EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 847
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
The constitution here says that "the president removes a minister on the request of the prime minister", giving him no room to act otherwise - so why isn't the minister straight removed by the prime minister? Letting the PM remove the ministers on his own would give too much power to PMs in coalition governments. The PM would be able to kick out the ministers from other parties and rule without a majority for a few weeks (or months if the parliament is particularly dysfunctional) until he gets removed from office. The president is there to keep things in order. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:45 Sent. wrote: Letting the PM remove the ministers on his own would give too much power to PMs in coalition governments. The PM would be able to kick out the ministers from other parties and rule without a majority for a few weeks (or months if the parliament is particularly dysfunctional) until he gets removed from office. The president is there to keep things in order. But the constitution doesn't give the president any power to "keep things in order". It explicitly says that he removes the minister when the PM requests it and all the constitutional layers agree that this is the correct interpretation of the article in question. Literally the only way the president can influence it is to be at odds with the consititution. What is this good for? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:52 opisska wrote: But the constitution doesn't give the president any power to "keep things in order". It explicitly says that he removes the minister when the PM requests it and all the constitutional layers agree that this is the correct interpretation of the article in question. Literally the only way the president can influence it is to be at odds with the consititution. What is this good for? It's probably to give the president some kind of role as a notary. Basically by not letting the PM do it himself you have a guy that doublechecks whether the release of this high position was actually and orderly requested by the PM. Your president's stance shouldn't hold before the constitutional court in this case, but since most people nowadays don't punish grave missbehaviour that puts democracy at risk by vote for ideological reasons (see Fillion, Le Pen) it is probably a valid stalling technique. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
Some guys try to interpret such rules as giving the president a choice because, similarly to opisska, they assume the rule wouldn't make sense if the president had no influence on the process. They claim that those rules mean "the president can remove X only with the request of Y". Obviously this argumentation is full of shit, but it's enough to convince the uninformed citizen that the "matter is complicated", which lets him fall back on his political preferences instead of logic. We had a similar problem in Poland some time ago where the current president refused to appoint new constitutional judges chosen by the previous parliament. The difference is that he was partially correct, because the previous parliament picked more judges than it was allowed to choose. This is why it's extremely important to have those constitutional "mechanics" infallible. One fuck up can lead to another and eventually it will snowball to a point where it will be impossible to fix a legal problem without breaking the law. | ||
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
On May 09 2017 15:38 SkrollK wrote: I love this guy justifications, really helps me. Imma do the same kind of reasoning, be careful, godwin indahouse. <insert random pic of third reich meeting with (obv) only nazis flags> "Do you see any <insert random non-nazi political organization> flags in here ? No ! People loves Hitler ! Therefore, he is no dictator and he is a great person for our country !" Well, under that comparison, I hope you acknowledge your arguments to make us believe Erdogan doesn't lean on the dictator side are pretty much garbage. (sorry fellow German for the example, just the first that came to my mind) I think what he meant instead was Erdogan is a dictator but thats not the point. We have and always had much bigger deep government problems that makes Erdogan and other previous regimes profit both financially and keeps them in power inderectly. Now these can never be fully cleaned cuz they are in league with the government, but government somehow has to show that they are combatting deep government so they get votes etc. A coup is even worse and no one wants that so yeah no easy solution. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On May 09 2017 17:22 SkrollK wrote: The guy (lastpuritain), is trying to make us (in the thread) believe that everyone in Turkey sees Erdogan as a Saviour and a great person, and that us (westerners bad people that does not understand anything about Turk politics cause we are not Turk (in fact, just because we disagree with him)) are depicting him as a dictator and are wrong about this. Half of the Turkey sees Erdogan as savior, and a big part of that view comes from his harsh attitude towards European so called democracy lecturers. They can easily spot the evil side of German liberalism when they let PKK banners in their rallies fly high, despite being banned, and ban Turkish rallies, "because Erdogan is a dictator." Without a doubt, they will again see how bad ally Germany is when Germans let coup