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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 15 2015 02:56 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. How is that the case, if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. Jihad doesnt mean blow yourself up and kill nonbelievers it means struggle. Struggle to improve oneself. If I recall their were only 4 recorded stonings in history of early Muslim history and all of them were requested by the one who committed the act (and I dont think stonings are acceptable in the present era but thats a whole other discussion). Again people make claims about what 7th century muslims did but from what I can see you are either fabricating those or taking them out of context. The unfortunately reality is that there is a substantial number of Muslims (millions) who strictly disagree with your interpretation of your faith. And you clearly don't know your history very well if you don't know how Islam spread so quickly in the first century of its existence.
I dont deny Islam conqered Syria and Iraq. But remember that was the norm of the time. Im not going to do that today and neither should anyone else. Furthermore back then there was no conversion by the sword, can you tell me thats the case in other religions?
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All three Abrahamic religions arose out of and spread through conflict in one way or another, so that's a nonstarter for comparisons anyhow.
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On November 15 2015 02:57 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:54 maybenexttime wrote:On November 15 2015 02:40 RuiBarbO wrote:On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 15 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence. So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. What it means to practice Islam is clearly contested (see: Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Kurds). So in that sense, you're right (unless you were being sarcastic?), there's no one unified "Islam" we can point to as definitely the "true" Islam. But doesn't that mean that someone who commits violence explicitly in the name of Islam must be somewhat confused? Clearly, they think they're following "true" Islam. But why should we take their word for it? I'd be inclined, based on the first part of what you said, to do exactly the opposite. Perhaps because that is what the founders of Islam did, with Muhammad as the prime example? So there is justification for counterattacks to terrorist attacks but not self defense?
What are you trying to say? That Muhammad conquered massive swaths of land, killing many, many people in the process and subjugating many more... in self-defense?
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On November 15 2015 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:37 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:28 Furikawari wrote:On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 15 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence. So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. I'll think about ur wise words next time I'lI hear about a priest accused of child abuse. There is a slight difference. As far as I am aware the bible doesn't mandate molesting children but the koran mandates fighting against nonbelievers, gays, jews, apostates and various other groups numerous times. Still nobody with a brain can deny that the church protected cuplrits of child abuse and prevented a full scale clear up from happening but it is not mandated in the holy book. We can see fighting against nonbelievers, slave trade and all that shit in the old testament. Difference is that political christianity and its influence over people got destroyed some centuries ago while political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in Egypt in the 50's. But let's be cultural relativists instead until the next religiously motivated massacre. See you guys in the thread about the next attack in Europe. Luckily enough, the Quran also forbids suicide (even in times of war), aggressive warfare, and attacking other people of the book, so I guess we're completely safe because what's written in this book completely matters.
Some verses from the Koran:
4 5: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit, except those who are disabled, and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit. Unto each, Allah has promised good, but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit by a huge reward ".
8:12: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
8:39: "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"
9:5. "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
So I guess avoiding death for the people of the book means to pay protection money and submission. But of course the holy book can still top that:
9:30: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
You can literally find dozens of these and even more of them in the hadiths, tolerance is certainly not the strong point of the monotheist and probably even less the strong point of muslimic spiritual believe.
User was warned for this post
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On November 15 2015 03:02 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 15 2015 02:37 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:28 Furikawari wrote:On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 15 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence. So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. I'll think about ur wise words next time I'lI hear about a priest accused of child abuse. There is a slight difference. As far as I am aware the bible doesn't mandate molesting children but the koran mandates fighting against nonbelievers, gays, jews, apostates and various other groups numerous times. Still nobody with a brain can deny that the church protected cuplrits of child abuse and prevented a full scale clear up from happening but it is not mandated in the holy book. We can see fighting against nonbelievers, slave trade and all that shit in the old testament. Difference is that political christianity and its influence over people got destroyed some centuries ago while political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in Egypt in the 50's. But let's be cultural relativists instead until the next religiously motivated massacre. See you guys in the thread about the next attack in Europe. Luckily enough, the Quran also forbids suicide (even in times of war), aggressive warfare, and attacking other people of the book, so I guess we're completely safe because what's written in this book completely matters. Some verses from the Koran: 4 5: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit, except those who are disabled, and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit. Unto each, Allah has promised good, but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit by a huge reward ". 8:12: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" 8:39: "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" 9:5. "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." So I guess avoiding death for the people of the book means to pay protection money and submission. But of course the holy book can still top that: 9:30: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" You can literally find dozens of these and even more of them in the hadiths, tolerance is certainly not the strong point of the monotheist and probably even less the strong point of muslimic spiritual believe.
