EPTCanadian Politics Mega-thread - Page 51
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Fprime
Canada64 Posts
Not to mention that her stated reasons for crossing over were vague and generic. | ||
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CorsairHero
Canada9489 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22673 Posts
This clip is Trudeau being confronted about the UN report declaring that forced sterilization constitutes torture. His response lacks the sincerity and vigor seen in his confronter. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 22 2018 10:42 GreenHorizons wrote: I love how in Canada's system there is so much direct confrontation between the leader and the representatives of the people. I can see how it's a lot of showmanship and such but it's better than when our politicians just yell into the ether. This clip is Trudeau being confronted about the UN report declaring that forced sterilization constitutes torture. https://twitter.com/nikiashton/status/1065342297603284996 His response lacks the sincerity and vigor seen in his confronter. Ive seen and been involved in way to many parliamentary style debates in my time (and im talking from 8th grade onwards) to ever consider anyones raising of an issue as sincere and vigor. Especially when that person is Niki Ashton, who bless her soul is even worse than Trudeau when it comes to eyerolling gender politics. If you really want to see sincerity, vigour and some serious undressing of bad policy you should be looking at Mulcair. Not to suggest that this particular issue isnt a valid or that her sincerity is lacking here, but Niki Ashton is a prime example of why the NDP is getting shat on after actually having a really nice wave here. If you follow her on issues, she has a jelly spine. Backtracks on everything on even the slightest blowback. All bark no bite.. So I think you can forgive Trudeau for being a bit jaded.. edit: dafuq, this isnt Canadian Politics... | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22673 Posts
On November 22 2018 11:55 Rebs wrote: Ive seen and been involved in way to many parliamentary style debates in my time (and im talking from 8th grade onwards) to ever consider anyones raising of an issue as sincere and vigor. Especially when that person is Niki Ashton, who bless her soul is even worse than Trudeau when it comes to eyerolling gender politics. If you really want to see sincerity, vigour and some serious undressing of bad policy you should be looking at Mulcair. Not to suggest that this particular issue isnt a valid or that her sincerity is lacking here, but Niki Ashton is a prime example of why the NDP is getting shat on after actually having a really nice wave here. If you follow her on issues, she has a jelly spine. Backtracks on everything on even the slightest blowback. All bark no bite.. So I think you can forgive Trudeau for being a bit jaded.. edit: dafuq, this isnt Canadian Politics... I don't follow Canadian politics much so I can't really comment beyond how they appeared regarding their sincerity and vigor. I know a bit more about Trudeau and can guess we have different perspectives generally. I just thought he would try harder to at least appear passionate about holding people that were forcefully sterilizing people accountable. EDIT: Dunno what you mean about not being Canadian politics | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 22 2018 12:37 GreenHorizons wrote: I don't follow Canadian politics much so I can't really comment beyond how they appeared regarding their sincerity and vigor. I know a bit more about Trudeau and can guess we have different perspectives generally. I just thought he would try harder to at least appear passionate about holding people that were forcefully sterilizing people accountable. EDIT: Dunno what you mean about not being Canadian politics I believe that means that I am so tired im seeing things.. In any case. Parliamentary politics has a certain standard and a decorum to maintain which is a tiring and jading exercise, especially given that he was clearly reading a prepared response that has to be crafted very carefully to make sure there are no holes in it. While the issues are important the strength and value of a debate in parliament relies on the content of the argument and the words used. Not the level of passion or sincerity. While displaying those things certainly has value in terms of optics and therefore is an essential part of a parliamentary debate, outside parliament it doesnt mean shit. Finally Its easy to be passionate when you arent in charge of actually making any decisions. And have a single issue to address. Thats where context also matters. Nikki Ashton styles herself as a warrior at the forefront of leading women's rights and issues but how she ends up standing up to issues when there is blowback or someone doesnt agree with her is pretty pathetic. You can literally find an entire montage of her asking hard hitting questions and be impressed, (like I was initially after moving here and seeing here) only to find that it was a pretty bad act. And while most Canadians have alot of faults they arent stupid. They will remember what you say and they will see what you do. If the things dont jive you wont get traction with them for long. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22673 Posts