plotters walk free in their country, do you believe they will be investigated? Or how can you investigate without proper evidence which Germany will never have, because the Turks have them, and you're inclined to believe those evidence are fabricated. It will be again "WE KNOW BETTER" attitude from Germany, they will surely know who's guilty in a coup attempt in Turkey, better than Turkey! Do you remember the rapist kid that Germany oppressed Turkish judges for his release, pretty much the same arrogance. http://www.dw.com/en/german-teen-suspected-of-abuse-released-from-turkish-prison/a-3005286 And yeah, you know almost NOTHING about Turkey, whenever a major trial, or something big happens in Turkey, I follow the journalism global media does in TR, very WEAK translation, no CASE follow-ups, NO detailed information, it's been in your headlines if they're somehow related to your liberal values, like "Kurdish towns are getting destroyed by Turkish tanks." And if you wonder why the tanks are there, newspapers tell you the same sentence again and again "ongoing Turkey vs PKK battles over Kurdish rights". They simply give you what they think overall, none of the daily suicide bombings, ambushes are being mentioned, PKK's decision to fight inside the towns which makes them 100% responsible for the destruction of the towns is never mentioned. Is that journalism? I wanted to show you the SLEDGEHAMMER trials and found almost nothing, only their release and arrest. But it is almost the main reason in Turkey why the opposition hates Gulen, of course after his coup attempt, which you don't believe at all, lol. Is there a point where you don't disagree with the Turkish officials? That's beyond we think different / you think different type situation, you run your own agenda, Turkey runs his own agenda. And we have a great example of how the West handled the ME with their own agendas throughout the history, why would be following yours, to doom our future to satisfy you? Let's say over Kurdistan issue, the whole region is against a fabricated Kurdistan nation founded by you guys, why fuel this idea if THE PEOPLE LIVING THERE (including great amounts of kurds) are against it, none of your business. But in your minds, you have a neverchanging belief that some of the Kurds should be having their own nation no matter what, bloodshed? it's Iran's fault, Assad's fault, Erdogan's fault, back in the time the Westerners were doing it with their brute force, the only way to oppose it was beating the shit out of them, these day you do it by selling your liberal ideas with tons of weapon drops attached to them. In 10 years after ISIS, there will be another bloodshed in Syria because Assad and the Turks will be destroying the threat against their nation. German weapons will be used against the both of these nations as they're now, and you will just RAISE your famous fake concerns, condemns, and urging. Turkey bombed down the Syrian YPG that the US trains, what did the US do? Any sanctions over Turkey, no. It was a goddamn big reason to cut any ties with Turkey, why they haven't move a muscle except placing some US armor around the camps, because Turkey sent them the proof of PKK-YPG arms change in that region, informed they'll be bombed, the US knew about it, but they also knew they can't cut the ties between PKK and YPG, they have just played for victim role to save their asses on global media. Well, there is not really enough time to do that within that hour window and there is not really enough fidelity on exactly who was being struck in order to even consider doing so. So this was a notification that strikes were going to occur against terrorists, you know NATO-ally, Turkey is a NATO-ally, so there is not really enough information there for us to know exactly who was being struck or exactly where the strikes were going to occur. So this was just an unfortunate series of events and that resulted in the deaths of many forces who had been very effective in fighting ISIS. Very honest one. He plainly says yeah there were terrorists next to our proxies and they got bombed, unfortunate because they were good use. The only destination you take the world is Turkey will be leaving Nato, being openly hostile to the Germany and the nations follows her, block Incirlik and cut any western influence in ME, downing some Greece jets over the Aegean because NATO is the only reason the two are not fighting, placing s-400 in Istanbul, and prepare for full scale Balkan invasion because I know my country, when you let imperialistic Turks reasons to feed hatred, they will place a secondary Russia on your borders like within 10 years of time until the whole region is totally destroyed with wars. Just think of a secondary scenario, force YPG to quit supplying the PKK, make NATO planes for the first time in its useless history to hit PKK camps within Syria and Iraq to help an ally, dislike Erdogan but respect the people who voted for him as we hate Merkel but still love German people, German culture, German football etc already, stop making the Turkish people dislike you, return Gulen, join the trials, raise your concerns again if the evidence looks fabricated, instead of accepting high rank army officials that went rogue and ordered / planned / or been a part of the plan that the destroys our TBMM, our people: + Show Spoiler + https://youtu.be/-72K4OE26T4 and become a TRUE ALLY. Right now Germany and Turkey aren't allies but business partners, that's it. But consider, is there a conflict that Turkey fuels within Europe, tell