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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 18 2015 06:54 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:18 WhiteDog wrote:On November 18 2015 06:10 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:38 Nyxisto wrote:On November 18 2015 05:26 frazzle wrote:On November 18 2015 05:12 Nyxisto wrote:
Well capitalism and secularism are actually pretty closely connected, can't really run a capitalist society without secularism, at least not a working one, pretty much all of these terrorist organisations are staunchly anti-capitalist, too. I'm also afraid candy crush doesn't cut it.
I think people are underestimating how naturally people are drawn to violence, most people aren't humanists. I think the most important reason why the US does not have this domestic radicalism problem to the degree France has is because Americans can simply join the army and kick ISIS in the butt. Wait, so capitalism is equated with secularism? Or is it communism? Or socialism? Wait, are all economic systems secular? You can't have it both ways. In the States in particular, capitalism is strongly linked to the "Protestant Work Ethic". I think it pointless to waste time equating secularism or religion with economic ideologies. But if you wish to address the disenfranchisement of sectors of the population, most commonly you are referring to economic isolation (not, for example, their right to vote or participate in the political process). If you are referring to their economic isolation, to unemployment and the lack of opportunity, then you should be looking at the economics at play and spend less time trying to blame humanism. I mean, it's a real red herring if there ever was one. I think the most important quality of religious extremism is the communitarian ideology along a certain core of values.It's appeal is that it spins the world into a narrative of good and evil, fighting and so on, all the stuff young men are very susceptible to. It's why everybody loves violent games and movies instead of filling out the tax form. Just look at how ISIS propaganda works, they're selling it as an "adventure". In that sense communism has a lot in common with religious movements and in contrast the "Protestant work ethic" isn't actually very religious at all. Just removing poverty isn't going to cut it. The Western World needs to build some kind of society again that actually deserves the label with positive values and so on. OK. Let's sum up as we are drifting. Brook's writes column saying radicalism is caused by lack of religion and overabundant secularism. I mock his argument and dispute his characterization of secularism and its supposed lack of enervating principles. You say he is right, disenfranchised youths have no ideology worth embracing outside of radical fundamentalism. I say the values of humanism are fulfilling for me (and imply for many many others). Maybe rather than looking at secular vs religious, we should look to the economics to address the concerns of the disenfranchised, for example, capitalism. You suggest capitalism = secularism/humanism. I provide counter-example. You dismiss counter-example and strenuously insist capitalism = secularism/humanism. So, once again I will suggest you are comparing apples to oranges. It has long been conventional belief (if perhaps not entirely true) that Protestantism fostered the development of capitalism. See Max Weber. Even if he overstates his case, it has been shown that early capitalism and western christianity flourished hand in hand. Another example is prosperity gospel here in the states. Here we have religion again well adapted to and even encouraging a capitalistic world view. To suggest capitalism is anathema to religion just flies in the face of the facts. Meanwhile, many humanists agonize over the capitalism and view it as fundamentally incompatible with social justice and humane society. Not all humanists as some point to capitalism's promotion of human creativity and ingenuity as a good thing, but it is a far cry to reach the conclusion that capitalism is either religious or secular in nature. It is neither. It is an economic system, not a religious system. You are comparing apples and oranges. So laying the blame for religious fundamentalism at the feet of humanists seems just as backward as you can get. Just quickly jumping to support your point that religion and capitalism are linked, aside for Weber, many others point out such link. For exemple, Hirschman makes a link between catholicism and capitalism in a very famous article named the passion and the interests. Aren't pretty much everything and capitalism linked?
Not really, see Clastres work on indian society for exemple. I really think Weber is a master in this regard : capitalism is heavily linked to occidentalism' rationality.
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On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 05:27 Ghanburighan wrote:
Related events in Hanover happening now:
Edit: -_- Stealthblue... 24 seconds, really? And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned.
While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source.
On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict.
Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... (EDIT: I should probably clarify that the previous sentence is completely tongue-in-cheek). Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam.
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On November 18 2015 05:22 oneofthem wrote:
the big deficiency for the liberal democracies vs either totalitarian states or stuff like ISIS is our lack of positive forms of informational and ideological propaganda. yes, i know we have some but they pale in volume and pitch.
especially for arabic speaking social media the impression i have is that it's a sea of trash with very weak moderate muslim voices that are all western based anyway.
stabilization for occupied territory takes money to the populace, or whatever stable hierarchy there exists, and propaganda. same formula for european muslim teens should work. yea, it looks totally totalitarian, but democracies can learn a few new tricks too.
