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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 15 2015 03:15 damoonwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. You're wrong. According to different former member is ISIS who come back in europe. Their day in ISIS was about training fight, pray and read Qoran. Some of them said ISIS was too religious for them. Than they had go for fight and no for pass the half or their time to pray and read Qoran. Despite a idea well spread in north america, ISIS is a highly religious organisation. The life or their membrer are dicted by, and don't want to see this is make a big misinterpretation oft what they are, why they born and what they want.
ISIS is the most devout of Islam countries. Which makes sense since the raison d'etre for ISIS is to create a caliphate among the sea of hypocritical muslim countries. For example, people caught smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol will face harsh punishment such as death in ISIS., and this rule applies to the leadership unlike in countries like Saudi Arabia, where you hear of princes going clubbing in the US.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2860615/ISIS-cracks-cigarettes-alcohol-Extraordinary-pictures-emerge-hardline-jihadists-piling-whisky-beer-tobacco-bonfire.html
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Canada13402 Posts
On November 15 2015 03:13 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Guys, we're really venturing onto dangerous ground...
I agree. I think the thread is beginning to derail. Please remember to follow the thread specific mod note.
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On November 15 2015 03:19 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:15 damoonwolf wrote:On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. You're wrong. According to different former member is ISIS who come back in europe. Their day in ISIS was about training fight, pray and read Qoran. Some of them said ISIS was too religious for them. Than they had go for fight and no for pass the half or their time to pray and read Qoran. Despite a idea well spread in north america, ISIS is a highly religious organisation. The life or their membrer are dicted by, and don't want to see this is make a big misinterpretation oft what they are, why they born and what they want. This is why there is no end to this argument. No matter what I say or how much evidence I provide, you still cling to your bigoted beliefs, claiming that what I am saying is incorrect but whatever you say or bring to the table proving Islam is bad is perfectly reasonable and true. Muslims can't win in a debate that isn't even a debate, because no matter what we say, it won't change your blind opinion on the matter.
You know more how is the life in ISIS than their former member?
You have no argument exept repeat what you think. I quote a based ISIS source you just quote yourself, and it's me or orther people who are blind? Dat joke you are.
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On November 15 2015 03:19 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:15 damoonwolf wrote:On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. You're wrong. According to different former member is ISIS who come back in europe. Their day in ISIS was about training fight, pray and read Qoran. Some of them said ISIS was too religious for them. Than they had go for fight and no for pass the half or their time to pray and read Qoran. Despite a idea well spread in north america, ISIS is a highly religious organisation. The life or their membrer are dicted by, and don't want to see this is make a big misinterpretation oft what they are, why they born and what they want. This is why there is no end to this argument. No matter what I say or how much evidence I provide, you still cling to your bigoted beliefs, claiming that what I am saying is incorrect but whatever you say or bring to the table proving Islam is bad is perfectly reasonable and true. Muslims can't win in a debate that isn't even a debate, because no matter what we say, it won't change your blind opinion on the matter.
Muslims can't win in a debate because they avoid all debate by accusing anyone who'd criticize them of being bigoted and racist. It's literally impossible to argue against you. It's impossible to argue against your narrow understanding of Islam which completely excludes anything you personally don't like. It's pointless because your rejection of the bad parts of Islam doesn't change the fact that they exist, but so many people act like the disconnect is absolute. It isn't.
The fact that there are bigoted people who criticize your religion doesn't mean that the ideology as a whole cannot be discussed.
Sorry if it comes off as harsh by the way, I just think it's frustrating that there are these social matters to discuss but we can't because the debate is muddied by angry people on both sides who just have an agenda.
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On November 15 2015 03:21 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:32 Kickboxer wrote:
When people are destitute and have exactly zero perspective for any form of decent life, ever, you can convince them into anything. In the name of Jesus, Allah or the Muppets it doesn't matter.
