On November 14 2015 23:56 KT_Elwood wrote: We (EU,US...) have to stand up and DEMAND from anyone who wants to live here, that he or she has to respect basic democracy, religious freedom and human rights.
How can this be achieved without being labeled as racist?
It can't, there's always morons who equal common sense with racism.
Fact is that a majority of turkish (and german citizens of turkish origin) describe themselves as turkish
Ignoring the rest of your post, since it's thin ice - this one here is plain stupid. I live in the UK, but i consider myself german, not british/welsh. How's that news?
That a majority votes AKP is a fact. The question of identity gets interesting if one part of it radically rejects the other. GB/Germany/Sweden/ whatever west is different because a certain set of core values is shared, this is not necessarily the case with a constellation muslim with radical tendencies/west. The western way of doing things doesn't sit well with radical muslims and Erdogan is one and he gets voted for by over 50% of the turkish population in Germany. This is worrying.
Erdogan is a megalomaniac with certain Islamist leanings, but he doesn't get votes because of religion and his religious actions (like trying to restrict alcohol) are his least popular. He's still supported because he oversaw a period of huge economic growth for Turkey and because he's extremely skilled at playing up Turkey's national identity issues (a common theme throughout Turkey's history) and fostering an "us versus them" mentality among the less educated. He's like Putin or Trump.
Equating support for Erdogan to support for ISIS is simply ridiculous. He's a bigoted asshole, and even most Turks know that.
I don't equate support for Erdogan with support for the Islamic state. I say that these are worrying tendencies and that words coming out of the mouth of a some organisation representing people who are majorly voting for a guy like Erdogan should be taken with a big grain of salt as they are nothing but lip service in my opinion.
To put a bit more focus on said worrying tendencies. In Germany Hans Georg Maaßen ("secret service" guy for Germany) spoke of around 30 000 people actively supporting global Djihad from Germany via money, logistical support and recruiting. The passive support or having no real problem with these guys surely goes into six figures.
I don't think that you can grasp the scale of the problem we have with these facist people in mainland Europe. Salafist groups in Germany have growth rates that make the economy jealous, we had attacks in GB, Belgium, Spain, France, some salafist in germany shot up american soldiers, some weeks ago some us soldiers prevented a tragedy on a french train from happening.
We have a problem with radical muslims in Europe and what usually happens is they hide their facism behind the freedom of religion thing or paint themselves as the victim and the broad society doesn' recognise the problem (probably to avoid dealing with it).
i guess we'll have the same discussion as the next islamic motivated nutjob will kill loads of innocent people in some european country.
On November 14 2015 23:56 KT_Elwood wrote: We (EU,US...) have to stand up and DEMAND from anyone who wants to live here, that he or she has to respect basic democracy, religious freedom and human rights.
How can this be achieved without being labeled as racist?
How about grow some balls and say what you believe (not you personally).
On November 14 2015 23:56 KT_Elwood wrote: We (EU,US...) have to stand up and DEMAND from anyone who wants to live here, that he or she has to respect basic democracy, religious freedom and human rights.
How can this be achieved without being labeled as racist?
It can't, there's always morons who equal common sense with racism.
Fact is that a majority of turkish (and german citizens of turkish origin) describe themselves as turkish
Ignoring the rest of your post, since it's thin ice - this one here is plain stupid. I live in the UK, but i consider myself german, not british/welsh. How's that news?
That a majority votes AKP is a fact. The question of identity gets interesting if one part of it radically rejects the other. GB/Germany/Sweden/ whatever west is different because a certain set of core values is shared, this is not necessarily the case with a constellation muslim with radical tendencies/west. The western way of doing things doesn't sit well with radical muslims and Erdogan is one and he gets voted for by over 50% of the turkish population in Germany. This is worrying.
First, if you state something as "fact", link a source to something that makes it a fact, not just your opinion.
And no, there's no difference between me considering myself german in the UK and turkish considering themselves turkish in germany. I would also consider myself german if i for whatever reason would move to turkey. It's an argument that i'd expect from a pegida clown, not someone on TL.
edit: to be clear, it doesn't matter where i go, i will always be a german. Proud of that, on top.
If you call something "thin ice" you should be able to inform yourself before attacking something as eventually factual incorrect, but here we go, he even got nearly 60%
You come off as said pegida/afd clown. You start with a completely retarded argument (turkish considering themselves turkish in germany), followed by some statement. Thin ice is not the 60% voting for erdogan, but you spouting populistic shit in every posting you made in this thread, and i don't want to get warnings in a clearly moderated thread.