It doesn't have to be propaganda though. Right now the government's speech in france for "muslims" teens (more accuractely teens living in some suburbs, doesn't matter if they're muslim or not, most just happen to be) is roughly : we tried dealing with you for years with cops and aggressive laws and language, we're just trying to contain as best as we can now, gl hf.
So yeah, great pool to pick future terrorists from, all you have to do is twist occidental culture into the enemy, create some cohesion and a common goal, and these kids will follow, because it's really hard to have a positive look on life in france for them at this point, and at least with terrorism they think they will accomplish something meaningful.
Same for eastern countries, just on a larger scale I guess, as for them seeing the country currently bombing them as the enemy is easier.
I, and some others, believe that the solution will come from collectively trying to solve these issues, giving ourselves the tools and means to do so, hopefully giving back to everyone, including muslim teens, something meaningful to do, which is actually building tomorrow's world. We'll see I guess !
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On November 18 2015 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned. While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source. Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam.
Selon le Ministre de l'Intérieur de Basse-Saxe, contrairement à ce qui a été annoncé par certains médias locaux, il n'y a eu aucune arrestation et aucun explosif n'a été découvert après l'annulation du match Allemagne-Pays-Bas qui devait se disputer ce soir à Hanovre.
Minister of basse-saxe said that contrary to what was told by local media, there was no arrestation and nno explosives has beenn found after the cancellation of the Germany/Netherlland football match that should havee been at Hanovre tonight.
http://www.liberation.fr/direct/
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On November 17 2015 21:48 oneofthem wrote:
rebs you are posting stunningly misinformed marrative qbout pakistan, for whatever reason. sure, there is a non islamist section but the isi was zia's baby and he was a true believer islamist who basically built the islamic taliban in his image.
The fuck are you talking about, whats wrong with the narrative Im offering. I think I find myself slightly better qualifed in this case atleast, I have no particular love for my countries policies, they have been pretty trash for ever. I already mentioned that.
Sure Zia was Islamist, we are still trying to live that down, but the country stopped following those policy's at large as soon as he was dead, we finally got to breath when the motherfucker died. Some of them like that Blasphemy shit we cant get rid off, but the people at large are fed up of them. You have to appreciate that it takes time for democratic forces and secularism to wise up against 10 years of imposed islamism and then 20-30 odd of Wahabist/Salafist maddrassa shit funded all over the country with no one able to stop it because how else are you going to feed these people ? It didnt seem like enough of a problem and it really wasnt one till 9/11 anyway.
That he built the taliban in his image is a very vague statement that has no real proof or evidence but ok lets give you that. What difference does that make ? That doesnt mean Pakistan has been following an active policy of islamizing.
What part of my narrative are you trying to refute exactly? That Zia and the ISI created the Taliban? Sure they were heavily involved, they figured they would use them to run Afghanistan. It was a disaster, they tried to the same imperialistic the super power lot has been trying for decades and learnt the hard way aswell.
Its more that we havent been able to curb what he set forth, mostly because the ISI wanted to use them to fuck with India and Saudi money was needed to do that, we dont really have any of our own. What does the ISI an intelligence agency have to do with the general policy of a country ?
Does that mean that all countries are following general policies that their intelligence agencies follow ? Or that the idea of vile, morally bankrupt dictators are representative of a people ?
Thats a pretty moronic line of argument. The situtation is way more complex, the ISI has a heavy role in what kind of policy's are followed, it is the army after all and the army runs the show as it is, democratic govt or not. But saying that we are actively Islamizing our country is a pretty misinformed opinion because there is no evidence to suggest that anymore than there is evidence to suggest the US and friends have been doing it. If thats an Islamization policy, sorry bro everyones doing it.
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On November 18 2015 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned. While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source. Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam.
Some are, though the right in many countries barely make the rhetorical distinction let alone a real distinction. The German politician wanting more fences to control the refugees comes to mind, or the ones saying they look less like refugees and more like an army.
Not to mention people around the world claiming ISIS represents "real" Islam. The right is playing right into ISIS's hands whether they like it or not.
