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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 18 2015 05:27 Ghanburighan wrote:
Related events in Hanover happening now:
Edit: -_- Stealthblue... 24 seconds, really?
And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms.
Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives.
I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives.
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On November 18 2015 05:38 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 05:26 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:12 Nyxisto wrote:
Well capitalism and secularism are actually pretty closely connected, can't really run a capitalist society without secularism, at least not a working one, pretty much all of these terrorist organisations are staunchly anti-capitalist, too. I'm also afraid candy crush doesn't cut it.
I think people are underestimating how naturally people are drawn to violence, most people aren't humanists. I think the most important reason why the US does not have this domestic radicalism problem to the degree France has is because Americans can simply join the army and kick ISIS in the butt. Wait, so capitalism is equated with secularism? Or is it communism? Or socialism? Wait, are all economic systems secular? You can't have it both ways. In the States in particular, capitalism is strongly linked to the "Protestant Work Ethic". I think it pointless to waste time equating secularism or religion with economic ideologies. But if you wish to address the disenfranchisement of sectors of the population, most commonly you are referring to economic isolation (not, for example, their right to vote or participate in the political process). If you are referring to their economic isolation, to unemployment and the lack of opportunity, then you should be looking at the economics at play and spend less time trying to blame humanism. I mean, it's a real red herring if there ever was one. I think the most important quality of religious extremism is the communitarian ideology along a certain core of values.It's appeal is that it spins the world into a narrative of good and evil, fighting and so on, all the stuff young men are very susceptible to. It's why everybody loves violent games and movies instead of filling out the tax form. Just look at how ISIS propaganda works, they're selling it as an "adventure". In that sense communism has a lot in common with religious movements and in contrast the "Protestant work ethic" isn't actually very religious at all. Just removing poverty isn't going to cut it. The Western World needs to build some kind of society again that actually deserves the label with positive values and so on.
OK. Let's sum up as we are drifting. Brook's writes column saying radicalism is caused by lack of religion and overabundant secularism. I mock his argument and dispute his characterization of secularism and its supposed lack of enervating principles. You say he is right, disenfranchised youths have no ideology worth embracing outside of radical fundamentalism. I say the values of humanism are fulfilling for me (and imply for many many others). Maybe rather than looking at secular vs religious, we should look to the economics to address the concerns of the disenfranchised, for example, capitalism. You suggest capitalism = secularism/humanism. I provide counter-example. You dismiss counter-example and strenuously insist capitalism = secularism/humanism.
So, once again I will suggest you are comparing apples to oranges.
It has long been conventional belief (if perhaps not entirely true) that Protestantism fostered the development of capitalism. See Max Weber. Even if he overstates his case, it has been shown that early capitalism and western christianity flourished hand in hand. Another example is prosperity gospel here in the states. Here we have religion again well adapted to and even encouraging a capitalistic world view. To suggest capitalism is anathema to religion just flies in the face of the facts.
Meanwhile, many humanists agonize over the capitalism and view it as fundamentally incompatible with social justice and humane society. Not all humanists as some point to capitalism's promotion of human creativity and ingenuity as a good thing, but it is a far cry to reach the conclusion that capitalism is either religious or secular in nature. It is neither. It is an economic system, not a religious system. You are comparing apples and oranges.
So laying the blame for religious fundamentalism at the feet of humanists seems just as backward as you can get.
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On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives.
Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict.
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On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives.
...It's a little early for you to know the credibility of these threats and what's happening there.
On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict.
There will never be something as vague and absurd as a "war against Muslims." To the extent that ISIS would like there to be more fighting against Islamic extremism (that they've already begun), it doesn't bode too well for their self-preservation.
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On November 18 2015 06:10 frazzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 05:38 Nyxisto wrote:On November 18 2015 05:26 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:12 Nyxisto wrote:
Well capitalism and secularism are actually pretty closely connected, can't really run a capitalist society without secularism, at least not a working one, pretty much all of these terrorist organisations are staunchly anti-capitalist, too. I'm also afraid candy crush doesn't cut it.
