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On June 29 2015 23:56 B.I.G. wrote:
As a European I have to say -respectfully- that in my -humble- opinion Americans are a tad bit too concerned with political correctness.
To put it more bluntly: You are all a bunch of fine folks but when it comes to aforementioned political correctness you are all crazy.
I don't mean that in a "shaking head disapprovingly" way. Its just a cultural phenomena that seems so weird in a country that can be so harsh to it's citizens in other ways. I mean my country (Netherlands) with all their social laws and hugging all their inhabitants to death should be the one going out of their way to protect everyone's feelings yet you guys completely beat us in that regard.
Weird.
Its weird how areas with vastly different histories would view the subject differently. Its almost like we in the US have a very large population of people that were oppressed throughout the nation's history and are still struggling with the aftermath of that today.
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On June 29 2015 22:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 20:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 29 2015 15:13 Chocolate wrote:
I just want to say that I'm from the South and while I'm sure a lot of people that display the confederate flag do so for racist reasons, a lot of people have pride for the South and that flag is the best way to represent it. Out of curiosity, why is the Confederate flag the best way to represent your pride? I'm not a Southerner so I don't understand, but why would you want to use an icon of perpetual slavery and treason? Why does being a proud Southerner in the 21st century invoke the use of something from long ago that has so much baggage attached to it? Surely you're not proud of the Civil War? I can kind of see the idea. It's kind of like Quebec here in Canada, and being proud of being a colony that was conquered. But it's part of the culture and identity, part of Canada's identity, even with the issues that come with it (mostly the Separatists who became violent).
Just out of curiosity, are there groups of violent Separatists that exist even today? Because our issues with prejudice (especially black prejudice) here in America are still huge problems, even today. It's not *just* about the Civil War era, because that message of hate has existed over the past 150 years too.
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On June 30 2015 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 22:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 29 2015 20:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 29 2015 15:13 Chocolate wrote:
I just want to say that I'm from the South and while I'm sure a lot of people that display the confederate flag do so for racist reasons, a lot of people have pride for the South and that flag is the best way to represent it. Out of curiosity, why is the Confederate flag the best way to represent your pride? I'm not a Southerner so I don't understand, but why would you want to use an icon of perpetual slavery and treason? Why does being a proud Southerner in the 21st century invoke the use of something from long ago that has so much baggage attached to it? Surely you're not proud of the Civil War? I can kind of see the idea. It's kind of like Quebec here in Canada, and being proud of being a colony that was conquered. But it's part of the culture and identity, part of Canada's identity, even with the issues that come with it (mostly the Separatists who became violent). Just out of curiosity, are there groups of violent Separatists that exist even today? Because our issues with prejudice (especially black prejudice) here in America are still huge problems, even today. It's not *just* about the Civil War era, because that message of hate has existed over the past 150 years too.
Yeah I mean that woman took down the SC flag, and they just put it right back up. If they had the votes to actually take it down it would have probably just stayed down.
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On June 30 2015 00:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 23:56 B.I.G. wrote:
As a European I have to say -respectfully- that in my -humble- opinion Americans are a tad bit too concerned with political correctness.
To put it more bluntly: You are all a bunch of fine folks but when it comes to aforementioned political correctness you are all crazy.
I don't mean that in a "shaking head disapprovingly" way. Its just a cultural phenomena that seems so weird in a country that can be so harsh to it's citizens in other ways. I mean my country (Netherlands) with all their social laws and hugging all their inhabitants to death should be the one going out of their way to protect everyone's feelings yet you guys completely beat us in that regard.
Weird. Its weird how areas with vastly different histories would view the subject differently. Its almost like we in the US have a very large population of people that were oppressed throughout the nation's history and are still struggling with the aftermath of that today.
I think what he means is more like:
In europe we have laws that limit free speak and in general more laws that infringe on ones freedom (very broadly/generally speaking) but there is not that much public outcry when it actually comes to these sort of things.
It just seems kinda weird  .
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On June 29 2015 16:10 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 15:13 Chocolate wrote:
I just want to say that I'm from the South and while I'm sure a lot of people that display the confederate flag do so for racist reasons, a lot of people have pride for the South and that flag is the best way to represent it.
The colonial flag isn't offensive just because Americans were horrible to Native Americans in that time period It is to the Native Americans. Symbols mean different things to different people. If you want to take pride in a time period in which your region of the country tried to separate itself from the rest of the country over their right to have slaves, then you are permitted to do so, but understand that the rest of us are going to call you out on your bullshit, and we have no desire to see the government sponsor that behavior.