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On November 18 2015 07:28 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned. While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam. Selon le Ministre de l'Intérieur de Basse-Saxe, contrairement à ce qui a été annoncé par certains médias locaux, il n'y a eu aucune arrestation et aucun explosif n'a été découvert après l'annulation du match Allemagne-Pays-Bas qui devait se disputer ce soir à Hanovre. Minister of basse-saxe said that contrary to what was told by local media, there was no arrestation and nno explosives has beenn found after the cancellation of the Germany/Netherlland football match that should havee been at Hanovre tonight. http://www.liberation.fr/direct/
That doesn't change the fact that the threat might have been real and credible. You have to consider that the match was canceled by the police based on what they must have considered credible sources and not some random citizen crying "bomb" over an unattended bag...
On November 18 2015 07:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned. While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam. Some are, though the right in many countries barely make the rhetorical distinction let alone a real distinction. The German politician wanting more fences to control the refugees comes to mind, or the ones saying they look less like refugees and more like an army. Not to mention people around the world claiming ISIS represents "real" Islam. The right is playing right into ISIS's hands whether they like it or not.
You are grossly conflating issues and paraphrasing out of context.
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You are grossly conflating issues and paraphrasing out of context.
How so?
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On November 18 2015 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:How so?
Is the US currently having a "war on Mexico" as the US not only has strict limits on immigration but also has a fence at it's border?
EDIT: I hope it is obvious, but both the fence-comment you paraphrased and the "looks like an army" comment was concerning the current unregulated immigration to EU from Africa/ME (only 1/3-1/2 of the refugees are actually from Syria and not fleeing for economic reasons). You using them as examples of a "war on Islam" is disingenuous.
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On November 18 2015 08:14 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:You are grossly conflating issues and paraphrasing out of context. How so? Is the US currently having a "war on Mexico" as the US not only has strict limits on immigration but also has a fence at it's border?
The points I was making were about the lack of distinguishing ISIS from Muslims not about whether it made it a "war" or not.
I said the right was playing into the "War with Islam" narrative not that we were already having it. I can understand the confusion, but you misinterpreted what was being said.
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On November 18 2015 08:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 08:14 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:You are grossly conflating issues and paraphrasing out of context. How so? Is the US currently having a "war on Mexico" as the US not only has strict limits on immigration but also has a fence at it's border? The points I was making were about the lack of distinguishing ISIS from Muslims not about whether it made it a "war" or not. I said the right was playing into the "War with Islam" narrative not that we were already having it. I can understand the confusion, but you misinterpreted what was being said.
The point I was making was that neither of the things you paraphrased were examples of a lack of distinguishing between Muslims and ISIS. I did not misinterpret you.
EDIT: That is unless you are going to claim the bold did not refer back to the italicized in which case I'm fine with "misinterpreting" you, but then the responsibility falls squarely on your shoulders.
On November 18 2015 07:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 06:34 maartendq wrote:On November 18 2015 06:25 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. didnt they find a fake ambulance rigged with a massive amount of explosives right next to the stadium? think before you post plz. Nobody wanted to bow down to the terrorists and cancel the game... Can't find that on quality newspaper websites. stop reading the gutter press plz. They will just post whatever gets them the most clicks, objectivity and reason be damned. While I agree that Bild isn't exactly a quality newspaper, you probably shouldn't talk about objectivity as you have zero clue about the validity of the threats as the police have refused to divulge who are their sources - and I doubt Volker Kluwe the head of the police would state they "had concrete indications" without at least a somewhat reliable source. On November 18 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 06:08 maartendq wrote:And paranoia has successfully gripped Europe (conveniently helped along by the gutter press, as per usual). Now every bag that is left unattended for even 5 seconds will garner mass panic and bomb alarms. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: willing to sacrifice bit by our (hard fought) freedoms for not even a smidgen of extra safety. We are basically allowing them to indirectly control how we live our lives. I'll repeat that: we are allowing vermin to control how we live our lives. Seriously, it's like people are totally clueless about what their objectives are. They are trying to spark a war against Muslims and people on the right around the world are playing right into it, it only makes sense from the prospective of feeding the military industrial complex by being in perpetual conflict. Seeing as you are from the US you are probably unaware about the state of things around the world... Outside of the US people are talking about fighting the extremists parts of Islam. Some are, though the right in many countries barely make the rhetorical distinction let alone a real distinction. The German politician wanting more fences to control the refugees comes to mind, or the ones saying they look less like refugees and more like an army.