On November 22 2018 12:46 Rebs wrote: I believe that means that I am so tired im seeing things.. In any case. Parliamentary politics has a certain standard and a decorum to maintain which is a tiring and jading exercise, especially given that he was clearly reading a prepared response that has to be crafted very carefully to make sure there are no holes in it. While the issues are important the strength and value of a debate in parliament relies on the content of the argument and the words used. Not the level of passion or sincerity. While displaying those things certainly has value in terms of optics and therefore is an essential part of a parliamentary debate, outside parliament it doesnt mean shit. Finally Its easy to be passionate when you arent in charge of actually making any decisions. And have a single issue to address. Thats where context also matters. Nikki Ashton styles herself as a warrior at the forefront of leading women's rights and issues but how she ends up standing up to issues when there is blowback or someone doesnt agree with her is pretty pathetic. You can literally find an entire montage of her asking hard hitting questions and be impressed, (like I was initially after moving here and seeing here) only to find that it was a pretty bad act. And while most Canadians have alot of faults they arent stupid. They will remember what you say and they will see what you do. If the things dont jive you wont get traction with them for long. For a carefully prepared statement I find it pretty damning that it included absolutely no indication the people responsible would be held accountable. As to the parliamentary debate, I'm sure it's still got plenty of issues but it's a lot better than the total lack of public confrontation between our leader and representatives imo. Granted Trump's little round-table things he had going for a while did end up providing some revealing clips. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 22 2018 13:01 GreenHorizons wrote: For a carefully prepared statement I find it pretty damning that it included absolutely no indication the people responsible would be held accountable. As to the parliamentary debate, I'm sure it's still got plenty of issues but it's a lot better than the total lack of public confrontation between our leader and representatives imo. Granted Drumpf's little round-table things he had going for a while did end up providing some revealing clips. Its not prepared in advance of the Parliaments its prepared during, or maybe even bullet pointed during the question expecting what this particular person will bring to the floor. Just because you are careful doesnt mean that you have alot of time to be careful. I said it was prepared as in it was "created' and carefully crafted". Not pre prepared which is what you are alluding to. Alot of parliamentary debating is quickly jotting doing the points being raised and then preparing a bullet for your answer to it, along with a general set of comments you might have pre prepared. Note this isnt always the case and this is why public speaking the likes of which Mulcair could do was so impressive, people that can think quickly and more importantly articulate quickly in parliament end up being the best representatives. If you feel like comitting to something in the moment is risky during the debate, the general rule is to stay away from it unless the next speaker brings it up again in which case you dont have a choice, In alot of cases as the Govt or the PM, its generally safe to go for a really broad Obama admin style of addressing or agreeing but leaving some parts as a a non answer at the same time. So its best to stay on a message that acknowledges that puts you on the right side of the argument without overcommiting and falling over later. Its still a cat and mouse, just a different kind. Unless ofcourse you have already comitted to a position in which case you have to be ready to double down (see Theresa May, Brexit) His leaving that bit out certainly isnt damning you just like the idea that where ever any kind of injustice exists the people in charge rattle sabers at wrongdoers at the first opportunity, and while for good causes that has value, thats a very immature and naive approach. Its the kind of thing Trudeau did alot his first couple of years and it turned out to not be a very good idea all the time. There are too many highs and lows if you operate in such a manner. If that means some people will find that you didnt say "all who are responsible will feel the full force of the consequences!" appalling, so be it. The average Canadian that isnt far left of left, doesnt think like that. And the reason I say all of the above, and why Trudeau didnt say it, is because its not for him to decide or for him to say things like that because thats not how govt works. Infact of you look at this case, its not for Govt to decide anything in terms of netting out Justice, thats for the courts. His job is to figure out why it happened and put systems in place so that it doesn't happen again, along with any necessary reparations to the affected. And thats essentially what he said. Thats how a functioning democracy with functioning branches of govt works. Infact the whole reason behind the way Ashton frames the questions is to bait out a strong response like the one you are asking for and then dangle it over him aswell later because he literally couldnt do shit even if he wanted to but saying he would, makes him look silly. Heck the Federal Govt might even be found responsible by the court because they might be held responsible in whatever suit comes forward. In that sense the responsibility might even lie with the Govt. So do you realise how stupid of him it would be to essentially say "yes Im going to fire myself for this." The NDP does that alot btw when it comes to Social justice, pretend like its the Federal Govts job to be lawman on every situation. Because doing that as the opposition is low hanging fruit. Mind you I still voted NDP in the premier elections here because they align the most generally with my values (atleast locally) but the party at large is losing badly and its because while Govt has a large role to play, they are going way to left in terms of what the Federal Govts responsibilities are meant to be.It makes Bernie sound like a moderate. Its