You can't radicalize people with jobs, hobbies and a warm place to stay, because those people don't have a reason to shoot shit up. In Europe, marginalized white kids won't become jihadists but instead neonazis. Whatever offers a purpose and a community.
In the US, are school shooters Muslim? I'm pretty sure most of them are self-professed atheists.
Organized religion isn't faultless, certainly, but it's not the core problem behind terrorism or international violence, and there also isn't much difference between its various manifestations. To say Christians are "peaceful" is very ironic. This may seems intuitively true- that poverty allows for easier recruitment, but I recall a CBC reports several years ago- after the invasion of Iraq that looked at study of suicide bombers. (I wish I could find it again.) But it suggested that contrary to the idea getting recruits from the poor and ignorant, the bombers tended towards educated and reasonable affluent... I'd be curious on a study of who ISIS has been recruiting in the West as well- the Canadian ones were often in university. Maybe they were marginalized in another sense, but it's not like they were recruiting homeless people or First Nations. However, have the suicide attackers even been identified?
This is probably armchair psychology, but I don't think it's necessarily socioeconomic status that drives people to extremism. It's more a feeling of not being part of something and that the world, in some way, has left you behind or out. That's a feeling people of all sorts get. Doesn't matter if you have loving, college-educated parents and a good home, sometimes nature plus nurture makes weird things happen. People fall through cracks even if you can't see them.
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On November 15 2015 03:25 damoonwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:19 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 03:15 damoonwolf wrote:On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. You're wrong. According to different former member is ISIS who come back in europe. Their day in ISIS was about training fight, pray and read Qoran. Some of them said ISIS was too religious for them. Than they had go for fight and no for pass the half or their time to pray and read Qoran. Despite a idea well spread in north america, ISIS is a highly religious organisation. The life or their membrer are dicted by, and don't want to see this is make a big misinterpretation oft what they are, why they born and what they want. This is why there is no end to this argument. No matter what I say or how much evidence I provide, you still cling to your bigoted beliefs, claiming that what I am saying is incorrect but whatever you say or bring to the table proving Islam is bad is perfectly reasonable and true. Muslims can't win in a debate that isn't even a debate, because no matter what we say, it won't change your blind opinion on the matter. You know more how is the life in ISIS than their former member? You have no argument exept repeat what you think. I quote a based ISIS source you just quote yourself, and it's me or orther people who are blind? Dat joke you are.
ISIS will do anything to promote their campaign of the West vs Muslims, if you honestly want to kid yourself by believing anything they tell you, than I don't know what to say to you.
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We can argue about Islam all day but first I suggest we take a moment and remember how the Islamic State was an US creation just like Al Qaeda was.
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On November 15 2015 03:21 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:15 damoonwolf wrote:On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. You're wrong. According to different former member is ISIS who come back in europe. Their day in ISIS was about training fight, pray and read Qoran. Some of them said ISIS was too religious for them. Than they had go for fight and no for pass the half or their time to pray and read Qoran. Despite a idea well spread in north america, ISIS is a highly religious organisation. The life or their membrer are dicted by, and don't want to see this is make a big misinterpretation oft what they are, why they born and what they want. ISIS is the most devout of Islam countries. Which makes sense since the raison d'etre for ISIS is to create a caliphate among the sea of hypocritical muslim countries. For example, people caught smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol will face harsh punishment such as death in ISIS., and this rule applies to the leadership unlike in countries like Saudi Arabia, where you hear of princes going clubbing in the US. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2860615/ISIS-cracks-cigarettes-alcohol-Extraordinary-pictures-emerge-hardline-jihadists-piling-whisky-beer-tobacco-bonfire.html
The real raison d'etre of ISIS is to fight Chiite, and made Irak and Syria a Sunnit country, and also give power at Qatar versus Arabi Saoudia in their local rivality
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On November 15 2015 03:15 Nebuchad wrote:
AngryMag, why are you under the impression that those quotes alter the point that I've just made? I haven't said there are no violent verses in the Quran, I said what's written in it doesn't matter. You're arguing that it does, and it's an unsustainable position. First because of my latest post: if what was written in it mattered, then we wouldn't have suicide bombings, as suicide is forbidden, we wouldn't have 9/11, as aggressive warfare is forbidden, we wouldn't have death for apostasy, as there is no compulsion in religion... Second, because that's just not really possible. There are too many contradictions in it (as in any holy book), and as such, you can't be a "literalist", you can't follow everything.
