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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 17 2015 13:31 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 13:24 cLutZ wrote:
Saying they are factors is not what they did, because those are the factors they mentioned. The primary factor, is the beliefs of the radicalizers (typically a highly educated, Upper-middle-class or upper-class Muslim) Where is this coming from ?
It's probably from this article. It was posted in this thread, but I forgot on which page.
Here's an excerpt:
"Analysing jihadists of a decade ago, Marc Sageman similarly challenged the idea that ‘terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing – the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic.’ His database suggested, to the contrary, that terrorists are among the ‘best and brightest’ from ‘caring, middle class families’ who ‘can speak, four, five, six languages’, and ‘three-quarters of whom were ‘professionals or semi-professionals’, ‘engineers, architects… scientists.’"
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Hello all,
I came to give my love to you guys in the wake of such murderous events. I am rooting for those suffering from wounds to heal quickly and for those suffering emotionally to spend the self time needed to heal. Remember, post traumatic stress can happen both directly and indirectly. Please take care of yourselves. If you need a hand, reach out they are there.
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As an American tax payer, I helped fund the war in Iraq, I help fund the drones that have plagued the world. With torturous prisons and misguided muntions we created the cold heart that beats inside the Islamic State killing machine. They drive our trucks. They use our guns...
If I could stop my rogue-state, I would. I love my countrymen, but fuck the underhanded dogs who run this show.
I hope the French don't fall into the same patriotic stupor we did after 9/11.
(76 pages and no admin has edited the first post to say if we lost any members of our community? Please fix.)
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On November 17 2015 16:46 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 16:31 Yuljan wrote:On November 17 2015 16:26 seom wrote:
Blaming terrorist attacks on religion is like getting hit by a car and blaming it on the gasoline used in the gas tank. Blaming religion is the first refuge of the naive and misinformed. Terrible analogy day today. How about a country were all cars are electric and a company decides to import gasoline cars. The gasoline cars crash more often. Making generalized statements about the intelligence of other people without any arguments is the first refuge of the simple minded who still want to sound smart. Not that I find his analogy particularly appealing, but your "how about" was pretty terrible to. Maybe it was just the result of trying to be clever with a terrible analogy. Also some racist undertones there with gas cars crashing more often, not particularly scandalous but you leave yourself open to the accusation from the PC crowd. Especially considering electric cars crash way more if not as much atleast in North America. We just dont call them crashes, we call them malfunctions. Edit: Unless you were mocking the analogy, in which case, my bad.
I was indeed mocking the analogy just the other way around though. Idc about the pc crowd since I openly admit that I would strongly prefer that islam gets forbidden or heavily restricted in my country (Germany). I spent too much time growing up in a mostly muslim neighbourhood and by talking to my "friends" and spending some time living in a muslim country, I think the dangers far outweigh the good these immigrants bring. But hey lets shut up and be quiet since otherwise I will be critized by the rich kids holding up refugees welcome signs.
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On November 17 2015 17:44 craz3d wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 13:31 Rebs wrote:On November 17 2015 13:24 cLutZ wrote:
Saying they are factors is not what they did, because those are the factors they mentioned. The primary factor, is the beliefs of the radicalizers (typically a highly educated, Upper-middle-class or upper-class Muslim) Where is this coming from ? It's probably from this article. It was posted in this thread, but I forgot on which page. Here's an excerpt: "Analysing jihadists of a decade ago, Marc Sageman similarly challenged the idea that ‘terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing – the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic.’ His database suggested, to the contrary, that terrorists are among the ‘best and brightest’ from ‘caring, middle class families’ who ‘can speak, four, five, six languages’, and ‘three-quarters of whom were ‘professionals or semi-professionals’, ‘engineers, architects… scientists.’"
Oh thats the European Jihadists, yeah sure maybe. But thats not exactly the main body of their forces.
