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A military operation in Longpont, France is reaching its end, we don't know what happened here, but some sources say something happened here. Police / military forces are soon going to leave the place.
Le Figaro / BFM TV.
L'opération toucherait à sa fin à Longpont
Selon notre journaliste sur place, la trentaine de véhicules des forces de l'ordre qui a afflué à Longpont en début de soirée semblerait sur le point de partir. Les forces de sécurité ont semble-t-il mené une opération, dont on ne connaît cependant pas le résultat.
Le Figaro.fr
EDIT : Lemonde.fr just released more informations concerning the car explosion in Villejuif, France.
LeMonde.fr: Nous avons de nouvelles informations concernant l'explosion à Villejuif. Selon notre journaliste sur place, ce sont en fait deux voitures qui ont explosé. Il s'agissait de deux voitures à vendre d'un garage automobile, qui étaient stationnées devant l'établissement. Nous rappelons par ailleurs que l'explosion n'a pas fait de blessé, selon la police.
We have new informations concerning the Villejuif blast. According to our journaliste, it's not one vehicle but two cars that exploded. Those cars were two cars from a car store. They were parked in front of it.
We remind you that noone was injured in the explosion. (police information)
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On January 09 2015 05:15 Ishentar wrote:
Do you know where the next issue will be available in France ? Is it subscription only ? I'm really considering buying it, but I don't know where to get it and when.
Should be widely available
Charlie Hebdo's lawyer Richard Malka said the newspaper would be published next Wednesday with one million copies compared to its usual print run of 60,000.
Source
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On January 07 2015 22:36 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2015 22:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:
What is really telling is that those islamists cunts don't target the racist anti-muslim far right.
They didn't target Minute which is an openly fascist anti-arab anti-muslim newspaper. They didn't target Eric Zemmour that calls for all muslims in France to be deported. They didn't target Marine Le Pen and her neo fascist discourse.
They target free thinkers, people with no hatred, people whose weapon is humour and satire. There is no reason for them to attack the open hate groups like you mention (They have already achieved what these types of attacks are meant to achieve on them). Their mission is to inspire a global war for/against Islam. The point of the strategy is to inflame average people against the generic thought of Islam/The West as opposed to the specific radicals who wear it as a shield or the specific hate type groups you mention. Every person haphazardly conflating all of Islam with Terrorism is a win for the terrorist. Every person that says events like this or people like the gunmen are acting on behalf of Islam confirms the propaganda that the attackers have been fed. I don't understand how people still can't understand that stripping these people and their actions of any religious context is the single most offensive thing people can do to the terrorist. Calling them Muslim, mentioning "Allahu Akbar" being said, referencing Jihad, and generic anti-Muslim hate is precisely what the terrorist want people to do. They want random westerners to be afraid and defensive when they hear "Allahu Akbar". They are more afraid of being made fun of than they are being called the intended insults (Jihadist's, Terrorists, etc... that are basically compliments and confirmations) It's the same reason that NK got all but hurt about "The Interview". They fear being thought of as a joke a hell of a lot more than they fear being called the things people think are insulting them. When they show footage of westerners being "terrorized" and in fear that's a lot better propaganda for them to use than if everyone was laughing at their fails like the "underwear bomber" If you made a comic of a terror leader blowing up a school they'll just play it off like another western media thing. You draw a cartoon of a terror leader getting admonished by the spirit of a respected religious leader or made into a joke and they will lose their shit. TLDR: Terrorists appreciate it when westerners make them sound like scary terrorist monster Jihadists acting on behalf of Islam. They hate it when you strip their actions of any religious significance and when you act like it doesn't scare you/ give the perception you think they are a joke (while still treating them like the threat they actually represent) Also these guys look trained to some degree. Much different than the recent attack in Australia. EDIT: I notice I was ninja'd a bit, I've never been so pleasantly surprised to see that there actually are several people here who get what the points of these attacks actually are.
At first I wasn't sure if you were agreeing with Biff or not, but I read your TLDR and you agree.