Well I guess the islamic world must be sadly mistaken then:
In Iran you get life in prison or death for apostasy.
Here we have a fatwa from Azhar university from september 23rd 1978. Question was whether a muslim can convert to christian faith if he marries a christian woman. Answer from the university was this:
This man has committed apostasy; he must be given a chance to repent and if he does not then he must be killed according to Shariah. As far as his children are concerned, as long as they are children they are considered Muslim, but after they reach the age of puberty, then if they remain with Islam they are Muslim, but if they leave Islam and they do not repent they must be killed…”*
Here is the link to the arabic document
http://formermuslimsunited.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Rechtsgutachten_betr_Apostasie_im_Islam.jpg
This wasn't some random guy spouting that nonsense but an official body of an islamic university
In Malaysia leaving Islam is not legally possible anymore, a little trick to avoid killing apostates as apostasy isn't officially possible anymore.
In Lybia apostasy was officially punished with the loss of the lybian citizenship.
In Sudan some pregnant woman got sentenced to death and caning last year for apostasy.
I don't care how you dress that up. Fact is we have death penalty for apostasy in the islamic world, we have 10 000's of suicide bombings throughout the islamic world in the last 15 years and we have groups with 100 000 armed members worldwide who fight against anything not 110% muslim who get supported by millions of muslims worldwide in their armed struggle. You cannot tell me that this wouldn't happen if they just followed islam, islam is not the cure but a big part of the problem.
BTW the current super idiot al Baghdadi even has a phd in islamic theology from the university of Baghdad, his interpretation seems to differ drastically from yours.
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On November 15 2015 03:27 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:25 damoonwolf wrote:On November 15 2015 03:19 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 03:15 damoonwolf wrote:On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. You're wrong. According to different former member is ISIS who come back in europe. Their day in ISIS was about training fight, pray and read Qoran. Some of them said ISIS was too religious for them. Than they had go for fight and no for pass the half or their time to pray and read Qoran. Despite a idea well spread in north america, ISIS is a highly religious organisation. The life or their membrer are dicted by, and don't want to see this is make a big misinterpretation oft what they are, why they born and what they want. This is why there is no end to this argument. No matter what I say or how much evidence I provide, you still cling to your bigoted beliefs, claiming that what I am saying is incorrect but whatever you say or bring to the table proving Islam is bad is perfectly reasonable and true. Muslims can't win in a debate that isn't even a debate, because no matter what we say, it won't change your blind opinion on the matter. You know more how is the life in ISIS than their former member? You have no argument exept repeat what you think. I quote a based ISIS source you just quote yourself, and it's me or orther people who are blind? Dat joke you are. ISIS will do anything to promote their campaign of the West vs Muslims, if you honestly want to kid yourself by believing anything they tell you, than I don't know what to say to you.
I hoped you will had a real argumentthis time, but all you have it's say me "you are a kid"... How naive i can be sometime...
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On November 15 2015 03:23 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:13 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Guys, we're really venturing onto dangerous ground... I agree. I think the thread is beginning to derail. Please remember to follow the thread specific mod note.
You don't think Islam's impact on the attack is relevant? What if it's possible that there is something to blame for the attack? We're supposed to just say "But I'm tolerant" and pat ourselves on the back?
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Canada13402 Posts
On November 15 2015 03:28 Painmaker wrote:
We can argue about Islam all day but first I suggest we take a moment and remember how the Islamic State was an US creation just like Al Qaeda was.
Thats not what this thread is about. This is not the time to debate the political/ideological/religious impacts on wars and terrorism in today's world.
