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On June 30 2015 12:38 Djzapz wrote:
It's just additional damning evidence. And this conversation is getting silly now, I don't think that the arguments that the confederate flag has other meanings are actually holding any water whatsoever.
First time I ever saw it was probably either Dukes of Hazzard parodies (don't think I ever saw the real series) or Civil War reenactments in cartoons (Simpsons, probably).
Of course, what I see and experience in Canada is mostly irrelevant, but there are plenty of ways to get exposed to a Confederate flag without any racial connotations at all.
On June 30 2015 12:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 12:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 30 2015 12:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 12:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 30 2015 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 11:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 30 2015 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 10:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 30 2015 10:48 GreenHorizons wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4rFazba.jpg) The Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan’s Pelham, North Carolina, chapter have reserved the Statehouse Grounds in South Carolina for a rally next month. James Spears, the Great Titan of the chapter, said the group would be rallying to protest “the Confederate flag being took down for all the wrong reasons.” “It’s part of white people’s culture,” he added. This is what comes to mind when I see people defending the flag and the 'pride' argument. Wouldn't be the first time the KKK's co-opted a symbol. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +If those are supposed to be the same thing they did a pretty crappy job of appropriating, nothing new for those bums though. Basically all of the Klu Klux Klan's symbols are appropriated. The aforementioned Capirote, the obvious wooden cross, the red cross of the Crusaders... Safe to say that the KKK is only recognizable in North America (and not even all of it), and the rest of the world will either have no clue who they are, or will think they're representing something else that's entirely innocuous. The point being what? That just because the KKK uses it doesn't make it a ubiquitously racist symbol. Well it's not just the KKK, and you do realize the KKK weren't just random folks either. A lot of them were politicians, powerful businessmen, and law enforcement? If people in Afghanistan don't know the flag is offensive and racist doesn't really mean anything. I don't even understand the point of establishing that "That just because the KKK uses it doesn't make it a ubiquitously racist symbol."? The point is that saying "if you defend the confederate flag in any way I think you're KKK" is stupid. I probably agree with what you post more often than not, but most of your posts are also extremely closed-minded when it comes to discourse. I think you are missing my point. What I was saying is that I believe them about as much as I believe the KKK. Not that what they are saying isn't true, just it's obvious that it's disingenuous.
"I think you're all lying" is just as closed-minded for discourse.
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On June 30 2015 12:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 12:38 Djzapz wrote:
It's just additional damning evidence. And this conversation is getting silly now, I don't think that the arguments that the confederate flag has other meanings are actually holding any water whatsoever. First time I ever saw it was probably either Dukes of Hazzard parodies (don't think I ever saw the real series) or Civil War reenactments in cartoons (Simpsons, probably). Of course, what I see and experience in Canada is mostly irrelevant, but there are plenty of ways to get exposed to a Confederate flag without any racial connotations at all. Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 12:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 12:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 30 2015 12:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 12:04 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 30 2015 11:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 11:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 30 2015 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 10:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 30 2015 10:48 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] sourceThis is what comes to mind when I see people defending the flag and the 'pride' argument. Wouldn't be the first time the KKK's co-opted a symbol. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +If those are supposed to be the same thing they did a pretty crappy job of appropriating, nothing new for those bums though. Basically all of the Klu Klux Klan's symbols are appropriated. The aforementioned Capirote, the obvious wooden cross, the red cross of the Crusaders... Safe to say that the KKK is only recognizable in North America (and not even all of it), and the rest of the world will either have no clue who they are, or will think they're representing something else that's entirely innocuous. The point being what? That just because the KKK uses it doesn't make it a ubiquitously racist symbol. Well it's not just the KKK, and you do realize the KKK weren't just random folks either. A lot of them were politicians, powerful businessmen, and law enforcement? If people in Afghanistan don't know the flag is offensive and racist doesn't really mean anything. I don't even understand the point of establishing that "That just because the KKK uses it doesn't make it a ubiquitously racist symbol."? The point is that saying "if you defend the confederate flag in any way I think you're KKK" is stupid. I probably agree with what you post more often than not, but most of your posts are also extremely closed-minded when it comes to discourse. I think you are missing my point. What I was saying is that I believe them about as much as I believe the KKK. Not that what they are saying isn't true, just it's obvious that it's disingenuous. "I think you're all lying" is just as closed-minded for discourse.
I didn't say they are lying.
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Generally speaking, if you find yourself to be on the same side of an argument as the Ku Klux Klan, that is usually a pretty good indicator that you should reevaluate that position carefully.
Also, i found the title "The Great Titan of the chapter" to be greatly amusing.