And who gives a shit what they vote for, they don't vote for islamic fundamentalism, or are we germans now crusaders because we vote CDU, you know, the german conservatives? Of course Erdogan is a clown, possibly dangerous. But they're not necessarily voting his religious views, as much as you/anyone don't vote for merkels.
That connection, and there we close the circle again, comes from people that i don't want to be connected with in any way. Pegida clowns, populistic idiots and so on. Same people who say "well turkish in germany consider themselves turkish!!!!".
edit: lol
Just saw it, my hometown is #2 in the "people who voted for erdogan" list. Yeah, from experience.. I've yet to meet a fundamentalist, or radical. And i lived in the "most immigrant-y" part of Essen, for more than 30 years.
It is quite telling that you needed to edit your post in that way, you know actually taking something out of the source you asked for in the first place.
Translation is that you didn't even read the source you asked for at first but rather prefered to stick to absolute speculation and insults.
On November 14 2015 21:23 shabby wrote: Doesn't get much worse than this. Cowardly acts from cowardly people, disguised by religion. Syria and Iraq will turn into a crater - first bomb a russian passenger jet (if it was them), and then attack Paris.. That means entire NATO and Russia can now theoretically be involved. It feels like its just a matter of time before it escalates, so I hope that sooner, rather than later, a joint coalition enters all the IS strongholds and destroys their infrastructure and takes away their income. Bombing won't do it alone, need ground troops. And in the process, anyone not hiding, would be killed.
This is not a rambo movie... you will be sad with what reality has to offer. ISIS has been getting bombed by dozens of different countries.. and figthing against dozens of other different grousp, you won't be able to do anything relevant against them that is not already being done.
I disagree, fighting rebel groups and being bombed is very different from a coordinated ground invasion to reclaim cities, infrastructure and oil. NATO alone has millions of active soldiers, it might just too difficult to do anything without the help of neighbouring countries. If what you say is true, conquerors can never be overthrown.
No one is willing to spend that many resources to attack isis.. i mean, there are already a number of groups on the ground figthing against them so... imagine adding nato to the mix.. it would be a recipe for disaster.
If NATO is actually serious and able to field a considerable force (about 100 000 soldiers + tanks, attack helicopters, a full-size airforce and naval bombardment) while at the same time stops giving a damn about Syria's and Iraq's sovereignty, ISIS would not last very long.
Winning a military victory isn't the problem. It never has for the West. It's usually the aftermath that we screw up royally.
Click the above link to see how France fixed Saudi Arabia up with 12 billion € worth of weapons last year.
Who do you think is the true hand guiding extreme religious fundamentalism? Many informed people believe it is in fact ... Saudi Arabia.
We have more in common with peons in the middle east than we do with our own leaders, not matter what our religion may be, and the same goes for them. Just peasants in the game of thrones.
On November 14 2015 21:23 shabby wrote: Doesn't get much worse than this. Cowardly acts from cowardly people, disguised by religion. Syria and Iraq will turn into a crater - first bomb a russian passenger jet (if it was them), and then attack Paris.. That means entire NATO and Russia can now theoretically be involved. It feels like its just a matter of time before it escalates, so I hope that sooner, rather than later, a joint coalition enters all the IS strongholds and destroys their infrastructure and takes away their income. Bombing won't do it alone, need ground troops. And in the process, anyone not hiding, would be killed.
This is not a rambo movie... you will be sad with what reality has to offer. ISIS has been getting bombed by dozens of different countries.. and figthing against dozens of other different grousp, you won't be able to do anything relevant against them that is not already being done.
I disagree, fighting rebel groups and being bombed is very different from a coordinated ground invasion to reclaim cities, infrastructure and oil. NATO alone has millions of active soldiers, it might just too difficult to do anything without the help of neighbouring countries. If what you say is true, conquerors can never be overthrown.
No one is willing to spend that many resources to attack isis.. i mean, there are already a number of groups on the ground figthing against them so... imagine adding nato to the mix.. it would be a recipe for disaster.
If NATO is actually serious and able to field a considerable force (about 100 000 soldiers + tanks, attack helicopters, a full-size airforce and naval bombardment) while at the same time stops giving a damn about Syria's and Iraq's sovereignty, ISIS would not last very long.
Winning a military victory isn't the problem. It never has for the West. It's usually the aftermath that we screw up royally.
The aftermath is the harder part, especially since these are not traditional nations NATO would be fighting. This isn't Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. There is no unconditional surrender. No on will sue for peace. They just wait until the political will of the invading nation wains and then start again. You would need hundreds of thousands of troops, since 400K was insufficient to close Iraq's boarders. They will come from other sections of the world to kill western troops and the troops won't be able to tell who is who because they don't speak the language.