Yeah taking away the tool of propaganda from terrorists takes away half their power. These terrorists specifically targeted the Charlie Hebdo office because they can't fight against the pen with a pen, only with a sword.
The pen truly is mightier than the sword, but the sword can strike the pen down. This wasn't the first time journalists have been slain by terrorists, and it won't be the last.
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On January 09 2015 05:26 PineapplePizza wrote:
Is every big TL news thread going to be an obsessive mod dogpile from now on? I have to sift through countless pages of "don't talk about stuff please" before I find anything connected to the subject.
Some mods should stay away from general tbh. Leave it to the regulars like falling and stealth. It annoys me too.
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Has this been linked?
http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.html
The horrific murder of the editor, cartoonists and other staff of the irreverent satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo, along with two policemen, by terrorists in Paris was in my view a strategic strike, aiming at polarizing the French and European public.
...
Al-Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslim French to be beastly to ethnic Muslims on the grounds that they are Muslims, it can start creating a common political identity around grievance against discrimination.
...
This horrific murder was not a pious protest against the defamation of a religious icon. It was an attempt to provoke European society into pogroms against French Muslims, at which point al-Qaeda recruitment would suddenly exhibit some successes instead of faltering
Maybe that makes sense, they're not specifically angry at cartoonists but they're just trying to provoke.
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On January 09 2015 06:01 Grumbels wrote:Has this been linked? http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.htmlShow nested quote +
The horrific murder of the editor, cartoonists and other staff of the irreverent satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo, along with two policemen, by terrorists in Paris was in my view a strategic strike, aiming at polarizing the French and European public.
...
Al-Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslim French to be beastly to ethnic Muslims on the grounds that they are Muslims, it can start creating a common political identity around grievance against discrimination.
...
This horrific murder was not a pious protest against the defamation of a religious icon. It was an attempt to provoke European society into pogroms against French Muslims, at which point al-Qaeda recruitment would suddenly exhibit some successes instead of faltering
Maybe that makes sense, they're not specifically angry at cartoonists but they're just trying to provoke.
That kind of interpretation is not news. I personally don't really think the authors of such attacks really think this deep, it feels more likely they really just act as pawns and believe in their bullshit, but it's a distinct possibility the people (some) recruiting/helping/suggesting such attacks do have that kind of agenda.
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On January 09 2015 05:26 PineapplePizza wrote:
Is every big TL news thread going to be an obsessive mod dogpile from now on? I have to sift through countless pages of "don't talk about stuff please" before I find anything connected to the subject.
Considering the thread has been successively a xenophobic bashfest on immigrants "breeding like rabbits" (!!), an incoherent flame war about the merit of Islam and almost turned into a firearm debate thanks to our national hero Donald Trump, I would say that thanks god mods are here to get it back on track from time to time. It was about journalist being killed in France, half of it has become the playground for some of our foxbot far right friends to make generalizations that are actually totally unrelated to the killing and also don't smell very good.
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On January 09 2015 06:01 Grumbels wrote:Has this been linked? http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.htmlShow nested quote +
The horrific murder of the editor, cartoonists and other staff of the irreverent satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo, along with two policemen, by terrorists in Paris was in my view a strategic strike, aiming at polarizing the French and European public.
...
Al-Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslim French to be beastly to ethnic Muslims on the grounds that they are Muslims, it can start creating a common political identity around grievance against discrimination.
...
This horrific murder was not a pious protest against the defamation of a religious icon. It was an attempt to provoke European society into pogroms against French Muslims, at which point al-Qaeda recruitment would suddenly exhibit some successes instead of faltering
Maybe that makes sense, they're not specifically angry at cartoonists but they're just trying to provoke.
except when it backfires after you kill a Muslim policeman
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wow I'm surprised some of these comments haven't been banned. I mean, this is TL.
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On January 09 2015 06:01 Grumbels wrote:Has this been linked? http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.htmlShow nested quote +
The horrific murder of the editor, cartoonists and other staff of the irreverent satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo, along with two policemen, by terrorists in Paris was in my view a strategic strike, aiming at polarizing the French and European public.
...