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On November 17 2015 18:04 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 17:44 craz3d wrote:On November 17 2015 13:31 Rebs wrote:On November 17 2015 13:24 cLutZ wrote:
Saying they are factors is not what they did, because those are the factors they mentioned. The primary factor, is the beliefs of the radicalizers (typically a highly educated, Upper-middle-class or upper-class Muslim) Where is this coming from ? It's probably from this article. It was posted in this thread, but I forgot on which page. Here's an excerpt: "Analysing jihadists of a decade ago, Marc Sageman similarly challenged the idea that ‘terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing – the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic.’ His database suggested, to the contrary, that terrorists are among the ‘best and brightest’ from ‘caring, middle class families’ who ‘can speak, four, five, six languages’, and ‘three-quarters of whom were ‘professionals or semi-professionals’, ‘engineers, architects… scientists.’" Oh thats the European Jihadists, yeah sure maybe. But thats not exactly the main body of their forces.
All examples that have been exposed in France are far from educated people (out of school people, people going from jail to extremism etc.). And 10 years is fucking long in the real world you know.
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On November 17 2015 00:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2015 18:31 CptMarvel wrote:On November 16 2015 18:19 Rebs wrote:On November 16 2015 18:17 CptMarvel wrote:On November 16 2015 02:39 VelJa wrote:
I just want to say this here
I'm sad, but I'm not dead.
For the second time in 2015, we face terror.
I'm afraid, I'm not weak, I will live more & more my life because my ancester works for this : Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. Ought to calm down with quoting the french revolution, aka the most wrongly praised and grossly misunderstood of all time. Hey, sacking jails and palaces while slicing of heads, iz all for liberty and democracy bro.. Haha. Hiding behind democracy and liberty indeed, while really serving the everygrowing interests of the freshly born middle-class. A very symptomatic event that was a starting-block for (even darker) times to come. Same as singing La Marseillaise and putting a french flag filter over your facebook photo : not the best of choices in response to such events. However, because everyone's so desperate for a way to cope with grief, I'll let it go. It's fashionable and everything to be cynical and cleverer than the sheep crowd by not buying the official discourse, but maybe you should realize that for all its failures, the French Revolution planted the seeds of countless emancipatory movements, and indeed, the actual French democracy. Western liberal democracy owes a huge amount to the Revolution. A flag can symbolize many things. It can symbolize nationalism and biggotry, aggressivity, and mindless patriotism. It can also represent a wounded nation that has a lot to offer to the world: a hedonist lifestyle, a uniquely secular society, a enormous lot of extraordinary artists and thinkers and values of enlightment that have shaped the rest of the world. It's that France that is represented by our flags, because it's that France that has been targeted. It's not a Front National convention those guys have chosen to attack. It's our terrasses, our concert halls, our stadiums. My flag is not MLP's flag, and it is not nationalist, aggressive or exclusive. Young, urban, progressive people, enjoying life and what Paris has to offer. But again, cynicism is fashionable and it's so cool to be critical when for once people are united behind something obvious.
Fashionable?
That's basic history and, frankly, just common sense. Not to mention it's also what highschool books actually teach these days..
The french flag was almost litteraly born in a puddle of blood, it's not and has never been the best of symbols. Just like hashtagging PrayForParis is plain ridiculous after such religion-based terrorist attacks.
At a time where everything pushes you towards thoughtless emotions, using your head is the strongest of weapons
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On November 17 2015 18:11 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 18:04 Rebs wrote:On November 17 2015 17:44 craz3d wrote:On November 17 2015 13:31 Rebs wrote:On November 17 2015 13:24 cLutZ wrote:
Saying they are factors is not what they did, because those are the factors they mentioned. The primary factor, is the beliefs of the radicalizers (typically a highly educated, Upper-middle-class or upper-class Muslim) Where is this coming from ? It's probably from this article. It was posted in this thread, but I forgot on which page. Here's an excerpt: "Analysing jihadists of a decade ago, Marc Sageman similarly challenged the idea that ‘terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing – the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic.’ His database suggested, to the contrary, that terrorists are among the ‘best and brightest’ from ‘caring, middle class families’ who ‘can speak, four, five, six languages’, and ‘three-quarters of whom were ‘professionals or semi-professionals’, ‘engineers, architects… scientists.’" Oh thats the European Jihadists, yeah sure maybe. But thats not exactly the main body of their forces. All examples that have been exposed in France are far from educated people (out of school people, people going from jail to extremism etc.). And 10 years is fucking long in the real world you know.
The people stupid enough to go blow themselves up are less educated, but the ones in the shadows pulling the strings are far from stupid. Not just anyone can organize terror cells right under the police state we are all living in.