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I swear, almost anything John Oliver talks about on Last Week Tonight instantly trends and the media frenzy ensues and people get behind it. God I love John Oliver and his team at Last Week Tonight.
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On June 30 2015 14:51 Simberto wrote:
Generally speaking, if you find yourself to be on the same side of an argument as the Ku Klux Klan, that is usually a pretty good indicator that you should reevaluate that position carefully.
Also, i found the title "The Great Titan of the chapter" to be greatly amusing.
Generally speaking, judging something by the worst of its proponents doesn't go very far either.
But my opinion still isn't that the Confederate Flag is good or anything. I just think people are pushing the value of it to an extreme, whether it's the ones clinging to it as their identity or the ones treating it as a purely racist symbol, are being a bit absurd about everything.
And people seem to forget that the Civil War wasn't racists versus liberators, it was racists versus greater racists. Doesn't do much good to shift all the blame to one side.
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On June 30 2015 15:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 14:51 Simberto wrote:
Generally speaking, if you find yourself to be on the same side of an argument as the Ku Klux Klan, that is usually a pretty good indicator that you should reevaluate that position carefully.
Also, i found the title "The Great Titan of the chapter" to be greatly amusing. Generally speaking, judging something by the worst of its proponents doesn't go very far either. But my opinion still isn't that the Confederate Flag is good or anything. I just think people are pushing the value of it to an extreme, whether it's the ones clinging to it as their identity or the ones treating it as a purely racist symbol, are being a bit absurd about everything. And people seem to forget that the Civil War wasn't racists versus liberators, it was racists versus greater racists. Doesn't do much good to shift all the blame to one side.
There's a meaningful difference between racists and slaveholders. The former are assholes. The latter are human rights violators.
And, for what it's worth, the US was fighting (eventually) to liberate the slaves. You don't get to pass over that just because a lot of its citizens were racist.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On June 30 2015 15:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Generally speaking, judging something by the worst of its proponents doesn't go very far either.
But my opinion still isn't that the Confederate Flag is good or anything. I just think people are pushing the value of it to an extreme, whether it's the ones clinging to it as their identity or the ones treating it as a purely racist symbol, are being a bit absurd about everything.
And people seem to forget that the Civil War wasn't racists versus liberators, it was racists versus greater racists. Doesn't do much good to shift all the blame to one side.
If it was racists vs liberators, the Emancipation Proclamation wouldn't have waited until the second half of the second year of Civil War.
South States, for all their blindness to the inhumanity of slavery, acted in defending their way of life, the plantation society. That way of life was based on the back of slave labour of the African Americans. Those states withdrew from the imperfect union that was the US Constitution, which had its own Faustian bargain in the three-fifth of man clause.
There were three angles of secession. Social in that abolition would tear apart Southern plantation society. Economic in that abolition would ruin Southern agrarian economy by robbing it of its labour. Political in that the union was no longer a fair exchange where the country as a whole recognized the institution of slaver in exchange for tariffs and other taxes that fell disproportionately on export agrarian economies.
While the Southern States will spout on about slavery, it didn't seem to trouble the Federal Government & the North, which instead fought to preserve the Union. When the first freeing of slaves happened, the Emancipation Proclamation was punitive against rebellious states and only applied to the Confederacy. It did not apply to the three border states still in the Union. In the first half of the war, the Civil War had all the appearances of Federal Government attempting to impose its will on member states that wanted nothing to do with it. That looks more like oppression than liberation. Only in the latter portion did we get anything positive in that some slaves were finally freed. But the Civil War was a bloody war with half a million dead and first instance of total war and war crimes. Classroom history sanitizes all of these rough edges, but the Federals were hardly saints.
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The US civil war was in no way the first instance of war crimes. The things we now call war crimes have been a part of war since war existed.
And it could also be argued that the Napoleonic wars were pretty total wars, too.
None of this diminishes the fact that the civil war was a very horrible thing.
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This whole thing is laughably outrageous. As both a Southerner and a Cherokee, it just makes me chuckle that so many knuckleheads will blithely condemn the Battle Flag, but not the American Flag, which has seen and stood for, vast more atrocities and human rights violations. The USG is one of the most destructive forces the modern world has seen, but you yokels will defend that one to death.
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On June 26 2015 04:09 ZasZ. wrote:
I cannot think of any country in the world that proudly displays symbols associated with a rebellious faction 150 years after that faction was put down.
You'd be surprised. Here in Europe there are a lot of small countries / nations that were absorbed, conquered, or just merged into bigger states, but now they are all displaying their "historic heritage" in order to get some political benefits.