To be honest, these things boil down to complex geopolitics and no amount of debate from us will ever make a difference there. The best we can do is try to vote for intelligent people to obtain power in our respective countries, and hope that they make good decisions because thats what happens on the global stage.
Discussing racism/religion/refugees/etc will not make a difference to the people of France, Paris, or the victims of these horrendous attacks.
Not even my condolensces are enough. But this thread, is about showing support to those who may have lost a loved one, or been injured. This thread is about sharing news and developments about this issue.
This thread is not about geopolitics. I don't understand how this kind of thing always happens to these threads but we are not geopolitical experts on the middle east, France's history in regards to the horn of africa, or the history of religious extremism. So lets drop those discussions for the most part, and get this thread back on track.
On November 15 2015 03:32 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:23 ZeromuS wrote:On November 15 2015 03:13 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Guys, we're really venturing onto dangerous ground... I agree. I think the thread is beginning to derail. Please remember to follow the thread specific mod note. You don't think Islam's impact on the attack is relevant? What if it's possible that there is something to blame for the attack? We're supposed to just say "But I'm tolerant" and pat ourselves on the back?
Was there an impact? Yeah sure, that can't be denied. But its not an impact of Islam, its an impact of religious extremism but my opinion still holds that this is not what this thread is about. This thread is about news. ISIS claims responsibility? Thats news. We can't debate islam as a whole here, we can all talk about how terrible ISIS is though. You see what I am getting at? This thread is beginning to conflate Islam and muslims writ large with ISIS style religious extremism.
You can see how that is extremely alienating and problematic with regards to the muslim userbase on TL at the very least right? If we get into these discussions on religion we just alienate and spread anti-muslim sentiment and create a hostile environment for our users. Its the conflating of the two which becomes a problem, and it seems to have been happening a lot lately in the thread.
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Canada11431 Posts
On November 15 2015 03:28 Painmaker wrote:
We can argue about Islam all day but first I suggest we take a moment and remember how the Islamic State was an US creation just like Al Qaeda was.
Eh. You could argue it's a proximate cause, but not necessarily the ultimate cause.
But for all this talk about Muslims and ISIS, do we actually know they were the actors involved? The last I am seeing on CBC is the 7/8 of the bodies are currently unidentified (bomb explosions and all that). Or have we gone from figuring probable actors to figuring out the causes that led to these unidentified attackers to make their assault?
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On November 15 2015 03:26 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:19 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 03:15 damoonwolf wrote:On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote:On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 15 2015 00:22 Jibba wrote:
I know this is the thread for Paris but I think people should also know that ISIS set off two bombs in Beirut yesterday, killing 40+ and wounding 200+.
I don't think that should go ignored by westerners (even though I'm sure it will be.) Both countries need support. Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. You're wrong. According to different former member is ISIS who come back in europe. Their day in ISIS was about training fight, pray and read Qoran. Some of them said ISIS was too religious for them. Than they had go for fight and no for pass the half or their time to pray and read Qoran. Despite a idea well spread in north america, ISIS is a highly religious organisation. The life or their membrer are dicted by, and don't want to see this is make a big misinterpretation oft what they are, why they born and what they want. This is why there is no end to this argument. No matter what I say or how much evidence I provide, you still cling to your bigoted beliefs, claiming that what I am saying is incorrect but whatever you say or bring to the table proving Islam is bad is perfectly reasonable and true. Muslims can't win in a debate that isn't even a debate, because no matter what we say, it won't change your blind opinion on the matter. Muslims can't win in a debate because they avoid all debate by accusing anyone who'd criticize them of being bigoted and racist. It's literally impossible to argue against you. It's impossible to argue against your narrow understanding of Islam which completely excludes anything you personally don't like. It's pointless because your rejection of the bad parts of Islam doesn't change the fact that they exist, but so many people act like the disconnect is absolute. It isn't. The fact that there are bigoted people who criticize your religion doesn't mean that the ideology as a whole cannot be discussed. Sorry if it comes off as harsh by the way, I just think it's frustrating that there are these social matters to discuss but we can't because the debate is muddied by angry people on both sides who just have an agenda.