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On November 18 2015 08:31 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 08:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 08:14 Ghostcom wrote:On November 18 2015 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:You are grossly conflating issues and paraphrasing out of context. How so? Is the US currently having a "war on Mexico" as the US not only has strict limits on immigration but also has a fence at it's border? The points I was making were about the lack of distinguishing ISIS from Muslims not about whether it made it a "war" or not. I said the right was playing into the "War with Islam" narrative not that we were already having it. I can understand the confusion, but you misinterpreted what was being said. The point I was making was that neither of the things you paraphrased were examples of a lack of distinguishing between Muslims and ISIS. I did not misinterpret you.
You using them as examples of a "war on Islam" is disingenuous.
lol ok. If you want to pretend that the right is appropriately distinguishing between ISIS and Muslim communities you're free to do that and I won't try to dissuade you from what I perceive as a clear delusion.
That you would say "You using them as examples of a "war on Islam" is disingenuous." and then directly follow it with
"The point I was making was that neither of the things you paraphrased were examples of a lack of distinguishing between Muslims and ISIS."
Makes perfect sense in this context.
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You really should learn how to handle people disagreeing with you without resorting to insults and how to substantiate your claims. Both are important if you want honest discussion.
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On November 18 2015 08:44 Ghostcom wrote:
You really should learn how to handle people disagreeing with you without resorting to insults and how to substantiate your claims. Both are important if you want honest discussion.
It wasn't intended to be an insult, it's an honest opinion of those who are under the impression that the right in various countries are appropriately distinguishing between ISIS and Muslims in general.
I'm not going to quibble over the particulars, if you don't like those examples, fine, but the important part is whether people recognize that the lack of distinguishing is counter-productive or not and whether it's being appropriately handled.
If you think it's being appropriately handled than I have no interest in attempting to lay out a case against that. I've learned my lesson about trying to explain isms and phobias to skeptics and I'd have better luck shoving my head through a brick wall, no matter how high the preponderance of evidence is stacked.
If you think it's not being appropriately handled then you would appear to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.
Point is that the "extreme" right (predominately in the US) is playing into ISIS's plan and refuses to acknowledge it.
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You should also learn to leave room for the possibility that you are wrong if you want an honest discussion. You really aren't doing that if you consider those who disagree with you to be delusional - no matter how honest of an opinion that is. The irony is pretty strong considering how much you usually preach about being blind to ones own bias.
Anyway, thank you for having made it painfully clear that you are not actually interest in an honest discussion. I'm going to bed.
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On November 18 2015 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 08:44 Ghostcom wrote:
You really should learn how to handle people disagreeing with you without resorting to insults and how to substantiate your claims. Both are important if you want honest discussion. It wasn't intended to be an insult, it's an honest opinion of those who are under the impression that the right in various countries are appropriately distinguishing between ISIS and Muslims in general. I'm not going to quibble over the particulars, if you don't like those examples, fine, but the important part is whether people recognize that the lack of distinguishing is counter-productive or not and whether it's being appropriately handled. If you think it's being appropriately handled than I have no interest in attempting to lay out a case against that. I've learned my lesson about trying to explain isms and phobias to skeptics and I'd have better luck shoving my head through a brick wall, no matter how high the preponderance of evidence is stacked. If you think it's not being appropriately handled then you would appear to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Point is that the "extreme" right (predominately in the US) is playing into ISIS's plan and refuses to acknowledge it.
You have zero insight into the plans of the Islamic State, just saying. And it is hypocritical to complain about the perceived lack of distinguishing between the Islamic State and the general muslim population and simultaneously speaking of "the right" as one coherent body.
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I think capitalism or whatever is not the real problem , the problem is that people think they can live their whole life in safety and if things dont go their way they become crazy , the west is in war with syria and the middle east for many years , its only natural that this war will finally come to our home , we should prepare our people for these events , its ignorant and dangerous to believe we can keep living the same way like nothing happened , its pretty clear this isnt working , civilians should be better equipped and more capable to fight back , they should get proper training because this war affect them too. We should invest more in equipment to reduce casualties and we should also finally understand that multicultural societies dunnot work , muslims should be expelled from europe. Europe has to do one thing and that is man up and fight , solving theories or trying to analyze how humanity should be will lead us nowhere.