Here in Spain we have the Basque country and Catalonia, although their situation is very different.
In Catalonia, their "diada" or "national day" is the 11th September, and they remember when the Spanish army conquered Barcelona 300 years ago because Catalonia sided with the losers in the Spanish secesion wars, after Charles II died without sons.
So yeah, The States are a young country, but in the "good old Europe" we are used to those things...
Concerning the Flag, as I can see it from outside the states, I think everyone has the freedom to choose what to sell and what not. I don't agree with the historical games banning, but other than that, I think it is ok.
BUT, I still think this is a smoke screen to avoid yet another debate over the gun licenses in the US.
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On June 30 2015 12:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Of course, what I see and experience in Canada is mostly irrelevant, but there are plenty of ways to get exposed to a Confederate flag without any racial connotations at all.
In a museum is the only one I can think. If you fly the flag outside of a public building, especially in the south, it's absolutely unavoidable, the racial connotation is there and it's real. To say it isn't is willful ignorance.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On June 30 2015 17:12 Simberto wrote:
The US civil war was in no way the first instance of war crimes. The things we now call war crimes have been a part of war since war existed.
And it could also be argued that the Napoleonic wars were pretty total wars, too.
None of this diminishes the fact that the civil war was a very horrible thing.
I stand corrected. I had planned to qualify it as first war crimes by US, but didn't put it in my post. Yet now, I'm not too certain of that either. It was the first case of atrocities on a mass scale by the US, and then the surviving war fighters of the Civil War promptly took it out on the various "native americans" for the following two decades.
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On June 30 2015 23:53 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 17:12 Simberto wrote:
The US civil war was in no way the first instance of war crimes. The things we now call war crimes have been a part of war since war existed.
And it could also be argued that the Napoleonic wars were pretty total wars, too.
None of this diminishes the fact that the civil war was a very horrible thing. I stand corrected. I had planned to qualify it as first war crimes by US, but didn't put it in my post. Yet now, I'm not too certain of that either. It was the first case of atrocities on a mass scale by the US, and then the surviving war fighters of the Civil War promptly took it out on the various "native americans" for the following two decades.
Basically erradicating all the native americans doesn't count as warcrime or does it not count as US crime?
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On July 01 2015 00:02 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:53 TanGeng wrote:On June 30 2015 17:12 Simberto wrote:
The US civil war was in no way the first instance of war crimes. The things we now call war crimes have been a part of war since war existed.
And it could also be argued that the Napoleonic wars were pretty total wars, too.
None of this diminishes the fact that the civil war was a very horrible thing. I stand corrected. I had planned to qualify it as first war crimes by US, but didn't put it in my post. Yet now, I'm not too certain of that either. It was the first case of atrocities on a mass scale by the US, and then the surviving war fighters of the Civil War promptly took it out on the various "native americans" for the following two decades. Basically erradicating all the native americans doesn't count as warcrime or does it not count as US crime?
People tend to forget about that and even today native Americans are treated like subhumans even by otherwise progressive people. No one thinks that part of history really matters, because unlike other groups who have managed to lobby hard politically to have their history recognized, the native Americans don't have that capability. Their small numbers (since genocide was very effective) prevents them from having a voice in the way the black community does.
Basically the importance of historical events of this kind is largely determined by how loud the remaining people who still care are.
On June 30 2015 17:52 Wegandi wrote:
This whole thing is laughably outrageous. As both a Southerner and a Cherokee, it just makes me chuckle that so many knuckleheads will blithely condemn the Battle Flag, but not the American Flag, which has seen and stood for, vast more atrocities and human rights violations. The USG is one of the most destructive forces the modern world has seen, but you yokels will defend that one to death.
Definitely won't defend the US at all, but at least it's still a thing. If you fly the flag of a defunct political entity remembered by the world as a bunch of people who tried to defend their right to own slaves and got crushed, you're flying those ideals, whereas the people who fly the US flag are just doing what every country does, they exist despite their shortcomings. And the US is not the only country which has committed atrocities. At some point in every current country's history there's some people who have won and others who have lost everything in the process.
The Queen of England is the descendant of the greatest family of murderers. Canada is built on the graves of natives. Europe is the cumulative result of hundreds of wars. People fly those flags because of what the flags represent now. Not what they (or their predecessors) represented 150 years prior.
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On July 01 2015 00:25 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 00:02 Velr wrote:On June 30 2015 23:53 TanGeng wrote:On June 30 2015 17:12 Simberto wrote:
The US civil war was in no way the first instance of war crimes. The things we now call war crimes have been a part of war since war existed.