Your wrong and I will tell you why, you dont present someone with the idea that a religion needs reform or some sort of evolution by telling them that their are "bad parts" in it. As an outsider with little to no knowledge of religion in general (except perhaps any faith you might have grown up with) let alone Islam I can assure you that when you tell someone that ISIS did this and therefore it is a bad part of your religion you need to reform them you arent making a very good case.
Its like me telling white people that White supremacists and right wing nutjobs are the bad part of white people and we should call them terrorists and talk about it. After all they have killed more north americans than ISIS has. ISIS mostly kills Muslims.
Then again, I dont know about the subject so it would be stupid coming from me so even if thats true I wont sit here without the requisite information do some googling, or in Angry Mags case, google anti muslim websites.
This thread is not debating the merits and demerits of religion in general or Islam in particular, but obviously its easy to shit or religion and then listen to people argue back at you about how all bad Muslims are sponsored by or created by western powers in cahoots with the Saudi's.
Its the same discussion the same narrative and the same back and forth. This is not the place for it. This is for people to talk about the events of last evening whether it be on condemnation, support or updates.
Thank you for your frustration.
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AngryMag: I mean if you're going to make zero effort to understand what I write I'm not sure what else I should do. Again, none of this alters the point I've made. It even furthers it.
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United States43618 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:51 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 02:19 Mohdoo wrote:
I hope Merkel's ridiculous dreams for how europe handles refugees get beaten into the ground after this. I think it's safe to say that her opposition has been spectacularly vindicated by this attack.
If the opposition were claiming that letting in refugees was letting in terrorism then how would they be vindicated by an attack committed by domestic French terrorists using weapons smuggled from the Balkans conflict? Assuming that that is how it happened. I mean obviously if Syrian refugees got off a boat, into a car to Paris and shot it up then I'll concede your point.
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On November 15 2015 03:36 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:28 Painmaker wrote:
We can argue about Islam all day but first I suggest we take a moment and remember how the Islamic State was an US creation just like Al Qaeda was. Eh. You could argue it's a proximate cause, but not necessarily the ultimate cause. But for all this talk about Muslims and ISIS, do we actually know they were the actors involved? The last I am seeing on CBC is the 7/8 of the bodies are currently unidentified (bomb explosions and all that). Or have we gone from figuring probable actors to figuring out the causes that led to these unidentified attackers to make their assault?
Well Hollande says so and the islamic state seems to say so, too.
I guess Hollande's political instincts would prevent him from saying something like that if he wasn't sure. Having to correct himself in that regard in a week or so could certainly cost him politically.
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On November 14 2015 21:26 HeatEXTEND wrote:
Anyone remember France jumping at the first opportunity to start unloading on Libya ?
No ?
Oh well.
I'm guessing you're saying that the football fans deserved to die?
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Canada11431 Posts
On November 15 2015 03:41 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 03:36 Falling wrote:On November 15 2015 03:28 Painmaker wrote:
We can argue about Islam all day but first I suggest we take a moment and remember how the Islamic State was an US creation just like Al Qaeda was. Eh. You could argue it's a proximate cause, but not necessarily the ultimate cause. But for all this talk about Muslims and ISIS, do we actually know they were the actors involved? The last I am seeing on CBC is the 7/8 of the bodies are currently unidentified (bomb explosions and all that). Or have we gone from figuring probable actors to figuring out the causes that led to these unidentified attackers to make their assault? Well Hollande says so and the islamic state seems to say so, too. I guess Hollande's political instincts would prevent him from saying something like that if he wasn't sure. Having to correct himself in that regard in a week or so could certainly cost him politically.
I would prefer to have it confirmed outside speculating on a politician's motivation to say this or that thing.
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EPT