I think people are underestimating how naturally people are drawn to violence, most people aren't humanists. I think the most important reason why the US does not have this domestic radicalism problem to the degree France has is because Americans can simply join the army and kick ISIS in the butt. Wait, so capitalism is equated with secularism? Or is it communism? Or socialism? Wait, are all economic systems secular? You can't have it both ways. In the States in particular, capitalism is strongly linked to the "Protestant Work Ethic". I think it pointless to waste time equating secularism or religion with economic ideologies. But if you wish to address the disenfranchisement of sectors of the population, most commonly you are referring to economic isolation (not, for example, their right to vote or participate in the political process). If you are referring to their economic isolation, to unemployment and the lack of opportunity, then you should be looking at the economics at play and spend less time trying to blame humanism. I mean, it's a real red herring if there ever was one. I think the most important quality of religious extremism is the communitarian ideology along a certain core of values.It's appeal is that it spins the world into a narrative of good and evil, fighting and so on, all the stuff young men are very susceptible to. It's why everybody loves violent games and movies instead of filling out the tax form. Just look at how ISIS propaganda works, they're selling it as an "adventure". In that sense communism has a lot in common with religious movements and in contrast the "Protestant work ethic" isn't actually very religious at all. Just removing poverty isn't going to cut it. The Western World needs to build some kind of society again that actually deserves the label with positive values and so on. OK. Let's sum up as we are drifting. Brook's writes column saying radicalism is caused by lack of religion and overabundant secularism. I mock his argument and dispute his characterization of secularism and its supposed lack of enervating principles. You say he is right, disenfranchised youths have no ideology worth embracing outside of radical fundamentalism. I say the values of humanism are fulfilling for me (and imply for many many others). Maybe rather than looking at secular vs religious, we should look to the economics to address the concerns of the disenfranchised, for example, capitalism. You suggest capitalism = secularism/humanism. I provide counter-example. You dismiss counter-example and strenuously insist capitalism = secularism/humanism. So, once again I will suggest you are comparing apples to oranges. It has long been conventional belief (if perhaps not entirely true) that Protestantism fostered the development of capitalism. See Max Weber. Even if he overstates his case, it has been shown that early capitalism and western christianity flourished hand in hand. Another example is prosperity gospel here in the states. Here we have religion again well adapted to and even encouraging a capitalistic world view. To suggest capitalism is anathema to religion just flies in the face of the facts. Meanwhile, many humanists agonize over the capitalism and view it as fundamentally incompatible with social justice and humane society. Not all humanists as some point to capitalism's promotion of human creativity and ingenuity as a good thing, but it is a far cry to reach the conclusion that capitalism is either religious or secular in nature. It is neither. It is an economic system, not a religious system. You are comparing apples and oranges. So laying the blame for religious fundamentalism at the feet of humanists seems just as backward as you can get.
Just quickly jumping to support your point that religion and capitalism are linked, aside for Weber, many others point out such link. For exemple, Hirschman makes a link between catholicism and capitalism in a very famous article named the passion and the interests.
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On November 18 2015 04:28 frazzle wrote:Hard to keep reading past this line: "The secular substitutes for religion — nationalism, racism and political ideology — have all led to disaster." Like any of those three aren't also connected to religion. And what about Humanism and the Enlightenment? Are those failures? SMH David Brooks.
I also felt that the first part of the Op Ed was pretty shaky. The salient point for me was in the second half, where he seems - and maybe I'm being a little too generous here - to be trying to articulate a form of religion which is both definitely religious and not incompatible with humanism and/or secularism.
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On November 18 2015 06:18 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:10 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:38 Nyxisto wrote:On November 18 2015 05:26 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:12 Nyxisto wrote:
Well capitalism and secularism are actually pretty closely connected, can't really run a capitalist society without secularism, at least not a working one, pretty much all of these terrorist organisations are staunchly anti-capitalist, too. I'm also afraid candy crush doesn't cut it.