Then why aren't more muslims killing nonbelievers? and why aren't they at least paying the fee for not doing so?
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On November 15 2015 02:19 Mohdoo wrote:
I hope Merkel's ridiculous dreams for how europe handles refugees get beaten into the ground after this.
Yes so called refugees
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On November 15 2015 03:02 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 15 2015 02:37 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:28 Furikawari wrote:On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 15 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence. So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. I'll think about ur wise words next time I'lI hear about a priest accused of child abuse. There is a slight difference. As far as I am aware the bible doesn't mandate molesting children but the koran mandates fighting against nonbelievers, gays, jews, apostates and various other groups numerous times. Still nobody with a brain can deny that the church protected cuplrits of child abuse and prevented a full scale clear up from happening but it is not mandated in the holy book. We can see fighting against nonbelievers, slave trade and all that shit in the old testament. Difference is that political christianity and its influence over people got destroyed some centuries ago while political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in Egypt in the 50's. But let's be cultural relativists instead until the next religiously motivated massacre. See you guys in the thread about the next attack in Europe. Luckily enough, the Quran also forbids suicide (even in times of war), aggressive warfare, and attacking other people of the book, so I guess we're completely safe because what's written in this book completely matters. Some verses from the Koran: 4 5: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit, except those who are disabled, and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit. Unto each, Allah has promised good, but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit by a huge reward ". 8:12: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" 8:39: "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" 9:5. "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." So I guess avoiding death for the people of the book means to pay protection money and submission. But of course the holy book can still top that: 9:30: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" You can literally find dozens of these and even more of them in the hadiths, tolerance is certainly not the strong point of the monotheist and probably even less the strong point of muslimic spiritual believe.
You can take selective lines (not necessarily out of context) from pretty much any text and have them convey some sort of extreme, anachronistic message. What about stoning and all that in the Bible?
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On November 15 2015 03:02 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 15 2015 02:37 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:28 Furikawari wrote:On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 15 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence. So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. I'll think about ur wise words next time I'lI hear about a priest accused of child abuse. There is a slight difference. As far as I am aware the bible doesn't mandate molesting children but the koran mandates fighting against nonbelievers, gays, jews, apostates and various other groups numerous times. Still nobody with a brain can deny that the church protected cuplrits of child abuse and prevented a full scale clear up from happening but it is not mandated in the holy book. We can see fighting against nonbelievers, slave trade and all that shit in the old testament. Difference is that political christianity and its influence over people got destroyed some centuries ago while political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in Egypt in the 50's. But let's be cultural relativists instead until the next religiously motivated massacre. See you guys in the thread about the next attack in Europe. Luckily enough, the Quran also forbids suicide (even in times of war), aggressive warfare, and attacking other people of the book, so I guess we're completely safe because what's written in this book completely matters. Some verses from the Koran: 4 5: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit, except those who are disabled, and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit. Unto each, Allah has promised good, but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit by a huge reward ". 8:12: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" 8:39: "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" 9:5. "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." So I guess avoiding death for the people of the book means to pay protection money and submission. But of course the holy book can still top that: 9:30: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" You can literally find dozens of these and even more of them in the hadiths, tolerance is certainly not the strong point of the monotheist and probably even less the strong point of muslimic spiritual believe.
As a student of religious history (my second major in college) , first of all let me tell you that half of those are misquoted or mistranslated, and the other half are incident specific, very very specific.
As for Hadith outside of maybe four or five with legitimate credence and recording, most of them are bullshit.
Im pretty sure you have'nt studied that book and found those quotes from some right wing fundo web portal looking at that.
Typical google scholar lol.
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On November 15 2015 03:06 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:02 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 15 2015 02:37 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:28 Furikawari wrote:On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 15 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence. So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. I'll think about ur wise words next time I'lI hear about a priest accused of child abuse. There is a slight difference. As far as I am aware the bible doesn't mandate molesting children but the koran mandates fighting against nonbelievers, gays, jews, apostates and various other groups numerous times. Still nobody with a brain can deny that the church protected cuplrits of child abuse and prevented a full scale clear up from happening but it is not mandated in the holy book. We can see fighting against nonbelievers, slave trade and all that shit in the old testament. Difference is that political christianity and its influence over people got destroyed some centuries ago while political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in Egypt in the 50's. But let's be cultural relativists instead until the next religiously motivated massacre. See you guys in the thread about the next attack in Europe. Luckily enough, the Quran also forbids suicide (even in times of war), aggressive warfare, and attacking other people of the book, so I guess we're completely safe because what's written in this book completely matters. Some verses from the Koran: 4 5: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit, except those who are disabled, and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit. Unto each, Allah has promised good, but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit by a huge reward ". 8:12: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" 8:39: "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" 9:5. "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." So I guess avoiding death for the people of the book means to pay protection money and submission. But of course the holy book can still top that: 9:30: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" You can literally find dozens of these and even more of them in the hadiths, tolerance is certainly not the strong point of the monotheist and probably even less the strong point of muslimic spiritual believe. Then why aren't more muslims killing nonbelievers? and why aren't they at least paying the fee for not doing so?
