EPTShootings and Casualties in Central Paris - Page 78
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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. | ||
zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 18 2015 02:19 oneofthem wrote: was trying to pick out a key feature that a mass revolutionary ideology adopts to transform from an intellectual analysis to mass appeal hysteria. reification of the enemy from a 'natural' feature to a conscious, conspiratorial personified group. The communist or socialist movement predated the development of "commi propaganda" and the conceptualization. Theory comes not as a motivation to action but as a justification ex post. It is the same for islam : reality comes before theory, and it is not by fighting theory (by developping an "enlighted islam" like some want to for exemple) that we will find a solution, but in fighting the real reasons for those actions. Let's say it another way : islamist don't radicalize due to the power of the extremist discourse, but due to their reality and their need to find a rule of behavior, a meaning, to give sense to that reality and find their place in it. The islamist propaganda fill a whole that the society created, but that would be filled by something else anyway. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
this discussion was a branch of an answer to the question of, what is the source of islamic terrorism, economic underdevelopment or rich intellectuals. my answer is that the latter radicalized first and with some state actors involvement they can radicalize the former pretty easily. | ||
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/opinion/finding-peace-within-the-holy-texts.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region | ||
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On November 18 2015 04:01 RuiBarbO wrote: Interesting Op Ed by David Brooks, in which he interrogates the argument that religion necessarily leads to extremism: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/opinion/finding-peace-within-the-holy-texts.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region Hard to keep reading past this line: "The secular substitutes for religion — nationalism, racism and political ideology — have all led to disaster." Like any of those three aren't also connected to religion. And what about Humanism and the Enlightenment? Are those failures? SMH David Brooks. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On November 18 2015 04:37 Nyxisto wrote: Nah it's actually pretty accurate. You need to summon Moltke and he'll write you a lengthy post about the meaningless of contemporary secular life. The fact that the western world is unable to give especially the disenfrachised youth a convincing purpose in life is a pretty strong reason why so many kids run over to organisations like ISIS. I'd love to hear it. But I have no trouble finding meaning and fulfillment without religion. Why isn't the burden for disenfranchisement placed on unconstrained capitalism? I mean, it is a typical Brooks argument, "Maybe the reason we have too much of x is because, wait for iiiitt... we don't have enough x. Huh?" Mind = Blown O_o | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
I think people are underestimating how naturally people are drawn to violence, most people aren't humanists. I think the most important reason why the US does not have this domestic radicalism problem to the degree France has is because Americans can simply join the army and kick ISIS in the butt. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
especially for arabic speaking social media the impression i have is that it's a sea of trash with very weak moderate muslim voices that are all western based anyway. stabilization for occupied territory takes money to the populace, or whatever stable hierarchy there exists, and propaganda. same formula for european muslim teens should work. yea, it looks totally totalitarian, but democracies can learn a few new tricks too. | ||
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On November 18 2015 05:12 Nyxisto wrote: Well capitalism and secularism are actually pretty closely connected, can't really run a capitalist society without secularism, at least not a working one, pretty much all of these terrorist organisations are staunchly anti-capitalist, too. I'm also afraid candy crush doesn't cut it. I think people are underestimating how naturally people are drawn to violence, most people aren't humanists. I think the most important reason why the US does not have this domestic radicalism problem to the degree France has is because Americans can simply join the army and kick ISIS in the butt. Wait, so capitalism is equated with secularism? Or is it communism? Or socialism? Wait, are all economic systems secular? You can't have it both ways. In the States in particular, capitalism is strongly linked to the "Protestant Work Ethic". I think it pointless to waste time equating secularism or religion with economic ideologies. But if you wish to address the disenfranchisement of sectors of the population, most commonly you are referring to economic isolation (not, for example, their right to vote or participate in the political process). If you are referring to their economic isolation, to unemployment and the lack of opportunity, then you should be looking at the economics at play and spend less time trying to blame humanism. I mean, it's a real red herring if there ever was one. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
https://twitter.com/dw_sports/status/666711255432957953 Edit: -_- Stealthblue... 24 seconds, really? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On November 18 2015 05:26 frazzle wrote: Wait, so capitalism is equated with secularism? Or is it communism? Or socialism? Wait, are all economic systems secular? You can't have it both ways. In the States in particular, capitalism is strongly linked to the "Protestant Work Ethic". I think it pointless to waste time equating secularism or religion with economic ideologies. But if you wish to address the disenfranchisement of sectors of the population, most commonly you are referring to economic isolation (not, for example, their right to vote or participate in the political process). If you are referring to their economic isolation, to unemployment and the lack of opportunity, then you should be looking at the economics at play and spend less time trying to blame humanism. I mean, it's a real red herring if there ever was one. I think the most important quality of religious extremism is the communitarian ideology along a certain core of values.It's appeal is that it spins the world into a narrative of good and evil, fighting and so on, all the stuff young men are very susceptible to. It's why everybody loves violent games and movies instead of filling out the tax form. Just look at how ISIS propaganda works, they're selling it as an "adventure". In that sense communism has a lot in common with religious movements and in contrast the "Protestant work ethic" isn't actually very religious at all. Just removing poverty isn't going to cut it. The Western World needs to build some kind of society again that actually deserves the label with positive values and so on. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3474 Posts
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