me anything that Turkey does against German nation's well functioning existence except being a protective gate from the refugees you fear the most? Erdogan is a passive aggressor, arrogant and evil. But he's so full of with his Turkey and PKK-GULEN, none of his actions hurt you whilst your ATGMS hit our tanks, PERIOD. Turkey has lots of youth potential that is friendly to the West, not the governments but to the whole culture, like I am right now, your constant abuse of our red lines are undermining this friendship. On May 09 2017 17:22 SkrollK wrote: His argument (lol) is the following : “Every Turk loves him and think he is a great man, he is no dictator, see, as a proof, here is a random picture of wtf I want showing lots of people brandishing flags of his political wing so, you see, every Turk loves him you are wrong.” Never said any of these, but again it proves how irrelevant you're to the Turkish politics. That picture is from a joint AKP-CHP-MHP rally where the whole nation stood against the coup forces. I posted it to show you, if you take fleed army officials like the Greeks did despite they promised Turkey their return, (you know they freed coup soldiers that landed in their soil after their helicopter has been hit and they faked "we didn't know it was a coup" but somehow we have clear evidence shows they fought with Turkish ground forces until they got hit and forced to land ) you will not only facing Erdogan, but the opposition too. So it will basically YOU vs whole Turkish nation. Erdogan will be benefiting that's it. I only said that. On May 09 2017 20:10 opisska wrote: Why does it even matter, what "the Turks" think? The level of support for Erdogan is irrelevant for the case at hand. If we have reasonable doubts that some people will get a fair trial in their country because of their political stances, we should accept them as political refugees. It's really a no-brainer. If lastpuritan's claims of their crimes are true, we can eventually release them to Turkish justice, but we should first try to check their claim of unfair trial and investigate which claims are possibly fabricated. NO, that's not how the things work. You don't have the right or the privilege to decide whether their trials will be fair or not. That's not a government's job. Those reasonable doubts can be very politic and relative. You usually let a citizen to face trials in their nation, and the citizen rejects the guilt, goes to the supreme court and then to the ECHR. Please don't rewrite international laws. Plus, liberals in the west usually blame the anti-globalist/right wing people with populism, but Wilders is getting his energy from the liberals' erdogan bashing, liberals become great populists on international level and feed their right wingers, then again blame right wingers for being populists, that's what I see. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Whatever your problem with Germany protecting its citizens from a tainted judicial system is, I think the case you cited doesn't make for a compelling argument. Also, if Germany can't get Deniz jücel Out of prison, what makes you think any number of unknown soldiers won't just disappear and rot in prison? Utter nonsense to have their trial in Turkey IMO at the moment. If things cool down, different story. But with that rampage going on... | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:05 Big J wrote: It's probably to give the president some kind of role as a notary. Basically by not letting the PM do it himself you have a guy that doublechecks whether the release of this high position was actually and orderly requested by the PM. Your president's stance shouldn't hold before the constitutional court in this case, but since most people nowadays don't punish grave missbehaviour that puts democracy at risk by vote for ideological reasons (see Fillion, Le Pen) it is probably a valid stalling technique. This is why you need a Monarch who has no illusion of having any political power and won't deliberately cause a constitutional crisis. I'm sure Karl von Habsburg will gladly reclaim the Kingdom of Bohemia for his family again if the Czech people invited him. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On May 10 2017 07:14 Artisreal wrote: And hell yes it is a government's duty to judge whether those that apply for refuge are actually doing so for legit reasons. No idea where you get the notion that this is not the case. Whatever your problem with Germany protecting its citizens from a tainted judicial system is, I think the case you cited doesn't make for a compelling argument. Also, if Germany can't get Deniz jücel Out of prison, what makes you think any number of unknown soldiers won't just disappear and rot in prison? Utter nonsense to have their trial in Turkey IMO at the moment. If things cool down, different story. But with that rampage going on... Gulenists aren't your citizens. We all know Deniz Yücel is pro-PKK and will face trial for spreading PKK propaganda and his parts on collaborating with illegal hacking team to hack Energy Minister's private mail. But you're simply brushing the whole thing with your liberalism and market it with "crackdown on press freedom" again, because it serves the agenda that I criticize. You should understand any words that sympathize the PKK is a CRIME in Turkey, or hacking too. Praising, or whitewashing the ISIS would probably make you go to jail in Europe as well, or it should. So you're saying you won't give coup plotters to Turkey because they may disappear in the prison? Oh, I'm asking them back then with the same reason, because they may get lost in Germany like the 10.000 refugee kids. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/29/fears-many-of-9000-refugee-children-missing-in-germany-may-have/ | ||