For the record I would never own anything with the confederate flag because I don't like the South very much and I think it's tacky, I'm just trying to point out a double standard.
On June 29 2015 20:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 15:13 Chocolate wrote:
I just want to say that I'm from the South and while I'm sure a lot of people that display the confederate flag do so for racist reasons, a lot of people have pride for the South and that flag is the best way to represent it. Out of curiosity, why is the Confederate flag the best way to represent your pride? I'm not a Southerner so I don't understand, but why would you want to use an icon of perpetual slavery and treason? Why does being a proud Southerner in the 21st century invoke the use of something from long ago that has so much baggage attached to it? Surely you're not proud of the Civil War?
Because it's the flag that has been used historically to represent the South. I can't even think of another symbol that represents the South very well.
On June 29 2015 23:01 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 15:13 Chocolate wrote:
I just want to say that I'm from the South and while I'm sure a lot of people that display the confederate flag do so for racist reasons, a lot of people have pride for the South and that flag is the best way to represent it.
The colonial flag isn't offensive just because Americans were horrible to Native Americans in that time period For these analogies to work, that flag (the Virginia Battle Flag) would have had to have been used for a lot more. It wasn't. It was only a battle flag. A flag used for a war that was fought almost exclusively to keep the institution of slavery alive. It wasn't a symbol of the South or the Confederacy in general. Then, when it was used post-war, it was used as a white supremacist symbol by the KKK and then pro-segregationists mid-20th century. That flag has a history of pure hate and discrimination. It is only recently that it became a "symbol of Southern pride". It is absolutely nothing like the majority of the flags out there that symbolize a wide range of things.
It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists.
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The argument falls apart when you look at the history of the flag and realize it only reappeared in the national consciousness in the 1950s after brown vs the board of education. The idea of it "representing the South" came about through the renewed opposition to being told what to do by the Federal Government in regards to the South's treatment of black people.
And I am sure there are a large number black people in the south that could tell us all about what the flag represents to them. And I bet they don’t line up with the whole “Southern Pride” angle.
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On June 30 2015 04:01 Chocolate wrote:
It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists.
As a Canadian, I find it difficult to have much respect for a people who live in a culture where you're encouraged to ignore symbolism to this extent. If a person flies the confederate flag, I feel justified in my low opinion of them. I mean it was the flag used by the people who wanted to defend their right to continue to own slaves, as you've said (BY NO MEANS AN HISTORICAL FACT TO GLOSS OVER), and they lost badly before being assimilated by a larger more prosperous industrialized people, and later at least partially caught up.
There are too many ways in which this flag represents a part of history for which people ought to be ashamed, and to continue using this, to my senses, speaks of incredible gullibility or the desire to forget about history. I don't think that someone who thinks critically would fly that flag. It's dumb pride at best, and full blown racism at worst.
And I'm not saying it should be illegal to fly it.
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On June 30 2015 04:10 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:01 Chocolate wrote:
It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists. As a Canadian, I find it difficult to have much respect for a people who live in a culture where you're encourage to ignore symbolism to this extent. If a person flies the confederate flag, I feel justified in my low opinion of them. I mean it was the flag used by the people who wanted to defend their right to continue to own slaves, as you've said (BY NO MEANS AN HISTORICAL FACT TO GLOSS OVER), and they lost badly before being assimilated by a larger more prosperous industrialized people, and later at least partially caught up. There are too many ways in which this flag represents a part of history for which people ought to be ashamed, and to continue using this, to my senses, speaks of incredible gullibility or the desire to forget about history. I don't think that someone who thinks critically would fly that flag. It's dumb pride at best, and full blown racism at worst. And I'm not saying it should be illegal to fly it.
I tend to agree with you I just want people to know that the intent behind displaying the flag is not always racism
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On June 30 2015 04:11 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:10 Djzapz wrote:On June 30 2015 04:01 Chocolate wrote:
It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists. As a Canadian, I find it difficult to have much respect for a people who live in a culture where you're encourage to ignore symbolism to this extent. If a person flies the confederate flag, I feel justified in my low opinion of them. I mean it was the flag used by the people who wanted to defend their right to continue to own slaves, as you've said (BY NO MEANS AN HISTORICAL FACT TO GLOSS OVER), and they lost badly before being assimilated by a larger more prosperous industrialized people, and later at least partially caught up. There are too many ways in which this flag represents a part of history for which people ought to be ashamed, and to continue using this, to my senses, speaks of incredible gullibility or the desire to forget about history. I don't think that someone who thinks critically would fly that flag. It's dumb pride at best, and full blown racism at worst. And I'm not saying it should be illegal to fly it. I tend to agree with you I just want people to know that the intent behind displaying the flag is not always racism
Ignorance is pretty much the only other reason.