I think people are underestimating how naturally people are drawn to violence, most people aren't humanists. I think the most important reason why the US does not have this domestic radicalism problem to the degree France has is because Americans can simply join the army and kick ISIS in the butt. Wait, so capitalism is equated with secularism? Or is it communism? Or socialism? Wait, are all economic systems secular? You can't have it both ways. In the States in particular, capitalism is strongly linked to the "Protestant Work Ethic". I think it pointless to waste time equating secularism or religion with economic ideologies. But if you wish to address the disenfranchisement of sectors of the population, most commonly you are referring to economic isolation (not, for example, their right to vote or participate in the political process). If you are referring to their economic isolation, to unemployment and the lack of opportunity, then you should be looking at the economics at play and spend less time trying to blame humanism. I mean, it's a real red herring if there ever was one. I think the most important quality of religious extremism is the communitarian ideology along a certain core of values.It's appeal is that it spins the world into a narrative of good and evil, fighting and so on, all the stuff young men are very susceptible to. It's why everybody loves violent games and movies instead of filling out the tax form. Just look at how ISIS propaganda works, they're selling it as an "adventure". In that sense communism has a lot in common with religious movements and in contrast the "Protestant work ethic" isn't actually very religious at all. Just removing poverty isn't going to cut it. The Western World needs to build some kind of society again that actually deserves the label with positive values and so on. OK. Let's sum up as we are drifting. Brook's writes column saying radicalism is caused by lack of religion and overabundant secularism. I mock his argument and dispute his characterization of secularism and its supposed lack of enervating principles. You say he is right, disenfranchised youths have no ideology worth embracing outside of radical fundamentalism. I say the values of humanism are fulfilling for me (and imply for many many others). Maybe rather than looking at secular vs religious, we should look to the economics to address the concerns of the disenfranchised, for example, capitalism. You suggest capitalism = secularism/humanism. I provide counter-example. You dismiss counter-example and strenuously insist capitalism = secularism/humanism. So, once again I will suggest you are comparing apples to oranges. It has long been conventional belief (if perhaps not entirely true) that Protestantism fostered the development of capitalism. See Max Weber. Even if he overstates his case, it has been shown that early capitalism and western christianity flourished hand in hand. Another example is prosperity gospel here in the states. Here we have religion again well adapted to and even encouraging a capitalistic world view. To suggest capitalism is anathema to religion just flies in the face of the facts. Meanwhile, many humanists agonize over the capitalism and view it as fundamentally incompatible with social justice and humane society. Not all humanists as some point to capitalism's promotion of human creativity and ingenuity as a good thing, but it is a far cry to reach the conclusion that capitalism is either religious or secular in nature. It is neither. It is an economic system, not a religious system. You are comparing apples and oranges. So laying the blame for religious fundamentalism at the feet of humanists seems just as backward as you can get. Just quickly jumping to support your point that religion and capitalism are linked, aside for Weber, many others point out such link. For exemple, Hirschman makes a link between catholicism and capitalism in a very famous article named the passion and the interests.
I think we're talking about two fundamentally different versions of religion here. ISIS religious extremism is about "other-worldliness", mysticism, moral zeal and so on. Weber's Protestantism is a handy tool for people to get out of the bed at six to plough the fields for 12 hours. Especially for Calvinists there is no this world/that world split, it's completely different.
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On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives.
didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium?
think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game...
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On November 18 2015 06:12 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. ...It's a little early for you to know the credibility of these threats and what's happening there. Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. There will never be something as vague and absurd as a "war against Muslims." To the extent that ISIS would like there to be more fighting against Islamic extremism (that they've already begun), it doesn't bode too well for their self-preservation.
Being in Korea you may not be aware of how far gone the American right is. Somewhere between 20 and 50% of Republicans think Islam should be outlawed in the US altogether. Not Sharia law, but the entire religion of Islam should be criminal according to these folks.
Yes that would be unconstitutional and hypocritical but that's the reality here. It's a major reason why the language used is so important over here. The generalizations of Islam have a profound impact on the perceptions of low-information Americans and in effect promote the war on Islam you find to be vague and absurd.
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On November 18 2015 06:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:12 oBlade wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. ...It's a little early for you to know the credibility of these threats and what's happening there. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. There will never be something as vague and absurd as a "war against Muslims." To the extent that ISIS would like there to be more fighting against Islamic extremism (that they've already begun), it doesn't bode too well for their self-preservation. Being in Korea you may not be aware of how far gone the American right is. Somewhere between 20 and 50% of Republicans think Islam should be outlawed in the US altogether. Not Sharia law, but the entire religion of Islam should be criminal according to these folks. Yes that would be unconstitutional and hypocritical but that's the reality here. It's a major reason why the language used is so important over here. The generalizations of Islam have a profound impact on the perceptions of low-information Americans and in effect promote the war on Islam you find to be vague and absurd.
Now I see why trump can promise to build walls along both borders and remain in the race
lmao
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On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game...