And while doing this, other groups will use the invasion as recruitment material.
On November 14 2015 23:06 damoonwolf wrote: France is not a racist country. I don't say no french is racist, but i have the chance to travel, to see other country and France are not more racist than other country i know and less clearly less than someone. You just have to look the big amont of mixt wedding(27% of weeding in France are between people who have different roots, it's 15% in Us for compare), and young people in the street, they don't care about race.
Sometime i listen some people say than french banlieu are racial ghetto. It's wrong, it's financial ghetto. You live here when you have no money. Don't care about your skin color or religion. There white french people, black people, arabian people, european people,... in. Only your money is important.
France have big economic issue since sometime everyone suffer of this. People who live in banlieu more than other because they are the porest and banlieu is shitty place, but they're not all emigrant victim to racism. they are also white french people in the same situation. Black christian people in don't kill inocent people in the street.
So please you believe some shitty thing you can read about France. I will don't say to you to come because at this time you probably don't want but... come. Especially if you are not white, i don't thing you will suffer to racism.
Racism is not the reason. We can talking about economic issue for these people, about the islamist propaganda who are well establish, specificly, in social media, youtube channel ect...
I work thith teenager who have familial issue i see how this propaganda work well for someone, i actually work with 2 of them who are file like potencial jihadist. They are just 2 lost child, who find this for exist. Propaganda say to them they will have better live in ISIS or in paradise, and since they are little dummy and totaly lost they belive in this. They belive in this like some other believe they will become popstar... it's a stupid dream, but some people are here ready for keep them mind are made to them an islamic people.
France is increasingly racist. People are more and more open minded towards racism. Just check almost all our right wing parties speeches. We're not a racist country yet, but we're coming closer and closer those years.
I agree the propaganda is designed for lost teenagers, no matter their origin as we've seen a fair part of white crazy Islamic.
On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote: I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support.
Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings.
On November 14 2015 23:56 KT_Elwood wrote: We (EU,US...) have to stand up and DEMAND from anyone who wants to live here, that he or she has to respect basic democracy, religious freedom and human rights.
How can this be achieved without being labeled as racist?
It can't, there's always morons who equal common sense with racism.
Fact is that a majority of turkish (and german citizens of turkish origin) describe themselves as turkish
Ignoring the rest of your post, since it's thin ice - this one here is plain stupid. I live in the UK, but i consider myself german, not british/welsh. How's that news?
That a majority votes AKP is a fact. The question of identity gets interesting if one part of it radically rejects the other. GB/Germany/Sweden/ whatever west is different because a certain set of core values is shared, this is not necessarily the case with a constellation muslim with radical tendencies/west. The western way of doing things doesn't sit well with radical muslims and Erdogan is one and he gets voted for by over 50% of the turkish population in Germany. This is worrying.
First, if you state something as "fact", link a source to something that makes it a fact, not just your opinion.
And no, there's no difference between me considering myself german in the UK and turkish considering themselves turkish in germany. I would also consider myself german if i for whatever reason would move to turkey. It's an argument that i'd expect from a pegida clown, not someone on TL.
edit: to be clear, it doesn't matter where i go, i will always be a german. Proud of that, on top.
there is a difference in that Germany and the UK share most of their core cultural, political, and economic values and systems. the core values of islam are not only different from western values, they are in many ways directly oppositional. your statement is only true in a narrow semantic sense and is in no way relevant to actual reality. so yes if you identify as German in the UK nobody gives a shit; its not nationality (or race for that matter) that is the issue, its culture.
the sad fact is that this is a culture war; it's liberty and individual rights vs enslavement and collectivism. unfortunately, many western countries have already embraced a collectivist and identity driven politics, which makes it almost impossible to criticize an objectively worse culture.
On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote: I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support.
Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings.
For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence.
On November 14 2015 21:23 shabby wrote: Doesn't get much worse than this. Cowardly acts from cowardly people, disguised by religion. Syria and Iraq will turn into a crater - first bomb a russian passenger jet (if it was them), and then attack Paris.. That means entire NATO and Russia can now theoretically be involved. It feels like its just a matter of time before it escalates, so I hope that sooner, rather than later, a joint coalition enters all the IS strongholds and destroys their infrastructure and takes away their income. Bombing won't do it alone, need ground troops. And in the process, anyone not hiding, would be killed.
This is not a rambo movie... you will be sad with what reality has to offer. ISIS has been getting bombed by dozens of different countries.. and figthing against dozens of other different grousp, you won't be able to do anything relevant against them that is not already being done.
I disagree, fighting rebel groups and being bombed is very different from a coordinated ground invasion to reclaim cities, infrastructure and oil. NATO alone has millions of active soldiers, it might just too difficult to do anything without the help of neighbouring countries. If what you say is true, conquerors can never be overthrown.