Al-Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslim French to be beastly to ethnic Muslims on the grounds that they are Muslims, it can start creating a common political identity around grievance against discrimination.
...
This horrific murder was not a pious protest against the defamation of a religious icon. It was an attempt to provoke European society into pogroms against French Muslims, at which point al-Qaeda recruitment would suddenly exhibit some successes instead of faltering
Maybe that makes sense, they're not specifically angry at cartoonists but they're just trying to provoke.
I do believe that's what the heads of terrorists groups want. Extremism gives birth to extremism, just like intolerance gives birth to intolerance. So when a Muslim see some people reacting by attacking mosques or preaching hate, it hightens up the chances of him radicalizing and going to the Middle-East to fight for ISIS or similar groups.
I mean I seriously doubt the leaders of groups like ISIS are mad men blinded by what they believe their God wants them to do. They are probably pursuing goals like gaining power locally in the regions where they are physically present. But they need people to fight for them, people who won't think much and who will follow orders. Especially when these orders are being shown as "God's will".
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Filling station robbery is now officially confirmed.
Lemonde.fr
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On January 09 2015 05:45 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 05:26 PineapplePizza wrote:
Is every big TL news thread going to be an obsessive mod dogpile from now on? I have to sift through countless pages of "don't talk about stuff please" before I find anything connected to the subject. Some mods should stay away from general tbh. Leave it to the regulars like falling and stealth. It annoys me too.
What annoys me, is that there's always gotta be someone baiting and starting the bullshit. And then get away with it. It's a consensus over here, i thought, to try to be sensitive in the general forum. The first shitpost was yours:
On January 07 2015 21:59 heliusx wrote:
Islam is sick, it creates too many lunatics. My condolences to our French allies.
People have been warned or banned for far less. Keep it fair please mods.
Sorry to have derailed the thread. If i post in here again it will be only on topic.
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Canada13389 Posts
On January 09 2015 05:45 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 05:26 PineapplePizza wrote:
Is every big TL news thread going to be an obsessive mod dogpile from now on? I have to sift through countless pages of "don't talk about stuff please" before I find anything connected to the subject. Some mods should stay away from general tbh. Leave it to the regulars like falling and stealth. It annoys me too.
There are discussions on the mod team that General forum needs more moderation in general. I am just trying to do my part and keep the discussion on topic and in line with TL rules.
One of the rules on TL is no religion threads. So as a result, to keep this thread open we need to steer the discussion away from religion as a religion, which has been happening a LOT.
If you feel like you want the thread less moderated, or only want particular mods to moderate, go give your feedback in website feedback. But keep in mind in addition to active moderating, all moderators will generally deal with mod reports from general. Something to keep in mind.
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+ Show Spoiler +I get that it should not be a religion thread in the sense of discussion religion as a thing itself, but if the incident is linked to Religion (and when the perpetrators shout "Allahu Akbar" during all of this it is a valid assumption) it is impossible to have this discussion without talking about how it is linked to Religion, or at least people's use/abuse of it.
However, I can completely understand the mod's reaction when I read stuff that goes completely beyond that and it does happen a lot in here. What these... things did has nothing to do with all muslims or the Islam in general, but everything with the islamistic splitter groups that are also responsible for things like ISIS and such.
You have to also keep in mind that Islam is also not only a Religion, it is a whole idea of how a country should be run as well(Sharia Law) and many other systems. This is why you see muslims in Germany(for example) being almost completely different from muslims in countries where they actually have Sharia Law. They might have the same religion and their theistic principles align, but they definitely do not believe in the same principles when it comes to law and ethics in general.
This is a problem seen a lot, e.g. people blaming the Islam for brutal circumcision of women in Central Africa, when this is a regional issue and not a religious one.
What I'm trying to say is:
We cannot deny that this has some links to Religion, more or less the abuse of it, as a motivation/catalyst, but we can also not pretend that this is the fault of the Religion itself. We need to differentiate, and I think the mods are doing a very difficult job keeping the discussion in the right direction.