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I've also heard that to many people, it's a symbol of resistance to the US federal government, but surely there are more appropriate ways of doing that. Gun nuts in the south really have this weird fantasy of taking up arms against Washington for various reasons.
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When they say resistance to the US federal government, they mean in relation to being forced to treat black people as equals. Its a critical part that is often left out.
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On June 30 2015 04:29 Plansix wrote:
When they say resistance to the US federal government, they mean in relation to being forced to treat black people as equals. Its a critical part that is often left out.
That's not even true, but I'm glad you've found a population that is politically correct to disparage.
On June 30 2015 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:11 Chocolate wrote:On June 30 2015 04:10 Djzapz wrote:On June 30 2015 04:01 Chocolate wrote:
It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists. As a Canadian, I find it difficult to have much respect for a people who live in a culture where you're encourage to ignore symbolism to this extent. If a person flies the confederate flag, I feel justified in my low opinion of them. I mean it was the flag used by the people who wanted to defend their right to continue to own slaves, as you've said (BY NO MEANS AN HISTORICAL FACT TO GLOSS OVER), and they lost badly before being assimilated by a larger more prosperous industrialized people, and later at least partially caught up. There are too many ways in which this flag represents a part of history for which people ought to be ashamed, and to continue using this, to my senses, speaks of incredible gullibility or the desire to forget about history. I don't think that someone who thinks critically would fly that flag. It's dumb pride at best, and full blown racism at worst. And I'm not saying it should be illegal to fly it. I tend to agree with you I just want people to know that the intent behind displaying the flag is not always racism Ignorance is pretty much the only other reason.
Not really. Everybody knows that the Civil War was a war mostly about slavery (yes, in my state and in many others they officially teach that it was about states rights but everyone knows the truth). The flag just represents more than slavery. I think being a black person from the pacific NW may make you see the flag in a different light form someone who lives in the South.
On June 30 2015 04:21 Djzapz wrote:
I've also heard that to many people, it's a symbol of resistance to the US federal government, but surely there are more appropriate ways of doing that. Gun nuts in the south really have this weird fantasy of taking up arms against Washington for various reasons.
this is very true
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On June 30 2015 04:40 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:29 Plansix wrote:
When they say resistance to the US federal government, they mean in relation to being forced to treat black people as equals. Its a critical part that is often left out. That's not even true, but I'm glad you've found a population that is politically correct to disparage. Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 04:11 Chocolate wrote:On June 30 2015 04:10 Djzapz wrote:On June 30 2015 04:01 Chocolate wrote:
It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists. As a Canadian, I find it difficult to have much respect for a people who live in a culture where you're encourage to ignore symbolism to this extent. If a person flies the confederate flag, I feel justified in my low opinion of them. I mean it was the flag used by the people who wanted to defend their right to continue to own slaves, as you've said (BY NO MEANS AN HISTORICAL FACT TO GLOSS OVER), and they lost badly before being assimilated by a larger more prosperous industrialized people, and later at least partially caught up. There are too many ways in which this flag represents a part of history for which people ought to be ashamed, and to continue using this, to my senses, speaks of incredible gullibility or the desire to forget about history. I don't think that someone who thinks critically would fly that flag. It's dumb pride at best, and full blown racism at worst. And I'm not saying it should be illegal to fly it. I tend to agree with you I just want people to know that the intent behind displaying the flag is not always racism Ignorance is pretty much the only other reason. Not really. Everybody knows that the Civil War was a war mostly about slavery (yes, in my state and in many others they officially teach that it was about states rights but everyone knows the truth). The flag just represents more than slavery. I think being a black person from the pacific NW may make you see the flag in a different light form someone who lives in the South.
It think the main concern is how all the black people from the South see the flag and thats the real reason people are backing away from it.