Can't find that on quality newspaper websites.
stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned.
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On November 18 2015 06:29 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:12 oBlade wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. ...It's a little early for you to know the credibility of these threats and what's happening there. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. There will never be something as vague and absurd as a "war against Muslims." To the extent that ISIS would like there to be more fighting against Islamic extremism (that they've already begun), it doesn't bode too well for their self-preservation. Being in Korea you may not be aware of how far gone the American right is. Somewhere between 20 and 50% of Republicans think Islam should be outlawed in the US altogether. Not Sharia law, but the entire religion of Islam should be criminal according to these folks. Yes that would be unconstitutional and hypocritical but that's the reality here. It's a major reason why the language used is so important over here. The generalizations of Islam have a profound impact on the perceptions of low-information Americans and in effect promote the war on Islam you find to be vague and absurd. Now I see why trump can promise to build walls along both borders and remain in the race lmao
It would be funny if we were Moldova or something, but considering we have massive resources and the most powerful military in the world, that a significant portion of our population wants to make Islam a crime should terrify everyone.
If you could create a dream enemy to rally people around for ISIS the international "right" and especially the extreme right in America would be even better than the dream version.
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On November 18 2015 06:23 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:18 WhiteDog wrote:On November 18 2015 06:10 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:38 Nyxisto wrote:On November 18 2015 05:26 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:12 Nyxisto wrote:
Well capitalism and secularism are actually pretty closely connected, can't really run a capitalist society without secularism, at least not a working one, pretty much all of these terrorist organisations are staunchly anti-capitalist, too. I'm also afraid candy crush doesn't cut it.
I think people are underestimating how naturally people are drawn to violence, most people aren't humanists. I think the most important reason why the US does not have this domestic radicalism problem to the degree France has is because Americans can simply join the army and kick ISIS in the butt. Wait, so capitalism is equated with secularism? Or is it communism? Or socialism? Wait, are all economic systems secular? You can't have it both ways. In the States in particular, capitalism is strongly linked to the "Protestant Work Ethic". I think it pointless to waste time equating secularism or religion with economic ideologies. But if you wish to address the disenfranchisement of sectors of the population, most commonly you are referring to economic isolation (not, for example, their right to vote or participate in the political process). If you are referring to their economic isolation, to unemployment and the lack of opportunity, then you should be looking at the economics at play and spend less time trying to blame humanism. I mean, it's a real red herring if there ever was one. I think the most important quality of religious extremism is the communitarian ideology along a certain core of values.It's appeal is that it spins the world into a narrative of good and evil, fighting and so on, all the stuff young men are very susceptible to. It's why everybody loves violent games and movies instead of filling out the tax form. Just look at how ISIS propaganda works, they're selling it as an "adventure". In that sense communism has a lot in common with religious movements and in contrast the "Protestant work ethic" isn't actually very religious at all. Just removing poverty isn't going to cut it. The Western World needs to build some kind of society again that actually deserves the label with positive values and so on. OK. Let's sum up as we are drifting. Brook's writes column saying radicalism is caused by lack of religion and overabundant secularism. I mock his argument and dispute his characterization of secularism and its supposed lack of enervating principles. You say he is right, disenfranchised youths have no ideology worth embracing outside of radical fundamentalism. I say the values of humanism are fulfilling for me (and imply for many many others). Maybe rather than looking at secular vs religious, we should look to the economics to address the concerns of the disenfranchised, for example, capitalism. You suggest capitalism = secularism/humanism. I provide counter-example. You dismiss counter-example and strenuously insist capitalism = secularism/humanism. So, once again I will suggest you are comparing apples to oranges. It has long been conventional belief (if perhaps not entirely true) that Protestantism fostered the development of capitalism. See Max Weber. Even if he overstates his case, it has been shown that early capitalism and western christianity flourished hand in hand. Another example is prosperity gospel here in the states. Here we have religion again well adapted to and even encouraging a capitalistic world view. To suggest capitalism is anathema to religion just flies in the face of the facts. Meanwhile, many humanists agonize over the capitalism and view it as fundamentally incompatible with social justice and humane society. Not all humanists as some point to capitalism's promotion of human creativity and ingenuity as a good thing, but it is a far cry to reach the conclusion that capitalism is either religious or secular in nature. It is neither. It is an economic system, not a religious system. You are comparing apples and oranges. So laying the blame for religious fundamentalism at the feet of humanists seems just as backward as you can get. Just quickly jumping to support your point that religion and capitalism are linked, aside for Weber, many others point out such link. For exemple, Hirschman makes a link between catholicism and capitalism in a very famous article named the passion and the interests. I think we're talking about two fundamentally different versions of religion here. ISIS religious extremism is about "other-worldliness", mysticism, moral zeal and so on. Weber's Protestantism is a handy tool for people to get out of the bed at six to plough the fields for 12 hours. Especially for Calvinists there is no this world/that world split, it's completely different.