And it could also be argued that the Napoleonic wars were pretty total wars, too.
None of this diminishes the fact that the civil war was a very horrible thing. I stand corrected. I had planned to qualify it as first war crimes by US, but didn't put it in my post. Yet now, I'm not too certain of that either. It was the first case of atrocities on a mass scale by the US, and then the surviving war fighters of the Civil War promptly took it out on the various "native americans" for the following two decades. Basically erradicating all the native americans doesn't count as warcrime or does it not count as US crime? People tend to forget about that and even today native Americans are treated like subhumans even by otherwise progressive people. No one thinks that part of history really matters, because unlike other groups who have managed to lobby hard politically to have their history recognized, the native Americans don't have that capability. Their small numbers (since genocide was very effective) prevents them from having a voice in the way the black community does. Basically the importance of historical events of this kind is largely determined by how loud the remaining people who still care are.
Nope, but most of that happened after the civil war.
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On June 30 2015 22:45 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 12:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Of course, what I see and experience in Canada is mostly irrelevant, but there are plenty of ways to get exposed to a Confederate flag without any racial connotations at all. In a museum is the only one I can think. If you fly the flag outside of a public building, especially in the south, it's absolutely unavoidable, the racial connotation is there and it's real. To say it isn't is willful ignorance.
If you are in Canada i don't know how you can speak on the meaning of the flag here in the south to be honest.
See them flown pretty much everywhere here and people don't think shit about it, friend has a giant one in his house and is pretty known for that and regardless no colored people(dont want to just say blacks) say or give a shit. Very few of the black people i know actually give a fuck about the flag being up down or anything like that, and the few that do are the ones in the same mindset as feminists are for the most part and it is retarded. Aka we want everything equal except when it works in our favor, here atleast that being Gov't assistance and shit like that
But you know what they say, If the south woulda won we'da had it made after all.
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On July 01 2015 00:49 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 22:45 Djzapz wrote:On June 30 2015 12:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Of course, what I see and experience in Canada is mostly irrelevant, but there are plenty of ways to get exposed to a Confederate flag without any racial connotations at all. In a museum is the only one I can think. If you fly the flag outside of a public building, especially in the south, it's absolutely unavoidable, the racial connotation is there and it's real. To say it isn't is willful ignorance. If you are in Canada i don't know how you can speak on the meaning of the flag here in the south to be honest. See them flown pretty much everywhere here and people don't think shit about it, friend has a giant one in his house and is pretty known for that and regardless no colored people(dont want to just say blacks) say or give a shit. Very few of the black people i know actually give a fuck about the flag being up down or anything like that, and the few that do preach that black rights are still violated blah blah blah, when even here in a lot of cases people feel they have it better than most lower class whites honestly. Gov't assistance comes to them a lot easier than it does to whites who are in worse shape and it is ridiculous sometimes honestly. But you know what they say, If the south woulda won we'da had it made after all.
I understand that I can't really completely grasp the day-to-day meaning of the flag in the south, but then again most important of your post, to my eye, is:
See them flown pretty much everywhere here and people don't think shit about it
People don't think about it, arb. Because it's hard. Except what might happen if people started to think about it in the south, even though thinking is hard? Now you might see things that you didn't see before.
You're right, I can't know what it's like in the south, but don't expect anyone to buy the argument that an external eye can't think anything new, especially when in your post you yourself say that people don't think about it. People not thinking is the problem. We brought it up before, I think I mentioned it in one of my posts. Willful ignorance. And to much of the world that seems to be a common theme in the south. "It's just a big fucking flag!" Yeah ok. And I'm a Chinese aviator.
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On July 01 2015 00:53 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 00:49 arb wrote:On June 30 2015 22:45 Djzapz wrote:On June 30 2015 12:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Of course, what I see and experience in Canada is mostly irrelevant, but there are plenty of ways to get exposed to a Confederate flag without any racial connotations at all. In a museum is the only one I can think. If you fly the flag outside of a public building, especially in the south, it's absolutely unavoidable, the racial connotation is there and it's real. To say it isn't is willful ignorance. If you are in Canada i don't know how you can speak on the meaning of the flag here in the south to be honest. See them flown pretty much everywhere here and people don't think shit about it, friend has a giant one in his house and is pretty known for that and regardless no colored people(dont want to just say blacks) say or give a shit. Very few of the black people i know actually give a fuck about the flag being up down or anything like that, and the few that do preach that black rights are still violated blah blah blah, when even here in a lot of cases people feel they have it better than most lower class whites honestly. Gov't assistance comes to them a lot easier than it does to whites who are in worse shape and it is ridiculous sometimes honestly. But you know what they say, If the south woulda won we'da had it made after all. I understand that I can't really completely grasp the day-to-day meaning of the flag in the south, but then again most important of your post, to my eye, is: See them flown pretty much everywhere here and people don't think shit about itPeople don't think about it, arb. Because it's hard. Except what might happen if people started to think about it in the south, even though thinking is hard? Now you might see things that you didn't see before.