Finding people willing to kill themselves is the easy part. But making the bombs, getting the guns, making sure all your careful planning doesn't go to waste because some hillbilly pawn is too stupid to keep their mouth shut is the hard part, its way above the pay grade of some ghetto kid who only has a primary education.
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On November 17 2015 14:11 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 14:10 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 17 2015 05:09 Elizar wrote:On November 17 2015 04:53 Plansix wrote:On November 17 2015 04:51 RuiBarbO wrote:
So anti-refugee movements in Europe in the U.S. get stronger in the wake of that thing this thread is supposed to be about. My question: is denying entry to all refugees really going to guarantee long-term security, or might it foster increased anti-Western sentiment of the sort from which ISIS draws strength? The second part. It won't guarantee anything. The nations can work security for refugees coming in, but denying all of them is pretty much exactly what ISIS wants. The refugees are fleeing ISIS. While I do wish to completely agree with you, there was one argument that made me thinking: Very often terrorists who act in western countries are recruited from locals. (See the bombings in Paris.) Those are people who hardly have real chances in life, being unemployed or have very little access to education. Normally, these are not the refugees right now that try to reach europe at the moment, but the second or third generations of immigrants. That said, there is the sad truth that closing the borders, as bad as this sounds, might limit these problems as less migrants means less future second or third generation immigrants who might be susceptible to recruition by extremists. I conclude the need for proper integration is now greather than ever. We Europeans need to do that better than in the past. immigrants do a wonderful job integrating into the wellfare system. You mean by contributing more to government finances than they take out? Because that's the reality of immigration in Europe, despite what right-wing myths say.
Immigration at large? Yes. But generalizing like that only obfuscates the real picture. Immigrants come from different backgrounds. People from one country may contribute way more than they receive in form of welfare, whereas people from another country may be welfare parasites. Benefits associated with the former source of immigration do not automatically justify accepting the latter source of immigration, which is what you are implying.
Here are the statistics for the Netherlands (those for the UK or Scandinavia look similar; unfortunately I don't have the time to look them up again). You can notice the reliance on welfare of people of some nationalities is extremely high.
http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2015/zeven-van-de-tien-somaliers-in-de-bijstand.htm
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On November 17 2015 18:32 CptMarvel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 00:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 16 2015 18:31 CptMarvel wrote:On November 16 2015 18:19 Rebs wrote:On November 16 2015 18:17 CptMarvel wrote:On November 16 2015 02:39 VelJa wrote:
I just want to say this here
I'm sad, but I'm not dead.
For the second time in 2015, we face terror.
I'm afraid, I'm not weak, I will live more & more my life because my ancester works for this : Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. Ought to calm down with quoting the french revolution, aka the most wrongly praised and grossly misunderstood of all time. Hey, sacking jails and palaces while slicing of heads, iz all for liberty and democracy bro.. Haha. Hiding behind democracy and liberty indeed, while really serving the everygrowing interests of the freshly born middle-class. A very symptomatic event that was a starting-block for (even darker) times to come. Same as singing La Marseillaise and putting a french flag filter over your facebook photo : not the best of choices in response to such events. However, because everyone's so desperate for a way to cope with grief, I'll let it go. It's fashionable and everything to be cynical and cleverer than the sheep crowd by not buying the official discourse, but maybe you should realize that for all its failures, the French Revolution planted the seeds of countless emancipatory movements, and indeed, the actual French democracy. Western liberal democracy owes a huge amount to the Revolution. A flag can symbolize many things. It can symbolize nationalism and biggotry, aggressivity, and mindless patriotism. It can also represent a wounded nation that has a lot to offer to the world: a hedonist lifestyle, a uniquely secular society, a enormous lot of extraordinary artists and thinkers and values of enlightment that have shaped the rest of the world. It's that France that is represented by our flags, because it's that France that has been targeted. It's not a Front National convention those guys have chosen to attack. It's our terrasses, our concert halls, our stadiums. My flag is not MLP's flag, and it is not nationalist, aggressive or exclusive. Young, urban, progressive people, enjoying life and what Paris has to offer. But again, cynicism is fashionable and it's so cool to be critical when for once people are united behind something obvious. Fashionable? That's basic history and, frankly, just common sense. Not to mention it's also what highschool books actually teach these days.. The french flag was almost litteraly born in a puddle of blood, it's not and has never been the best of symbols. Just like hashtagging PrayForParis is plain ridiculous after such religion-based terrorist attacks. At a time where everything pushes you towards thoughtless emotions, using your head is the strongest of weapons
So much hipsterism in one post. Good try judging the history of France, the symbolism of the tricolor or of the marseillaise (or the state of the world) with the glasses of a young privileged kiddo. Do you even know what the white, the blue and the red represent in the flag ? lol
And the critic of the hashtag pray for paris si so dumb I don't know where to start with : certain religious words have been secularised and that's quite a huge simplification to believe that, because some tard islamist murder people in Paris, it means people that pray - whatever their religion - should feel somewhat responsible and prevent theirselves from praying for the victims. The mosque of paris invite people (not only muslim) to come tomorrow to pray and reaffirm the desire to defend the republic and its value, should they prevent themselves from doing it ?