That's fine. I don't think he is arguing for a fundamentalist christian revival though. He's arguing for more of Weber's protestantism. But it doesn't change the fact that you can address muslim youth disenfranchisement without adding in more religion. A humanist/secular world view doesn't preclude ameliorating the negative side effects of capitalism through social programs, economic redistribution and other "socialist" effort, OR ffs simply abandoning capitalism entirely (not that that would happen).
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On November 18 2015 06:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:12 oBlade wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. ...It's a little early for you to know the credibility of these threats and what's happening there. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. There will never be something as vague and absurd as a "war against Muslims." To the extent that ISIS would like there to be more fighting against Islamic extremism (that they've already begun), it doesn't bode too well for their self-preservation. Being in Korea you may not be aware of how far gone the American right is. Somewhere between 20 and 50% of Republicans think Islam should be outlawed in the US altogether. Not Sharia law, but the entire religion of Islam should be criminal according to these folks. Yes that would be unconstitutional and hypocritical but that's the reality here. It's a major reason why the language used is so important over here. The generalizations of Islam have a profound impact on the perceptions of low-information Americans and in effect promote the war on Islam you find to be vague and absurd.
Being an American citizen, I'm acutely aware of the need to use precise and honest language, especially after witnessing the proclivity of people on all sides to use the word war as a moniker for things that aren't wars.
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On November 18 2015 06:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:12 oBlade wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. ...It's a little early for you to know the credibility of these threats and what's happening there. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. There will never be something as vague and absurd as a "war against Muslims." To the extent that ISIS would like there to be more fighting against Islamic extremism (that they've already begun), it doesn't bode too well for their self-preservation. Being in Korea you may not be aware of how far gone the American right is. Somewhere between 20 and 50% of Republicans think Islam should be outlawed in the US altogether. Not Sharia law, but the entire religion of Islam should be criminal according to these folks. Yes that would be unconstitutional and hypocritical but that's the reality here. It's a major reason why the language used is so important over here. The generalizations of Islam have a profound impact on the perceptions of low-information Americans and in effect promote the war on Islam you find to be vague and absurd.
That was a poll of 488 Republican primary voters in Iowa and another one of "a few hundred" primary voters in North Carolina. That's like saying taking a poll of 300 Democrat primary voters in New York and 500 in Minnesota is representative of the American Left.
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On November 18 2015 06:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:12 oBlade wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. ...It's a little early for you to know the credibility of these threats and what's happening there. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. There will never be something as vague and absurd as a "war against Muslims." To the extent that ISIS would like there to be more fighting against Islamic extremism (that they've already begun), it doesn't bode too well for their self-preservation. Being in Korea you may not be aware of how far gone the American right is. Somewhere between 20 and 50% of Republicans think Islam should be outlawed in the US altogether. Not Sharia law, but the entire religion of Islam should be criminal according to these folks. Yes that would be unconstitutional and hypocritical but that's the reality here. It's a major reason why the language used is so important over here. The generalizations of Islam have a profound impact on the perceptions of low-information Americans and in effect promote the war on Islam you find to be vague and absurd. That was a poll of 488 Republican primary voters in Iowa and another one of "a few hundred" primary voters in North Carolina. That's like saying taking a poll of 300 Democrat primary voters in New York and 500 in Minnesota is representative of the American Left.
How different do you really think the results would be if it was a national poll?