On-Topic:
Chef Editor of the TITANIC(german satire) puts a bold statement on the topic. He basically says that every form of satire and comedy, even if it is dull and holds no obvious "value", is valid. There is no such thing for him as "appropriate satire" - all satire automatically is appropriate.
They also have no plan at all to increase security whatsoever and said in a TV interview that they have never received any threats from muslims in Germany.
You can read up on it here(google translate works fine):
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Ihr-werdet-der-Komik-nicht-Herr-article14279746.html
The interview is here(german, sorry  )
www.tagesschau.de/sendung/nachtmagazin/index.html 8 minutes in.
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I kinda agree with you KeksX. Trying to discuss these things without religion is delusional. Just because the Western world has gone past the middle ages does not mean that every part of the world did the same. Trying to focus on money/politics in regards to this attacks is trying to use a western lens on a phenomen that cannot be fully explained by us.
Also, did the forest search have no success? I cannot believe how this people are still on the run after more than 36 hours
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On January 09 2015 07:18 KeksX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I get that it should not be a religion thread in the sense of discussion religion as a thing itself, but if the incident is linked to Religion (and when the perpetrators shout "Allahu Akbar" during all of this it is a valid assumption) it is impossible to have this discussion without talking about how it is linked to Religion, or at least people's use/abuse of it.
However, I can completely understand the mod's reaction when I read stuff that goes completely beyond that and it does happen a lot in here. What these... things did has nothing to do with all muslims or the Islam in general, but everything with the islamistic splitter groups that are also responsible for things like ISIS and such.
You have to also keep in mind that Islam is also not only a Religion, it is a whole idea of how a country should be run as well(Sharia Law) and many other systems. This is why you see muslims in Germany(for example) being almost completely different from muslims in countries where they actually have Sharia Law. They might have the same religion and their theistic principles align, but they definitely do not believe in the same principles when it comes to law and ethics in general.
This is a problem seen a lot, e.g. people blaming the Islam for brutal circumcision of women in Central Africa, when this is a regional issue and not a religious one.
What I'm trying to say is:
We cannot deny that this has some links to Religion, more or less the abuse of it, as a motivation/catalyst, but we can also not pretend that this is the fault of the Religion itself. We need to differentiate, and I think the mods are doing a very difficult job keeping the discussion in the right direction. On-Topic: Chef Editor of the TITANIC(german satire) puts a bold statement on the topic. He basically says that every form of satire and comedy, even if it is dull and holds no obvious "value", is valid. There is no such thing for him as "appropriate satire" - all satire automatically is appropriate. They also have no plan at all to increase security whatsoever and said in a TV interview that they have never received any threats from muslims in Germany. You can read up on it here(google translate works fine): http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Ihr-werdet-der-Komik-nicht-Herr-article14279746.htmlThe interview is here(german, sorry ) www.tagesschau.de/sendung/nachtmagazin/index.html 8 minutes in.
I get that it should not be a religion thread in the sense of discussion religion as a thing itself, but if the incident is linked to Religion (and when the perpetrators shout "Allahu Akbar" during all of this it is a valid assumption) it is impossible to have this discussion without talking about how it is linked to Religion, or at least people's use/abuse of it.
2/12 victims were Muslims, and they make up only 8% of the population making this attack one that disproportionately hurt Muslims.
But you dont see anyone posting 'French Muslims at greater threat than others in France' on this post because of how ludicrous it sounds. And thats the problem, every asshole shouting Allah Akbar is instantly connected to billions of people -- including millions in the West who seem to be just fine when they arent ghettoized (American and Canadian Muslims are economically and socially indistinguishable from our societies in terms of economic and social mobility). But you see a crazy white guy mass murder and he gets to be just a crazy white guy, no one is sitting around and asking how come white guys are so much more prone to mass murdering people than all the other cultures.
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CNN)Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi has called for a "religious revolution," asking Muslim leaders to help in the fight against extremism.
In a speech celebrating the birthday of the Prophet Muḥammad, which coincided with New Year's Day, he said they had no time to lose.
"I say and repeat, again, that we are in need of a religious revolution. You imams are responsible before Allah. The entire world is waiting on you. The entire world is waiting for your word ... because the Islamic world is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost. And it is being lost by our own hands," el-Sisi said.