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On June 30 2015 04:40 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:29 Plansix wrote:
When they say resistance to the US federal government, they mean in relation to being forced to treat black people as equals. Its a critical part that is often left out. That's not even true, but I'm glad you've found a population that is politically correct to disparage. Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 04:11 Chocolate wrote:On June 30 2015 04:10 Djzapz wrote:On June 30 2015 04:01 Chocolate wrote:
It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists. As a Canadian, I find it difficult to have much respect for a people who live in a culture where you're encourage to ignore symbolism to this extent. If a person flies the confederate flag, I feel justified in my low opinion of them. I mean it was the flag used by the people who wanted to defend their right to continue to own slaves, as you've said (BY NO MEANS AN HISTORICAL FACT TO GLOSS OVER), and they lost badly before being assimilated by a larger more prosperous industrialized people, and later at least partially caught up. There are too many ways in which this flag represents a part of history for which people ought to be ashamed, and to continue using this, to my senses, speaks of incredible gullibility or the desire to forget about history. I don't think that someone who thinks critically would fly that flag. It's dumb pride at best, and full blown racism at worst. And I'm not saying it should be illegal to fly it. I tend to agree with you I just want people to know that the intent behind displaying the flag is not always racism Ignorance is pretty much the only other reason. Not really. Everybody knows that the Civil War was a war mostly about slavery (yes, in my state and in many others they officially teach that it was about states rights but everyone knows the truth). The flag just represents more than slavery. I think being a black person from the pacific NW may make you see the flag in a different light form someone who lives in the South. Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:21 Djzapz wrote:
I've also heard that to many people, it's a symbol of resistance to the US federal government, but surely there are more appropriate ways of doing that. Gun nuts in the south really have this weird fantasy of taking up arms against Washington for various reasons. this is very true
Most of my family is from the South. I am very familiar with the confederate flag and why people fly it. Truthfully the people who fly it for other reasons just picked it because it looks cool/that's what racist parents told them it represented, and they don't respect/comprehend that it's disgusting.
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On June 30 2015 04:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:40 Chocolate wrote:On June 30 2015 04:29 Plansix wrote:
When they say resistance to the US federal government, they mean in relation to being forced to treat black people as equals. Its a critical part that is often left out. That's not even true, but I'm glad you've found a population that is politically correct to disparage. On June 30 2015 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2015 04:11 Chocolate wrote:On June 30 2015 04:10 Djzapz wrote:On June 30 2015 04:01 Chocolate wrote:
It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists. As a Canadian, I find it difficult to have much respect for a people who live in a culture where you're encourage to ignore symbolism to this extent. If a person flies the confederate flag, I feel justified in my low opinion of them. I mean it was the flag used by the people who wanted to defend their right to continue to own slaves, as you've said (BY NO MEANS AN HISTORICAL FACT TO GLOSS OVER), and they lost badly before being assimilated by a larger more prosperous industrialized people, and later at least partially caught up. There are too many ways in which this flag represents a part of history for which people ought to be ashamed, and to continue using this, to my senses, speaks of incredible gullibility or the desire to forget about history. I don't think that someone who thinks critically would fly that flag. It's dumb pride at best, and full blown racism at worst. And I'm not saying it should be illegal to fly it. I tend to agree with you I just want people to know that the intent behind displaying the flag is not always racism Ignorance is pretty much the only other reason. Not really. Everybody knows that the Civil War was a war mostly about slavery (yes, in my state and in many others they officially teach that it was about states rights but everyone knows the truth). The flag just represents more than slavery. I think being a black person from the pacific NW may make you see the flag in a different light form someone who lives in the South. On June 30 2015 04:21 Djzapz wrote:
I've also heard that to many people, it's a symbol of resistance to the US federal government, but surely there are more appropriate ways of doing that. Gun nuts in the south really have this weird fantasy of taking up arms against Washington for various reasons. this is very true Most of my family is from the South. I am very familiar with the confederate flag and why people fly it. Truthfully the people who fly it for other reasons just picked it because it looks cool/that's what racist parents told them it represented, and they don't respect/comprehend that it's disgusting.
MY FAMILY FAUGHT IN THE WAR GAINST NORTHERN AGGRESSION!11!
I mean seriously, most of the people who even fly it for "historic" reasons cannot accurately tell you the history of the flag. They were just told by parents/family/friends that this specific flag represents their ambiguous 'heritage'. I'm white and I've lived in rural areas in both Carolinas for most of my life. This flag will be better off in the museums.