No one is willing to spend that many resources to attack isis.. i mean, there are already a number of groups on the ground figthing against them so... imagine adding nato to the mix.. it would be a recipe for disaster.
If NATO is actually serious and able to field a considerable force (about 100 000 soldiers + tanks, attack helicopters, a full-size airforce and naval bombardment) while at the same time stops giving a damn about Syria's and Iraq's sovereignty, ISIS would not last very long.
Winning a military victory isn't the problem. It never has for the West. It's usually the aftermath that we screw up royally.
The aftermath is the harder part, especially since these are not traditional nations NATO would be fighting. This isn't Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. There is no unconditional surrender. No on will sue for peace. They just wait until the political will of the invading nation wains and then start again. You would need hundreds of thousands of troops, since 400K was insufficient to close Iraq's boarders. They will come from other sections of the world to kill western troops and the troops won't be able to tell who is who because they don't speak the language.
And while doing this, other groups will use the invasion as recruitment material.
A lack of unconditional surrender is only part of the problem. Another problem, which is (or rather, was) hugely underestimated is that those middle eastern countries have no real historic track record of high-level administration and bureaucracy. Those regions are strictly tribal, and always have been. Japan and Germany were able to climb the economic and social ladders as quickly as they did because the desired behaviour towards discipline, respect for (secular) law and authority, and efficient bureaucracy were already present. Those elements are all but absent in the middle east, were the one who rules is usually the guy (or tribe) with the biggest stick who will then leverage all the resources in favour of his kinsmen regardless of what happens to the rest of the country or region. People like Hamid Karzai are tribal leaders, not politicians as we know them in Europe and the US.
This guy really does sum it up very nicely. thanks Rocket-Bear.
Which is why we should all be Christians, the religion that loves and tolerates all people and has never in its history grounded itself in violence against other groups, especially other Christians, which we should all be.
This guy does a very clever thing where he moves from saying things that are pretty obvious (extremists think of themselves as Muslims and are doing things because they think that's what Islam is about) and then subtly changing the content of his argument to something that shouldn't be taken for granted but is because he's got people all riled up. "Brazen double-standard" of the police? I mean I guess I could take his word for it. But I've known Muslims who are peaceful, tolerant people. Or are they the ones who actually have "nothing to do with Islam?"
On November 14 2015 23:56 KT_Elwood wrote: We (EU,US...) have to stand up and DEMAND from anyone who wants to live here, that he or she has to respect basic democracy, religious freedom and human rights.
How can this be achieved without being labeled as racist?
It can't, there's always morons who equal common sense with racism.
Fact is that a majority of turkish (and german citizens of turkish origin) describe themselves as turkish
Ignoring the rest of your post, since it's thin ice - this one here is plain stupid. I live in the UK, but i consider myself german, not british/welsh. How's that news?
That a majority votes AKP is a fact. The question of identity gets interesting if one part of it radically rejects the other. GB/Germany/Sweden/ whatever west is different because a certain set of core values is shared, this is not necessarily the case with a constellation muslim with radical tendencies/west. The western way of doing things doesn't sit well with radical muslims and Erdogan is one and he gets voted for by over 50% of the turkish population in Germany. This is worrying.
First, if you state something as "fact", link a source to something that makes it a fact, not just your opinion.
And no, there's no difference between me considering myself german in the UK and turkish considering themselves turkish in germany. I would also consider myself german if i for whatever reason would move to turkey. It's an argument that i'd expect from a pegida clown, not someone on TL.
edit: to be clear, it doesn't matter where i go, i will always be a german. Proud of that, on top.
there is a difference in that Germany and GB share most of their core cultural, political, and economic values and systems. the core values of islam are not only different from western values, they are in many ways directly oppositional. your statement is only true in a narrow semantic sense and is in no way relevant to actual reality. so yes if you identify as German in the UK nobody gives a shit; its not nationality (or race for that matter) that is the issue, its culture.
the sad fact is that this is a culture war; it's liberty and individual rights vs enslavement and collectivism. unfortunately, many western countries have already embraced a collectivist and identity driven politics, which makes it almost impossible to criticize an objectively worse culture.
And of course, when you're in a culture war, the right thing to do is to continually paint a picture that integrates as many people as possible in the other side, so that the task gets harder. Take Turkey, for example. Has been a secular country for years, has been democratic (well Erdogan rigged a few elections but hey, who didn't), has been our ally against ISIS. But hey, they're muslim, so they're the enemy.
Sounds like the kind of position that will solve all of our problems.
EPT
((
