EPTShootings and Casualties in Central Paris - Page 56
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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15741 Posts
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote: For further evidence of this, people should look up accounts of Muslims capture by ISIS and the number of Muslims killed by ISIS. Its not about being Muslim for ISIS, it about controlling people through violence. So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12400 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. Exactly right. Islam is an ideology, it can be used to do and justify anything. As such, you need a more specific term in order to describe the people that you target, which is, people who read islam in a murderous and dangerous way. Luckily enough, that term exists. It's fundamentalism. | ||
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. I'll think about ur wise words next time I'lI hear about a priest accused of child abuse. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
You can't radicalize people with jobs, hobbies and a warm place to stay, because those people don't have a reason to shoot shit up. In Europe, marginalized white kids won't become jihadists but instead neonazis. Whatever offers a purpose and a community. In the US, are school shooters Muslim? I'm pretty sure most of them are self-professed atheists. Organized religion isn't faultless, certainly, but it's not the core problem behind terrorism or international violence, and there also isn't much difference between its various manifestations. To say Christians are "peaceful" is very ironic. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. I am saying that the fact that they identify as Muslim is not the cause of them being violent and horrible. It is just one of the many things people rally around to be terrible people. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:19 Mohdoo wrote: I hope Merkel's ridiculous dreams for how europe handles refugees get beaten into the ground after this. What does this have to do with refugees? I do however realise that people like you will link this situation to the refugee situation... Its pretty sad what fear can do to people. | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:28 Furikawari wrote: I'll think about ur wise words next time I'lI hear about a priest accused of child abuse. There is a slight difference. As far as I am aware the bible doesn't mandate molesting children but the koran mandates fighting against nonbelievers, gays, jews, apostates and various other groups numerous times. Still nobody with a brain can deny that the church protected cuplrits of child abuse and prevented a full scale clear up from happening but it is not mandated in the holy book. We can see fighting against nonbelievers, slave trade and all that shit in the old testament. Difference is that political christianity and its influence over people got destroyed some centuries ago while political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in Egypt in the 50's. But let's be cultural relativists instead until the next religiously motivated massacre. See you guys in the thread about the next attack in Europe. | ||
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Mikku
Czech Republic58 Posts
On November 15 2015 01:45 Cricketer12 wrote: Why would it be known by westerners, the vast majority if murders arent even caused by terrorists who claim to be Muslim, but the media paints the picture it wants to paint, and right now that picture is that Islam needs to go. ISIS could not be more "unIslamic". Everything they do and dont do goes against Islamic teachings. Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. | ||
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:24 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: So you say ISIS are not true muslims, while ISIS say that the muslims they kill are not true muslims. where does that leave us? the fact is that there is no 'true islam'. islam is what muslims do. when a person who identifies as muslim commits violence explicitly in the name of islam, we have no choice but to take their word for it. What it means to practice Islam is clearly contested (see: Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Kurds). So in that sense, you're right (unless you were being sarcastic?), there's no one unified "Islam" we can point to as definitely the "true" Islam. But doesn't that mean that someone who commits violence explicitly in the name of Islam must be somewhat confused? Clearly, they think they're following "true" Islam. But why should we take their word for it? I'd be inclined, based on the first part of what you said, to do exactly the opposite. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15741 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:32 Kickboxer wrote: You can't radicalize people with jobs, hobbies and a warm place to stay, because those people don't have a reason to shoot shit up. In Europe, marginalized white kids won't become jihadists but instead neonazis. Whatever offers a purpose and a community. This is 100% wrong. Are you not familiar with how many Europeans have been recruited into ISIS? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12400 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:37 AngryMag wrote: There is a slight difference. As far as I am aware the bible doesn't mandate molesting children but the koran mandates fighting against nonbelievers, gays, jews, apostates and various other groups numerous times. Still nobody with a brain can deny that the church protected cuplrits of child abuse and prevented a full scale clear up from happening but it is not mandated in the holy book. We can see fighting against nonbelievers, slave trade and all that shit in the old testament. Difference is that political christianity and its influence over people got destroyed some centuries ago while political islam is on the rise since the reawakening in Egypt in the 50's. But let's be cultural relativists instead until the next religiously motivated massacre. See you guys in the thread about the next attack in Europe. Luckily enough, the Quran also forbids suicide (even in times of war), aggressive warfare, and attacking other people of the book, so I guess we're completely safe because what's written in this book completely matters. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13991 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:19 Mohdoo wrote: I hope Merkel's ridiculous dreams for how europe handles refugees get beaten into the ground after this. Dont you fucking get it, thats exactly what the basterds who did this want. YOU ARE PLAYING RIGHT INTO THEIR FUCKING HANDS. | ||
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jubil
United States2602 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:19 Mohdoo wrote: I hope Merkel's ridiculous dreams for how europe handles refugees get beaten into the ground after this. I think it's safe to say that her opposition has been spectacularly vindicated by this attack. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13991 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote: Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. How is that the case, if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. Jihad doesnt mean blow yourself up and kill nonbelievers it means struggle. Struggle to improve oneself. If I recall their were only 4 recorded stonings in history of early Muslim history and all of them were requested by the one who committed the act (and I dont think stonings are acceptable in the present era but thats a whole other discussion). Again people make claims about what 7th century muslims did but from what I can see you are either fabricating those or taking them out of context. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5757 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:40 RuiBarbO wrote: What it means to practice Islam is clearly contested (see: Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Kurds). So in that sense, you're right (unless you were being sarcastic?), there's no one unified "Islam" we can point to as definitely the "true" Islam. But doesn't that mean that someone who commits violence explicitly in the name of Islam must be somewhat confused? Clearly, they think they're following "true" Islam. But why should we take their word for it? I'd be inclined, based on the first part of what you said, to do exactly the opposite. Perhaps because that is what the founders of Islam did, with Muhammad as the prime example? | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13991 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:39 Mikku wrote: Cricketer, have you ever actually read Quran and Sunnah? What ISIS do is exactly what Muhammad, Ali, Abu And another did. And yes I have, this Quran takes an entire chapter to talk about the mercy of God. This sunnah tells me to fear Allah and to ensure my neighbors go to sleep on a full stomach before I eat my own dinner. Islam teaches me to seek knowledge. I am an Environmental Science major because that is what I love and sustaining the environment is recommended in Islam. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:52 Cricketer12 wrote: How is that the case, if I recited a passage of the bible to an ISIS member and told him it was the Quran he would eat it up because these guys know nothing about the religion they use. They dont pray or fast or got to pilgramige because if they did they wouldnt be doing what they do. Islam only allows violence in self defense. Jihad doesnt mean blow yourself up and kill nonbelievers it means struggle. Struggle to improve oneself. If I recall their were only 4 recorded stonings in history of early Muslim history and all of them were requested by the one who committed the act (and I dont think stonings are acceptable in the present era but thats a whole other discussion). Again people make claims about what 7th century muslims did but from what I can see you are either fabricating those or taking them out of context. The unfortunately reality is that there is a substantial number of Muslims (millions) who strictly disagree with your interpretation of your faith. And you clearly don't know your history very well if you don't know how Islam spread so quickly in the first century of its existence. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13991 Posts
On November 15 2015 02:54 maybenexttime wrote: Perhaps because that is what the founders of Islam did, with Muhammad as the prime example? So there is justification for counterattacks to terrorist attacks but not self defense? | ||
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