By don't think about it i mean don't give a fuck. Like i said when i re-read my statement the ones who are up in arms about it are the same ones who think like hardcore feminists do.
Granted honestly i don't really care if its up or not, i feel like it is so ingrained in southern culture and is such a norm its pretty dumb to expect people not to be outraged over it.
I won't deny there is ignorant fucks out here who take it to the extreme, but the same can be said about everything. Theres plenty of people im sure who put it up cause it's like "I'm from the south and whats the biggest expression of this?" but i guess that can be replaced by a whole lot of things too.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On July 01 2015 00:02 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:53 TanGeng wrote:On June 30 2015 17:12 Simberto wrote:
The US civil war was in no way the first instance of war crimes. The things we now call war crimes have been a part of war since war existed.
And it could also be argued that the Napoleonic wars were pretty total wars, too.
None of this diminishes the fact that the civil war was a very horrible thing. I stand corrected. I had planned to qualify it as first war crimes by US, but didn't put it in my post. Yet now, I'm not too certain of that either. It was the first case of atrocities on a mass scale by the US, and then the surviving war fighters of the Civil War promptly took it out on the various "native americans" for the following two decades. Basically erradicating all the native americans doesn't count as warcrime or does it not count as US crime?
Are you pointing to some systematic crime against the tribes before Civil War? There was lots of small scale incidents and the War of 1812 involved multiple tribes, but the biggest blow came by the way of disease which often preceded direct contact. The really nastiness to tribes happened after the Civil War.
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On July 01 2015 00:55 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 00:53 Djzapz wrote:On July 01 2015 00:49 arb wrote:On June 30 2015 22:45 Djzapz wrote:On June 30 2015 12:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Of course, what I see and experience in Canada is mostly irrelevant, but there are plenty of ways to get exposed to a Confederate flag without any racial connotations at all. In a museum is the only one I can think. If you fly the flag outside of a public building, especially in the south, it's absolutely unavoidable, the racial connotation is there and it's real. To say it isn't is willful ignorance. If you are in Canada i don't know how you can speak on the meaning of the flag here in the south to be honest. See them flown pretty much everywhere here and people don't think shit about it, friend has a giant one in his house and is pretty known for that and regardless no colored people(dont want to just say blacks) say or give a shit. Very few of the black people i know actually give a fuck about the flag being up down or anything like that, and the few that do preach that black rights are still violated blah blah blah, when even here in a lot of cases people feel they have it better than most lower class whites honestly. Gov't assistance comes to them a lot easier than it does to whites who are in worse shape and it is ridiculous sometimes honestly. But you know what they say, If the south woulda won we'da had it made after all. I understand that I can't really completely grasp the day-to-day meaning of the flag in the south, but then again most important of your post, to my eye, is: See them flown pretty much everywhere here and people don't think shit about itPeople don't think about it, arb. Because it's hard. Except what might happen if people started to think about it in the south, even though thinking is hard? Now you might see things that you didn't see before. By don't think about it i mean don't give a fuck. Like i said when i re-read my statement the ones who are up in arms about it are the same ones who think like hardcore feminists do. Granted honestly i don't really care if its up or not, i feel like it is so ingrained in southern culture and is such a norm its pretty dumb to expect people not to be outraged over it.
I'm not so much outraged as I'm weirded out by it. Like, think about what it looks like to the rest of the world which already mocks Southern culture without really understanding it. I'm kind of one of them right, where when Alabama passes one of its insane nonsense insanely racist laws, I link the article to a friend and we laugh about it. "Haha, the American south". All fun and games.
Then we heard (and we frankly didn't know this), that some of those States themselves, not just rednecks, fly those flags. We're pretty amazed, frankly - and admittedly like I said we're largely ignorant of the southern culture. So we get to thinking, why would States fly that flag, when it embodies so much venom and filth?
So from reading around the only real defense it has is, it's part of our culture now. So what? I mean the only thing I can think of is that it's a really fucking stupid thing to have as part of your culture. A defeated insurrection type thing that defended ridiculous ideals... I understand that the south's thing is it don't care whut the rest of the world think bout you... but hell, that is weak defense.
People ain't think about it.
Please think about it. I mean, flags are inherently symbolic ffs -_-.
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