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On November 18 2015 06:40 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:12 oBlade wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. ...It's a little early for you to know the credibility of these threats and what's happening there. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. There will never be something as vague and absurd as a "war against Muslims." To the extent that ISIS would like there to be more fighting against Islamic extremism (that they've already begun), it doesn't bode too well for their self-preservation. Being in Korea you may not be aware of how far gone the American right is. Somewhere between 20 and 50% of Republicans think Islam should be outlawed in the US altogether. Not Sharia law, but the entire religion of Islam should be criminal according to these folks. Yes that would be unconstitutional and hypocritical but that's the reality here. It's a major reason why the language used is so important over here. The generalizations of Islam have a profound impact on the perceptions of low-information Americans and in effect promote the war on Islam you find to be vague and absurd. Being an American citizen, I'm acutely aware of the need to use precise and honest language, especially after witnessing the proclivity of people on all sides to use the word war as a moniker for things that aren't wars.
The usage or not usage of war cracks me up. I live in a country were, in the XIX th and XX th century, philosophers argued that the general strike was a war. Today we bomb a country, we have people with kalachnikov that comes to our capital and kill, but we're not at war.
It says more about our society inability to say some words rather than what is actually happening.
On November 18 2015 06:36 frazzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:23 Nyxisto wrote:On November 18 2015 06:18 WhiteDog wrote:On November 18 2015 06:10 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:38 Nyxisto wrote:On November 18 2015 05:26 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:12 Nyxisto wrote:
Well capitalism and secularism are actually pretty closely connected, can't really run a capitalist society without secularism, at least not a working one, pretty much all of these terrorist organisations are staunchly anti-capitalist, too. I'm also afraid candy crush doesn't cut it.
I think people are underestimating how naturally people are drawn to violence, most people aren't humanists. I think the most important reason why the US does not have this domestic radicalism problem to the degree France has is because Americans can simply join the army and kick ISIS in the butt. Wait, so capitalism is equated with secularism? Or is it communism? Or socialism? Wait, are all economic systems secular? You can't have it both ways. In the States in particular, capitalism is strongly linked to the "Protestant Work Ethic". I think it pointless to waste time equating secularism or religion with economic ideologies. But if you wish to address the disenfranchisement of sectors of the population, most commonly you are referring to economic isolation (not, for example, their right to vote or participate in the political process). If you are referring to their economic isolation, to unemployment and the lack of opportunity, then you should be looking at the economics at play and spend less time trying to blame humanism. I mean, it's a real red herring if there ever was one. I think the most important quality of religious extremism is the communitarian ideology along a certain core of values.It's appeal is that it spins the world into a narrative of good and evil, fighting and so on, all the stuff young men are very susceptible to. It's why everybody loves violent games and movies instead of filling out the tax form. Just look at how ISIS propaganda works, they're selling it as an "adventure". In that sense communism has a lot in common with religious movements and in contrast the "Protestant work ethic" isn't actually very religious at all. Just removing poverty isn't going to cut it. The Western World needs to build some kind of society again that actually deserves the label with positive values and so on. OK. Let's sum up as we are drifting. Brook's writes column saying radicalism is caused by lack of religion and overabundant secularism. I mock his argument and dispute his characterization of secularism and its supposed lack of enervating principles. You say he is right, disenfranchised youths have no ideology worth embracing outside of radical fundamentalism. I say the values of humanism are fulfilling for me (and imply for many many others). Maybe rather than looking at secular vs religious, we should look to the economics to address the concerns of the disenfranchised, for example, capitalism. You suggest capitalism = secularism/humanism. I provide counter-example. You dismiss counter-example and strenuously insist capitalism = secularism/humanism. So, once again I will suggest you are comparing apples to oranges. It has long been conventional belief (if perhaps not entirely true) that Protestantism fostered the development of capitalism. See Max Weber. Even if he overstates his case, it has been shown that early capitalism and western christianity flourished hand in hand. Another example is prosperity gospel here in the states. Here we have religion again well adapted to and even encouraging a capitalistic world view. To suggest capitalism is anathema to religion just flies in the face of the facts. Meanwhile, many humanists agonize over the capitalism and view it as fundamentally incompatible with social justice and humane society. Not all humanists as some point to capitalism's promotion of human creativity and ingenuity as a good thing, but it is a far cry to reach the conclusion that capitalism is either religious or secular in nature. It is neither. It is an economic system, not a religious system. You are comparing apples and oranges. So laying the blame for religious fundamentalism at the feet of humanists seems just as backward as you can get. Just quickly jumping to support your point that religion and capitalism are linked, aside for Weber, many others point out such link. For exemple, Hirschman makes a link between catholicism and capitalism in a very famous article named the passion and the interests. I think we're talking about two fundamentally different versions of religion here. ISIS religious extremism is about "other-worldliness", mysticism, moral zeal and so on. Weber's Protestantism is a handy tool for people to get out of the bed at six to plough the fields for 12 hours. Especially for Calvinists there is no this world/that world split, it's completely different. That's fine. I don't think he is arguing for a fundamentalist christian revival though. He's arguing for more of Weber's protestantism. But it doesn't change the fact that you can address muslim youth disenfranchisement without adding in more religion. A humanist/secular world view doesn't preclude ameliorating the negative side effects of capitalism through social programs, economic redistribution and other "socialist" effort, OR ffs simply abandoning capitalism entirely (not that that would happen).