Using your head is understanding the complexity of the world, and not reacting like a virgin to everything that happen before your eyes.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
in order to indulge in the complex conspiratorial worldviews and be thus motivated, it takes thinking people sure. especially when there were no america the great satan type material floating online, and they had to create the whole ideology. but that is the early phase of a movement.
with the infrastructure established by the vanguards, they need only to spread some memes and rumours to gain wider appeal.
look at how commies started. the personification of enemy into a 'class' is the sort of move an islamist pulls on a concept like 'western culture.'
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On November 17 2015 21:32 oneofthem wrote:
in order to indulge in the complex conspiratorial worldviews and be thus motivated, it takes thinking people sure. especially when there were no america the great satan type material floating online, and they had to create the whole ideology. but that is the early phase of a movement.
with the infrastructure established by the vanguards, they need only to spread some memes and rumours to gain wider appeal.
look at how commies started. the personification of enemy into a 'class' is the sort of move an islamist pulls on a concept like 'western culture.'
Communist worked not for his theory but for its adaptation to practice and practical matter - it actually started to disappeared when it became more of a theory than a rule of practice. The concept of class is not what created the enemy, it just gave a conceptual body to a reality that long predated the usage of the concept, and long before the use of the term class or even the dominance of the communist movement in the working class there were already movement and political action against the dominant class.
You don't understand much if you put every motivations for any actions in the theory and the ideology that sustain the acts, and not in the reality of the world, in the situations themselves, that leads people to find rules and meanings in an ideology.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
rebs you are posting stunningly misinformed marrative qbout pakistan, for whatever reason. sure, there is a non islamist section but the isi was zia's baby and he was a true believer islamist who basically built the islamic taliban in his image.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 17 2015 21:42 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 21:32 oneofthem wrote:
in order to indulge in the complex conspiratorial worldviews and be thus motivated, it takes thinking people sure. especially when there were no america the great satan type material floating online, and they had to create the whole ideology. but that is the early phase of a movement.
with the infrastructure established by the vanguards, they need only to spread some memes and rumours to gain wider appeal.
look at how commies started. the personification of enemy into a 'class' is the sort of move an islamist pulls on a concept like 'western culture.' Communist worked not for his theory but for its adaptation to practice and practical matter - it actually started to disappeared when it became more of a theory than a rule of practice. The concept of class is not what created the enemy, it just gave a conceptual body to a reality that long predated the usage of the concept, and long before the use of the term class or even the dominance of the communist movement in the working class there were already movement and political action against the dominant class. You don't understand much if you put every motivations for any actions in the theory and the ideology that sustain the acts, and not in the reality of the world, in the situations themselves, that leads people to find rules and meanings in an ideology.
the class enemy is, in commie propaganda, a conscious, conspiratorial minded group. this is the level at which comparison was made.