"We need a revolution of the self, a revolution of consciousness and ethics to rebuild the Egyptian person -- a person that our country will need in the near future," the President said.
El-Sisi, himself a pious man, was elected in May after leaving the military to run for the office.
A former defense minister, he led the ouster of Mohamed Morsy -- the Islamist who was Egypt's first democratically elected President -- and has long positioned himself as a more secular option, and defender against extremist views.
Source
Not exactly a Luther but it's definitely progress. A democratically elected Muslim in Egypt calling out extremists and asking moderates to "fight against them" is probably one of the few victories gained from the region. Let's just hope they can find their Luther and that the reformed Islam is a strong force in fighting extremism. Pretty brave to say it front of a bunch Imams too.
Is there a reason updates have slowed/stopped on the suspects?
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On January 09 2015 07:29 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 07:18 KeksX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I get that it should not be a religion thread in the sense of discussion religion as a thing itself, but if the incident is linked to Religion (and when the perpetrators shout "Allahu Akbar" during all of this it is a valid assumption) it is impossible to have this discussion without talking about how it is linked to Religion, or at least people's use/abuse of it.
However, I can completely understand the mod's reaction when I read stuff that goes completely beyond that and it does happen a lot in here. What these... things did has nothing to do with all muslims or the Islam in general, but everything with the islamistic splitter groups that are also responsible for things like ISIS and such.
You have to also keep in mind that Islam is also not only a Religion, it is a whole idea of how a country should be run as well(Sharia Law) and many other systems. This is why you see muslims in Germany(for example) being almost completely different from muslims in countries where they actually have Sharia Law. They might have the same religion and their theistic principles align, but they definitely do not believe in the same principles when it comes to law and ethics in general.
This is a problem seen a lot, e.g. people blaming the Islam for brutal circumcision of women in Central Africa, when this is a regional issue and not a religious one.
What I'm trying to say is:
We cannot deny that this has some links to Religion, more or less the abuse of it, as a motivation/catalyst, but we can also not pretend that this is the fault of the Religion itself. We need to differentiate, and I think the mods are doing a very difficult job keeping the discussion in the right direction. On-Topic: Chef Editor of the TITANIC(german satire) puts a bold statement on the topic. He basically says that every form of satire and comedy, even if it is dull and holds no obvious "value", is valid. There is no such thing for him as "appropriate satire" - all satire automatically is appropriate. They also have no plan at all to increase security whatsoever and said in a TV interview that they have never received any threats from muslims in Germany. You can read up on it here(google translate works fine): http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Ihr-werdet-der-Komik-nicht-Herr-article14279746.htmlThe interview is here(german, sorry ) www.tagesschau.de/sendung/nachtmagazin/index.html 8 minutes in. Show nested quote +I get that it should not be a religion thread in the sense of discussion religion as a thing itself, but if the incident is linked to Religion (and when the perpetrators shout "Allahu Akbar" during all of this it is a valid assumption) it is impossible to have this discussion without talking about how it is linked to Religion, or at least people's use/abuse of it. 2/12 victims were Muslims, and they make up only 8% of the population making this attack one that disproportionately hurt Muslims. But you dont see anyone posting 'French Muslims at greater threat than others in France' on this post because of how ludicrous it sounds. And thats the problem, every asshole shouting Allah Akbar is instantly connected to billions of people -- including millions in the West who seem to be just fine when they arent ghettoized (American and Canadian Muslims are economically and socially indistinguishable from our societies in terms of economic and social mobility). But you see a crazy white guy mass murder and he gets to be just a crazy white guy, no one is sitting around and asking how come white guys are so much more prone to mass murdering people than all the other cultures.
I completely see your point however that is what I tried to adress within a paragraph. People automatically go way beyond what is reasonable and assume "these guys were religious, so everyone who is religious is the same" in one way or another. Of course that is complete bs, but to say that Religion should be completely taken out of the equation is not right either.
It seems to serve as a catalyst here the same way that money serves as a catalyst in drug murders, for example.