Not so long ago, defending democracy, the republic or equality were more fierce than any religious argument. We pacified everything that was dear to us, thinking we could unify the world under one set of values, we've put water in our wine.
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On November 18 2015 06:18 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:10 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:38 Nyxisto wrote:On November 18 2015 05:26 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:12 Nyxisto wrote:
Well capitalism and secularism are actually pretty closely connected, can't really run a capitalist society without secularism, at least not a working one, pretty much all of these terrorist organisations are staunchly anti-capitalist, too. I'm also afraid candy crush doesn't cut it.
I think people are underestimating how naturally people are drawn to violence, most people aren't humanists. I think the most important reason why the US does not have this domestic radicalism problem to the degree France has is because Americans can simply join the army and kick ISIS in the butt. Wait, so capitalism is equated with secularism? Or is it communism? Or socialism? Wait, are all economic systems secular? You can't have it both ways. In the States in particular, capitalism is strongly linked to the "Protestant Work Ethic". I think it pointless to waste time equating secularism or religion with economic ideologies. But if you wish to address the disenfranchisement of sectors of the population, most commonly you are referring to economic isolation (not, for example, their right to vote or participate in the political process). If you are referring to their economic isolation, to unemployment and the lack of opportunity, then you should be looking at the economics at play and spend less time trying to blame humanism. I mean, it's a real red herring if there ever was one. I think the most important quality of religious extremism is the communitarian ideology along a certain core of values.It's appeal is that it spins the world into a narrative of good and evil, fighting and so on, all the stuff young men are very susceptible to. It's why everybody loves violent games and movies instead of filling out the tax form. Just look at how ISIS propaganda works, they're selling it as an "adventure". In that sense communism has a lot in common with religious movements and in contrast the "Protestant work ethic" isn't actually very religious at all. Just removing poverty isn't going to cut it. The Western World needs to build some kind of society again that actually deserves the label with positive values and so on. OK. Let's sum up as we are drifting. Brook's writes column saying radicalism is caused by lack of religion and overabundant secularism. I mock his argument and dispute his characterization of secularism and its supposed lack of enervating principles. You say he is right, disenfranchised youths have no ideology worth embracing outside of radical fundamentalism. I say the values of humanism are fulfilling for me (and imply for many many others). Maybe rather than looking at secular vs religious, we should look to the economics to address the concerns of the disenfranchised, for example, capitalism. You suggest capitalism = secularism/humanism. I provide counter-example. You dismiss counter-example and strenuously insist capitalism = secularism/humanism. So, once again I will suggest you are comparing apples to oranges. It has long been conventional belief (if perhaps not entirely true) that Protestantism fostered the development of capitalism. See Max Weber. Even if he overstates his case, it has been shown that early capitalism and western christianity flourished hand in hand. Another example is prosperity gospel here in the states. Here we have religion again well adapted to and even encouraging a capitalistic world view. To suggest capitalism is anathema to religion just flies in the face of the facts. Meanwhile, many humanists agonize over the capitalism and view it as fundamentally incompatible with social justice and humane society. Not all humanists as some point to capitalism's promotion of human creativity and ingenuity as a good thing, but it is a far cry to reach the conclusion that capitalism is either religious or secular in nature. It is neither. It is an economic system, not a religious system. You are comparing apples and oranges. So laying the blame for religious fundamentalism at the feet of humanists seems just as backward as you can get. Just quickly jumping to support your point that religion and capitalism are linked, aside for Weber, many others point out such link. For exemple, Hirschman makes a link between catholicism and capitalism in a very famous article named the passion and the interests.
Aren't pretty much everything and capitalism linked?
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EPT
