprised to learn that 5000 rounds had been used in 1 day. It's the video games. People for some reason seem to think that there is point fire or firing at a very specific target. In war zones you shoot at areas. Enemy is in building x and three soldiers try to shoot at that building for example. Today they shot at appartments, probably constant fire to surpress them so that they can't just spray the streets or the general area in their last stand.
I really think video games have instilled a very unrealistic expectation as to how accurate fire arms can be in a real fire fight.
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So basically what happened is that the RAID attacked around 4 AM but the door actually resisted to the explosives used by the police. Because of that, the terrorist had the opportunity to defend themselves, take arms, and they exchanged fire for a long time (more than an hour) almost without interruption - which explain the 5 000 shots from the police.
The building that they fired upon almost crumbled, the floor of the third floor actually fell at some point.
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They used 80 grenades too (iirc on today's France2 news).
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On November 19 2015 06:19 Maluk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 04:25 Nyxisto wrote:On November 19 2015 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:
Then you don't need to pay for imam but rather control where the money is coming and where it is going. You can also penalize imam that preach salafism. And most of all, you need to help kids to get good education and find work.
Going back on what is one of the most cherrished law in France is ridiculous, especially considering radicalism also exist in other countries where laicité does not exist (the UK, belgium). I don't think penalizing Imams that teach unconstitutional stuff is going to work so well. It's hard to get a grip on what happens in some random backroom in a Banlieue. I don't think negative and prohibitive measures are enough. There need to be some positive policies. What's the problem with publicly educating Imams in French universities and creating a curriculum that brings secularists and Muslims together? This is the same problem that Evangelicalism in the US has. If you leave religion to itself it promotes cultism and isolationism. We don't have the culture to do that in France. We don't have a good grasp of the Muslim tradition here. Sure, we have some scholars, and a good amount of people who know a lot about Islam, but we don't have nearly enough people to create an organised, systematic teaching of the Islamic religion. When it comes to christianism, everyone knows what it's about, knows several important stories from the Bible and, more than that (that's actually the important part), has some idea of what Christian tradition looks like : how the tradition interpreted the teachings of the Bible. For example, every single philosophy teacher in France (there are a ton of them, and they teach to each and every young French since philosophy is taught in our high schools) knows a great deal about christianism through the great philosophers that discussed it : Descartes, Pascal, Leibniz, etc. We just don't have the equivalent of that for the Islamic tradition. I'll take myself as an example ; I know pretty much every major christian teaching, I know different interpretations of it, I know some problems that are linked to it, etc., and I'm not even christian. I'm just a French dude among others. We can't suddenly create Islamic scholarship out of nowhere, which means that young Muslims in France can't be guided like young Christians are. The situation may "suck" but at the end of the day, even if it's a patchwork solution, penalizing radical imams seems like the only realistic option left for France. And we can't just decide to teach more about Islam in our classes because for the majority of us French people Islam is absolutely nothing. Christianism on the other hand, is an interesting topic for everyone here because it framed the way we live, the way we think, and is a part of our history.
You don't need to have to know how Muslim tradition has developed, you just need to know what you want <uslim tradition to be.
That is the point, create a curriculum, and say "this is officially what Islam is... at least if you want to be an imam in France"
Horrible violation of Freedom of religion (American understanding), but it sounds like they do that in Sweden.
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My thoughts and prayers with France and the french people. Also good luck to the future, because honestly I see things getting much worse for you guys...
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EPT