I hope you get what I mean.
Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread any further. I just want to point out that we need to differentiate, and with some comments posted here, the mods have every right to tell people to to calm down to say it lightly.
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On January 09 2015 07:29 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 07:18 KeksX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I get that it should not be a religion thread in the sense of discussion religion as a thing itself, but if the incident is linked to Religion (and when the perpetrators shout "Allahu Akbar" during all of this it is a valid assumption) it is impossible to have this discussion without talking about how it is linked to Religion, or at least people's use/abuse of it.
However, I can completely understand the mod's reaction when I read stuff that goes completely beyond that and it does happen a lot in here. What these... things did has nothing to do with all muslims or the Islam in general, but everything with the islamistic splitter groups that are also responsible for things like ISIS and such.
You have to also keep in mind that Islam is also not only a Religion, it is a whole idea of how a country should be run as well(Sharia Law) and many other systems. This is why you see muslims in Germany(for example) being almost completely different from muslims in countries where they actually have Sharia Law. They might have the same religion and their theistic principles align, but they definitely do not believe in the same principles when it comes to law and ethics in general.
This is a problem seen a lot, e.g. people blaming the Islam for brutal circumcision of women in Central Africa, when this is a regional issue and not a religious one.
What I'm trying to say is:
We cannot deny that this has some links to Religion, more or less the abuse of it, as a motivation/catalyst, but we can also not pretend that this is the fault of the Religion itself. We need to differentiate, and I think the mods are doing a very difficult job keeping the discussion in the right direction. On-Topic: Chef Editor of the TITANIC(german satire) puts a bold statement on the topic. He basically says that every form of satire and comedy, even if it is dull and holds no obvious "value", is valid. There is no such thing for him as "appropriate satire" - all satire automatically is appropriate. They also have no plan at all to increase security whatsoever and said in a TV interview that they have never received any threats from muslims in Germany. You can read up on it here(google translate works fine): http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Ihr-werdet-der-Komik-nicht-Herr-article14279746.htmlThe interview is here(german, sorry ) www.tagesschau.de/sendung/nachtmagazin/index.html 8 minutes in. Show nested quote +I get that it should not be a religion thread in the sense of discussion religion as a thing itself, but if the incident is linked to Religion (and when the perpetrators shout "Allahu Akbar" during all of this it is a valid assumption) it is impossible to have this discussion without talking about how it is linked to Religion, or at least people's use/abuse of it. 2/12 victims were Muslims, and they make up only 8% of the population making this attack one that disproportionately hurt Muslims. But you dont see anyone posting 'French Muslims at greater threat than others in France' on this post because of how ludicrous it sounds. And thats the problem, every asshole shouting Allah Akbar is instantly connected to billions of people -- including millions in the West who seem to be just fine when they arent ghettoized (American and Canadian Muslims are economically and socially indistinguishable from our societies in terms of economic and social mobility). But you see a crazy white guy mass murder and he gets to be just a crazy white guy, no one is sitting around and asking how come white guys are so much more prone to mass murdering people than all the other cultures.
Well we have to be honest here. If people don't think so it's because 90% of these attacks are carried out by Muslims.
If the Madrid, London accidents would have been done by Hinduists, the western world would have the same attitude towards them that it has today towards Muslims.
While I can concede that we have to separate between integralists and moderates, the fact that Hinduists, Gianists, Buddhists, Protestants, Rastafarians, Shintoists did (and are still not doing) not do these kind of attacks HAS to be a question.
There are populations that would almost be justified in doing these kinds of attacks (Tibetans for example) but they still do not do it. Why?
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I think it would be best to lock this thread and just let the mods update the OP due to how much the events have escalated. It is not in TeamLiquid's professional interests to take any chances with what could easily end up as politically incorrect discussion regarding religion, race and immigration. The worst that could happen would be Stephano, undoubtedly the most popular SC2 foreign pro-gamer, coming in this thread, mistranslating and taking some of the posts personally, with arguments ensuing. Not the kind of publicity TeamLiquid would want.
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EPT