Because Islam is the root of evil we are talking about, not people. Every person in this world has some level of morality since they are born. Some Muslims simply fight against Quran and Hadith with cherry picking and ignorance. Those who live in more secular countries, can even live like decent human beings their whole life without any issue. ... "why aren't they at least paying the fee for not doing so" ... havent you seen what ISIS or Taliban do to Muslims, who are not enough Muslims?
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On November 15 2015 03:08 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:02 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 15 2015 02:37 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:28 Furikawari wrote:On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 15 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence. So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. I'll think about ur wise words next time I'lI hear about a priest accused of child abuse. There is a slight difference. As far as I am aware the bible doesn't mandate molesting children but the koran mandates fighting against nonbelievers, gays, jews, apostates and various other groups numerous times. Still nobody with a brain can deny that the church protected cuplrits of child abuse and prevented a full scale clear up from happening but it is not mandated in the holy book. We can see fighting against nonbelievers, slave trade and all that shit in the old testament. Difference is that political christianity and its influence over people got destroyed some centuries ago while political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in Egypt in the 50's. But let's be cultural relativists instead until the next religiously motivated massacre. See you guys in the thread about the next attack in Europe. Luckily enough, the Quran also forbids suicide (even in times of war), aggressive warfare, and attacking other people of the book, so I guess we're completely safe because what's written in this book completely matters. Some verses from the Koran: 4 5: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit, except those who are disabled, and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit. Unto each, Allah has promised good, but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit by a huge reward ". 8:12: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" 8:39: "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" 9:5. "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." So I guess avoiding death for the people of the book means to pay protection money and submission. But of course the holy book can still top that: 9:30: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" You can literally find dozens of these and even more of them in the hadiths, tolerance is certainly not the strong point of the monotheist and probably even less the strong point of muslimic spiritual believe. You can take selective lines (not necessarily out of context) from pretty much any text and have them convey some sort of extreme, anachronistic message. What about stoning and all that in the Bible?
Is exactly the same backwards shit. To put it out bluntly. Every monotheistic religion is facist in it's very core as it puts believers over nonbelievers, one gets rewarded the other punished usually by death in this life and damnation/hell in the next.
The difference is political christianity got deprived of power centuries ago, until that happened and the churches had power, Europe was a shithole. Contrary to the european development, political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in the 1950's in Egypt. It already turned every country in the mideast and several others in utter hellholes and will continue to do so until political islam is broken as political christianity was centuries ago.
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Guys, we're really venturing onto dangerous ground...
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On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense.
You're wrong.
According to different former member is ISIS who come back in europe. Their day in ISIS was about training fight, pray and read Qoran. Some of them said ISIS was too religious for them. Than they had go for fight and no for pass the half or their time to pray and read Qoran.
Despite a idea well spread in north america, ISIS is a highly religious organisation. The life or their membrer are dicted by, and don't want to see this is make a big misinterpretation oft what they are, why they born and what they want.
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AngryMag, why are you under the impression that those quotes alter the point that I've just made? I haven't said there are no violent verses in the Quran, I said what's written in it doesn't matter. You're arguing that it does, and it's an unsustainable position. First because of my latest post: if what was written in it mattered, then we wouldn't have suicide bombings, as suicide is forbidden, we wouldn't have 9/11, as aggressive warfare is forbidden, we wouldn't have death for apostasy, as there is no compulsion in religion... Second, because that's just not really possible. There are too many contradictions in it (as in any holy book), and as such, you can't be a "literalist", you can't follow everything.
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On November 15 2015 03:13 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Guys, we're really venturing onto dangerous ground...
Did you honestly expect us not to?
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And the argument, that you can take stoning in Bible and so on. It does not say anything good about Quran and Islam. It just say, that religions (at least those connected to god of Abraham) are equally bad.