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On November 18 2015 09:28 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2015 08:44 Ghostcom wrote:
You really should learn how to handle people disagreeing with you without resorting to insults and how to substantiate your claims. Both are important if you want honest discussion. It wasn't intended to be an insult, it's an honest opinion of those who are under the impression that the right in various countries are appropriately distinguishing between ISIS and Muslims in general. I'm not going to quibble over the particulars, if you don't like those examples, fine, but the important part is whether people recognize that the lack of distinguishing is counter-productive or not and whether it's being appropriately handled. If you think it's being appropriately handled than I have no interest in attempting to lay out a case against that. I've learned my lesson about trying to explain isms and phobias to skeptics and I'd have better luck shoving my head through a brick wall, no matter how high the preponderance of evidence is stacked. If you think it's not being appropriately handled then you would appear to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Point is that the "extreme" right (predominately in the US) is playing into ISIS's plan and refuses to acknowledge it. You have zero insight into the plans of the Islamic State, just saying. And it is hypocritical to complain about the perceived lack of distinguishing between the Islamic State and the general muslim population and simultaneously speaking of "the right" as one coherent body.
How do you figure I have 0 insight on the plans of ISIS? The goals are pretty clear. In no particular order:
1. Disrupt western nations (economically, security, civil liberties, etc...)
2. Gain regional power/influence
3. Make non-radical Muslims feel like the west doesn't just hate ISIS but Muslims in general
4. Convince them (NRM's) it's a choice between living on your knees or dying on your feet. (Bonus: Martyrdom has sweet perks)
5. Convince them the west will never accept them as brothers and sisters.
6. Convince them they must choose a side in the war against Islam.
It goes on and they all have their details but the MO and goals aren't especially new, ISIS has just placed a more blunt emphasis on horrific violence and destruction including against more Muslims as a means to those ends.
I think part of the problem is that westerners don't have a very good appreciation of how distasteful the accepted notion (in the west) that the west is superior to places like the ME is to those that actually live there or have cultural ties (regardless of the realities).
This may come as a shock to some folks but there are plenty of people in the ME and affiliated communities that in no way, shape, or form think "The West" has responsibly or reasonably used it's power and influence and think the world would be better if the ME had the world's most powerful nation within it (again regardless of the reality).
With those goals in mind it becomes pretty clear how despite our repeated decapitations of the heads of these groups and bombings and occupations much of our efforts have been better at achieving their (radicals) goals than ours.
When one realizes the west's "radicals" goal is to feed the military industrial complex and the police state one can see the symbiotic relationship between the two.
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On November 18 2015 09:28 Ghostcom wrote:
You should also learn to leave room for the possibility that you are wrong if you want an honest discussion. You really aren't doing that if you consider those who disagree with you to be delusional - no matter how honest of an opinion that is. The irony is pretty strong considering how much you usually preach about being blind to ones own bias.
Anyway, thank you for having made it painfully clear that you are not actually interest in an honest discussion. I'm going to bed.
I see, so instead of telling him why he should be wrong, you just tell him that he should be open to the idea that he is wrong without any suggestion as to why that might be the case.
I think the one being dishonest in this discussion isnt him, especially because not only did you not offer any concrete reasoning as to why he was wrong except that his examples were poor which he even conceded. He easily could have been hard nosed about and defended.
But since you picked literally the least useful part of the argument to counter you were kinda left with nothing and then pretended to occupy some moral high ground because "he was biased with his reasoning and you without any offering any real insight except "your wrong" are unbiased."
Hows that for an honest assesment ?
On November 18 2015 10:12 summoner503 wrote:
I think capitalism or whatever is not the real problem , the problem is that people think they can live their whole life in safety and if things dont go their way they become crazy , the west is in war with syria and the middle east for many years , its only natural that this war will finally come to our home , we should prepare our people for these events , its ignorant and dangerous to believe we can keep living the same way like nothing happened , its pretty clear this isnt working , civilians should be better equipped and more capable to fight back , they should get proper training because this war affect them too. We should invest more in equipment to reduce casualties and we should also finally understand that multicultural societies dunnot work , muslims should be expelled from europe. Europe has to do one thing and that is man up and fight , solving theories or trying to analyze how humanity should be will lead us nowhere.
This guys ready for world war 3. I expect you to be the first in line for conscription if that happens, infact nevermind, what are you waiting for. Open up a training school thats the kind of entrepreneurial drive you guys could use right now.
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Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems with how radical Islam interacts with the West at the moment. It creates more demand for restrictive "security" measures, and galvanizes Westerners towards Islam, Muslims and middle eastern culture in general, which spurs violence and hatred against them, both domestic and abroad, which feeds back into radical Islam notions that we are the enemy, and that their cause is just. It's such an awful cycle because there's quite easy for people to knee-jerk react to such violence, on both sides of it, and enough noise in the background that people rarely collect their thoughts and act rationally when these sorts of things occur.
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EPT