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On November 17 2015 21:49 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 21:42 WhiteDog wrote:On November 17 2015 21:32 oneofthem wrote:
in order to indulge in the complex conspiratorial worldviews and be thus motivated, it takes thinking people sure. especially when there were no america the great satan type material floating online, and they had to create the whole ideology. but that is the early phase of a movement.
with the infrastructure established by the vanguards, they need only to spread some memes and rumours to gain wider appeal.
look at how commies started. the personification of enemy into a 'class' is the sort of move an islamist pulls on a concept like 'western culture.' Communist worked not for his theory but for its adaptation to practice and practical matter - it actually started to disappeared when it became more of a theory than a rule of practice. The concept of class is not what created the enemy, it just gave a conceptual body to a reality that long predated the usage of the concept, and long before the use of the term class or even the dominance of the communist movement in the working class there were already movement and political action against the dominant class. You don't understand much if you put every motivations for any actions in the theory and the ideology that sustain the acts, and not in the reality of the world, in the situations themselves, that leads people to find rules and meanings in an ideology. the class enemy is, in commie propaganda, a conscious, conspiratorial minded group. this is the level at which comparison was made.
What do you mean by commie propaganda ? Because this is wrong even in Marx. Marx distinguish many classes in reality, and claim that class are not necessarily conscious. This is a huge simplification, as are most comparaison between communist, nazism and islamism.
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On November 17 2015 22:46 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 21:49 oneofthem wrote:On November 17 2015 21:42 WhiteDog wrote:On November 17 2015 21:32 oneofthem wrote:
in order to indulge in the complex conspiratorial worldviews and be thus motivated, it takes thinking people sure. especially when there were no america the great satan type material floating online, and they had to create the whole ideology. but that is the early phase of a movement.
with the infrastructure established by the vanguards, they need only to spread some memes and rumours to gain wider appeal.
look at how commies started. the personification of enemy into a 'class' is the sort of move an islamist pulls on a concept like 'western culture.' Communist worked not for his theory but for its adaptation to practice and practical matter - it actually started to disappeared when it became more of a theory than a rule of practice. The concept of class is not what created the enemy, it just gave a conceptual body to a reality that long predated the usage of the concept, and long before the use of the term class or even the dominance of the communist movement in the working class there were already movement and political action against the dominant class. You don't understand much if you put every motivations for any actions in the theory and the ideology that sustain the acts, and not in the reality of the world, in the situations themselves, that leads people to find rules and meanings in an ideology. the class enemy is, in commie propaganda, a conscious, conspiratorial minded group. this is the level at which comparison was made. What do you mean by commie propaganda ? Because this is wrong even in Marx. Marx distinguish many classes in reality, and claim that class are not necessarily conscious. This is a huge simplification, as are most comparaison between communist, nazism and islamism.
commie propaganda =/= marx texts
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
stasi/soviet propaganda material for instance. maoist stuff is even more delirious. china modernized the basic form by dropping capitalist but doubling down on the america.
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On November 17 2015 21:32 oneofthem wrote:
look at how commies started. the personification of enemy into a 'class' is the sort of move an islamist pulls on a concept like 'western culture.'
"Look at how the commies started"? WTF does that mean? LOL
Pretty much all sides of any conflict engage in propaganda that simplifies and demonizes. Most recently in the US that manifested itself in such phrases as "they hate us for our freedom". If you dispute any ham-fisted view of the situation and insist on nuance you get asked "why do you hate America?"
You don't need to go pointing to Marxist and Islamist agitators to find propaganda. Modern propaganda was born out of the Creel Commission in the effort to bring the US into WWI. What they did, and how news and information was manipulated during the war (I suggest reading Walter Lippmann's "Public Opinion" for specific first hand examples, an amazing read, apart from the crazy last chapters), was the inspiration for Goebbels and the Nazi propaganda that followed. Modern propaganda was born in the US and has always been practiced at the highest levels right here in the US.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
was trying to pick out a key feature that a mass revolutionary ideology adopts to transform from an intellectual analysis to mass appeal hysteria. reification of the enemy from a 'natural' feature to a conscious, conspiratorial personified group.
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On November 18 2015 02:19 oneofthem wrote:
was trying to pick out a key feature that a mass revolutionary ideology adopts to transform from an intellectual analysis to mass appeal hysteria. reification of the enemy from a 'natural' feature to a conscious, conspiratorial personified group.
It depends on the charisma and goals of the leaders. The classic case is Marx vs. Lenin, but you also could point to Locke vs. The American Founders. We have very little understanding of truely how effective revolutionary leaders in the Middle East are in this regard because of the culture and language gaps (for instance, Daesh, what done people call ISIS is actually just the acronym using the Arabic, and is somewhat insulting, or something like that according to piece in mother Jones I read recently).
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EPT