actually not as honest an exchange from either side as it might seem. In this case in retrospect could have said that there would be consequences and probably come out ok, provided whatever suit comes forward or report doesnt intend to lay blame on the Federal Govt, but if it does then getting baited into saying that the people responsible (what a vague fucking terms, eh? "those responsible") will suffer consequences, is political suicide So as you can see, theres alot to can be unpacked just from that little exchange there and what was said and not said. As far as Parliamentary being better than the US system. Thats debatable. There are merits to not having the leader of your country sit and address and even sometimes squabble with every tom dick and harry member of govt as frequently as can happen. The thing is the US's system is not the issue, its the fact that your politicians are trash with a leader and a culture that spits on the basic tenet son how politicians are meant to get togother and discuss how to run the country. In particular decorum and respect the continuing disregard thereof. Its the quality of your discourse between politicians and the quality of politicians themselves that is lacking. Cant blame the system for that one. Whats the point if all you would get is a highlight reel of Drumpf talking shit instead of twittering whatever forms in his brain, I mean its actual refuse, no good comes of it. I can assure you that there are lots of parliaments with just as shitty politicians + Show Spoiler + (mostly in third world countries, bordering on failed stats, and thats what the state of US politics is comparable to at the moment, objectively speaking.) | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16385 Posts
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2019/01/06/fix-the-transit-fare-fiasco-at-york-u-for-all-our-sakes.html The Liberals had 15 years to get it done, and they let us down. And now the Ford Tories are making things worse by plowing ahead with this patchwork scheme. The Toronto Star is a very pro-liberal newspaper. Its nice to see them publish an opinion that calls it like it is. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22673 Posts
I don't even know what to say to that other than wow. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16385 Posts
I think the name "Progressive Conservative" Party was them trying to say " we are `right of center` .. we are not far-right-wing " | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On January 07 2019 08:46 GreenHorizons wrote: This caused me to somehow finally discover that Canada has a political party that calls itself "The Progressive Conservative" party or "The PC party" for short. I don't even know what to say to that other than wow. The progressive conservative have been dead mostly for 20 years, they merge with another right wing party to form the conservative party. The Ontario progressive conservative party is the last big one and is a clearly right wing party govern by a kind canadian Trump, a bit less on the "outsider side" but pretty much as populist. Pretty much the opposite of a "PC" party. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16385 Posts
On January 07 2019 08:46 GreenHorizons wrote:I don't even know what to say to that other than wow. The original governing party of Canada was called the Liberal-Conservative Party.  | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22673 Posts
Thanks for the info though. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16385 Posts
On January 07 2019 09:24 GreenHorizons wrote: What do words even mean? Thanks for the info though. people will often twist the meaning of words to frame events in a narrative they are trying to create. example provided below. On November 22 2018 10:42 GreenHorizons wrote: His response lacks the sincerity and vigor seen in his confronter. here is his father in action... not allowing a journalist to frame the events in a specific narrative https://vimeo.com/41058829 "they are criminal prisoners ... they are not political prisoners" i would love to see Donald Trump and Pierre Elliot Trudeau ( in his prime ) have a debate. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22673 Posts
On January 07 2019 09:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote: people will often twist the meaning of words to frame events in a narrative they are trying to create. example provided below. here is his father in action... not allowing a journalist to frame the events in a specific narrative https://vimeo.com/41058829 "they are criminal prisoners ... they are not political prisoners" i would love to see Donald Trump and Pierre Elliot Trudeau ( in his prime ) have a debate. Haven't really gotten to Canada in my studies of ML movements but their story does have it's parallels both with the Black Panthers of the past and the hipster socialists we have here now in the US. They get a pretty bad wrap when probably any one of the stockbrokers they injured had contributed to far more human suffering in the interest of extracting profit for themselves and are still supposed to wear the banner of victim. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16385 Posts
On January 07 2019 09:48 GreenHorizons wrote: Haven't really gotten to Canada in my studies of ML movements but their story does have it's parallels both with the Black Panthers of the past and the hipster socialists we have here now in the US. can you explain/amplify what "ML movements" means? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22673 Posts
On January 07 2019 09:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote: can you explain/amplify what "ML movements" means? Marxist-Leninist inspired movements. Did you want more on what Marxism is or something else? | ||
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