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The South was built by black people. "Southern food" is just an appropriation of what slaves could make from what they were allowed and what they could afford after they were emancipated. Every form of music associated with the South comes from black Americans.
There is no South without African Americans. You cannot "celebrate your heritage" in a way that refuses to acknowledge them. What you're really celebrating then is either a fantasy or the pride of southern whites.
The colonial flag was flown for many reasons. The CBS was flown first in the defense of slavery and then in defiance of civil rights. There is no equivalence.
Finally, the South had no problem with the Federal government when Bush was president.
Sadly, a lot of people are just flatly ignorant of all of this, even their own shifting opinion of the Federal government when the executive branch changed parties. But that's all it is: ignorance. It's not society's obligation to coddle the ignorant opinions and interpretations people have. It's certainly not the government's place to treat all opinions as equal when it comes to public policy. And it's no retailer's obligation to keep stock based on these viewpoints.
Oh and for future reference it's normal to warn someone in thread with no moderation but with the presence of plenty of LD people before you temp-ban them. I never post in this sub/cross-forum but I've been around for a while and gotten into plenty of arguments and never been goddamned temp-banned.
This is not how we moderate.
User was warned for this post
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United States7483 Posts
On June 30 2015 04:11 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 04:10 Djzapz wrote:On June 30 2015 04:01 Chocolate wrote:
It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists. As a Canadian, I find it difficult to have much respect for a people who live in a culture where you're encourage to ignore symbolism to this extent. If a person flies the confederate flag, I feel justified in my low opinion of them. I mean it was the flag used by the people who wanted to defend their right to continue to own slaves, as you've said (BY NO MEANS AN HISTORICAL FACT TO GLOSS OVER), and they lost badly before being assimilated by a larger more prosperous industrialized people, and later at least partially caught up. There are too many ways in which this flag represents a part of history for which people ought to be ashamed, and to continue using this, to my senses, speaks of incredible gullibility or the desire to forget about history. I don't think that someone who thinks critically would fly that flag. It's dumb pride at best, and full blown racism at worst. And I'm not saying it should be illegal to fly it. I tend to agree with you I just want people to know that the intent behind displaying the flag is not always racism
Intentions matter significantly less than outcomes.
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It doesn't just symbolize hate or the preservation of slavery. Yes, the confederacy existed because it wanted to preserve slavery as an institution. But it also represented a short-lived state with that had a lot in common culturally as well. By that I mean that the South isn't just the area where there used to be slaves, it's an area where people talk similarly, are more religious, tend to be more conservative, have hobbies like hunting, like certain types of music more (country), etc. The confederate flag is something that once represented, and continues to represent, this identity.
I don't want to say stuff like "you have to be from the South to understand" but I think people from the North just don't get it very much. Maybe it's because it's pretty much only used by racists in the North (because why would they have Southern pride?), but down here I assure you it is not used only by racists.
But it doesn't represent this.
That flag was a symbol of hatred, and only hatred, for over 100 years. After the Civil War (where it was a battle flag for a battle that was fought almost exclusively to preserve slavery), it was used by white supremacists (the KKK). Then, it was used by white supremacists again mid-20th century (segregationists). It only started to represent something else when the descendants of those segregationists tried to white-wash the whole situation so that they and their families didn't look as bad by claiming that it was about "southern heritage".
I get that the South has its own distinct culture, but maybe southerners should try to fly something instead of a racist and treasonous flag (the treason part being something that southerners conveniently forget) to represent their heritage.
And no, using it doesn't automatically make you racist. It just makes you ignorant of the racist connotations.
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I have lived in Florida for 7 years, an originally I am from up north.
I can tell you they hang that flag a lot of places, they even have 100 ft pole off the highway near my house its a bit bizarre.
In my opinion it is really hard to sympathize with southerners who fly the flag when every person who does is Caucasian and for the most part secretly racist.
9/10 even if the person isn't racist their parents are and I don't mean to generalize just speaking from my experiences.
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I mean, it's a symbol. It doesn't make much sense to say that any one meaning of a symbol is the "real" one; it depends entirely on the observer. A group of observers can have a consensus view, but that doesn't invalidate the view of another group.
Certainly, one group's reading can be harmful enough that a restriction is warranted, but it's just as ignorant to declare all other readings invalid because of that.
We have a similar issue here with our national flag representing colonialism/white oppression of indigenous people. There's a good argument for changing our flag as a result, but it doesn't stop representing our current identity in the meantime.
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EPT