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On November 15 2015 03:06 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:02 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 15 2015 02:37 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2015 02:28 Furikawari wrote:On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:On November 15 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence. So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. I'll think about ur wise words next time I'lI hear about a priest accused of child abuse. There is a slight difference. As far as I am aware the bible doesn't mandate molesting children but the koran mandates fighting against nonbelievers, gays, jews, apostates and various other groups numerous times. Still nobody with a brain can deny that the church protected cuplrits of child abuse and prevented a full scale clear up from happening but it is not mandated in the holy book. We can see fighting against nonbelievers, slave trade and all that shit in the old testament. Difference is that political christianity and its influence over people got destroyed some centuries ago while political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in Egypt in the 50's. But let's be cultural relativists instead until the next religiously motivated massacre. See you guys in the thread about the next attack in Europe. Luckily enough, the Quran also forbids suicide (even in times of war), aggressive warfare, and attacking other people of the book, so I guess we're completely safe because what's written in this book completely matters. Some verses from the Koran: 4 5: "Not equal are those of the believers who sit, except those who are disabled, and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit. Unto each, Allah has promised good, but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit by a huge reward ". 8:12: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" 8:39: "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" 9:5. "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." So I guess avoiding death for the people of the book means to pay protection money and submission. But of course the holy book can still top that: 9:30: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" You can literally find dozens of these and even more of them in the hadiths, tolerance is certainly not the strong point of the monotheist and probably even less the strong point of muslimic spiritual believe. Then why aren't more muslims killing nonbelievers? and why aren't they at least paying the fee for not doing so?
His point is that monotheist religon are an intolerant ideologies, not that the people who believe in them are.
And, as a religious you seems to have some troubles to understand this but there is not one Islam and one Truth about Islam but a lot of interpretations about it. I am pretty sure some people of Daesh know even better than you the Qoran, they just have a different point of view which can be explained by a different social condition. Faith and religion are a problem (from my perspective) but the issue is firstly politic.
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On November 15 2015 03:15 damoonwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. You're wrong. According to different former member is ISIS who come back in europe. Their day in ISIS was about training fight, pray and read Qoran. Some of them said ISIS was too religious for them. Than they had go for fight and no for pass the half or their time to pray and read Qoran. Despite a idea well spread in north america, ISIS is a highly religious organisation. The life or their membrer are dicted by, and don't want to see this is make a big misinterpretation oft what they are, why they born and what they want.
This is why there is no end to this argument. No matter what I say or how much evidence I provide, you still cling to your bigoted beliefs, claiming that what I am saying is incorrect but whatever you say or bring to the table proving Islam is bad is perfectly reasonable and true. Muslims can't win in a debate that isn't even a debate, because no matter what we say, it won't change your blind opinion on the matter.
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On November 15 2015 03:17 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:13 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Guys, we're really venturing onto dangerous ground... Did you honestly expect us not to?
Probably not, but I feel this is not the time to debate whether Islam is at its core a violent religion or not. A lot of us are just too upset.
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On November 15 2015 03:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 03:13 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Guys, we're really venturing onto dangerous ground... Did you honestly expect us not to? Probably not, but I feel this is not the time to debate whether Islam is at its core a violent religion or not. A lot of us are just too upset.
Me most of all, I guarantee....
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Canada11520 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:32 Kickboxer wrote:
When people are destitute and have exactly zero perspective for any form of decent life, ever, you can convince them into anything. In the name of Jesus, Allah or the Muppets it doesn't matter.
You can't radicalize people with jobs, hobbies and a warm place to stay, because those people don't have a reason to shoot shit up. In Europe, marginalized white kids won't become jihadists but instead neonazis. Whatever offers a purpose and a community.
In the US, are school shooters Muslim? I'm pretty sure most of them are self-professed atheists.
Organized religion isn't faultless, certainly, but it's not the core problem behind terrorism or international violence, and there also isn't much difference between its various manifestations. To say Christians are "peaceful" is very ironic.
This may seems intuitively true- that poverty allows for easier recruitment, but I recall a CBC reports several years ago- after the invasion of Iraq that looked at study of suicide bombers. (I wish I could find it again.) But it suggested that contrary to the idea getting recruits from the poor and ignorant, the bombers tended towards educated and reasonable affluent... I'd be curious on a study of who ISIS has been recruiting in the West as well- the Canadian ones were often in university. Maybe they were marginalized in another sense, but it's not like they were recruiting homeless people or First Nations.
However, have the suicide attackers even been identified?
On November 15 2015 03:01 farvacola wrote:
All three Abrahamic religions arose out of and spread through conflict in one way or another, so that's a nonstarter for comparisons anyhow.
Depends when you mean- first 300 years, Christianity was deeply pacifistic- it's only when they gained political power that things went sideways.
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EPT