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Yurie
11865 Posts
On May 10 2017 09:44 lastpuritan wrote: Gulenists aren't your citizens. We all know Deniz Yücel is pro-PKK and will face trial for spreading PKK propaganda and his parts on collaborating with illegal hacking team to hack Energy Minister's private mail. But you're simply brushing the whole thing with your liberalism and market it with "crackdown on press freedom" again, because it serves the agenda that I criticize. You should understand any words that sympathize the PKK is a CRIME in Turkey, or hacking too. Praising, or whitewashing the ISIS would probably make you go to jail in Europe as well, or it should. So you're saying you won't give coup plotters to Turkey because they may disappear in the prison? Oh, I'm asking them back then with the same reason, because they may get lost in Germany like the 10.000 refugee kids. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/29/fears-many-of-9000-refugee-children-missing-in-germany-may-have/ As far as I know it isn't a punishable crime to praise or whitewash ISIS in most of Europe. You likely end up on a watch list for doing it though. You can of course say things in such a way that you brake rules for promoting violence against people or other similar laws. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:30 lastpuritan wrote: Half of the Turkey sees Erdogan as savior, and a big part of that view comes from his harsh attitude towards European so called democracy lecturers. They can easily spot the evil side of German liberalism when they let PKK banners in their rallies fly high, despite being banned, and ban Turkish rallies, "because Erdogan is a dictator." Obviously missing the fact that the german police is investigating. Would be too inconvenient, i guess. Turkish rallies also weren't "banned". What was banned, is something that's fucking illegal under your very own laws. Guess as an erdoganist, you aren't really interested in truth. Without a doubt, they will again see how bad ally Germany is when Germans let coup plotters walk free in their country, do you believe they will be investigated? Or how can you investigate without proper evidence which Germany will never have, because the Turks have them, and you're inclined to believe those evidence are fabricated. It will be again "WE KNOW BETTER" attitude from Germany, they will surely know who's guilty in a coup attempt in Turkey, better than Turkey! Another untrue "fact". Turkey gave out lists of people they want to see jailed. That's it. No evidence, just the statement "these people are guilty", with a couple of hundred names on it. Who's guilty or not is not up to you, nor your government. It's up to the justice system, although as an erdoganist, i'm sure you wouldn't understand judging by the thousands of people who got fired/jailed without actually being charged. Reminds me of something that happened a long time ago. Do you remember the rapist kid that Germany oppressed Turkish judges for his release, pretty much the same arrogance. http://www.dw.com/en/german-teen-suspected-of-abuse-released-from-turkish-prison/a-3005286 Missing the fact that he was actually judged guilty of sexual assault, not rape. Not able to tell the difference, hm? Might be the reason why you don't get the sentence (2 1/2 years on probation btw). And yeah, you know almost NOTHING about Turkey, whenever a major trial, or something big happens in Turkey, I follow the journalism global media does in TR, very WEAK translation, no CASE follow-ups, NO detailed information, it's been in your headlines if they're somehow related to your liberal values, like "Kurdish towns are getting destroyed by Turkish tanks." And if you wonder why the tanks are there, newspapers tell you the same sentence again and again "ongoing Turkey vs PKK battles over Kurdish rights". They simply give you what they think overall, none of the daily suicide bombings, ambushes are being mentioned, PKK's decision to fight inside the towns which makes them 100% responsible for the destruction of the towns is never mentioned. Is that journalism? I wanted to show you the SLEDGEHAMMER trials and found almost nothing, only their release and arrest. But it is almost the main reason in Turkey why the opposition hates Gulen, of course after his coup attempt, which you don't believe at all, lol. Because there's no evidence for it. Why is nobody releasing the evidence? Come on, i don't wanna hear "obviously it was him" and other bullshit that i constantly hear from turkish friends. I'd like you to show actual evidence here that points out unmistakably that gulen controlled that coup. "Erdogan said so, why would he lie" doesn't count. Documents, tapes, videos - anything that is actual proof, rather than your politicians bullshitting. Since you're so confident, shouldn't be a problem. Cheers in advance. NO, that's not how the things work. You don't have the right or the privilege to decide whether their trials will be fair or not. That's not a government's job. Those reasonable doubts can be very politic and relative. You usually let a citizen to face trials in their nation, and the citizen rejects the guilt, goes to the supreme court and then to the ECHR. Please don't rewrite international laws. Actually, yeah. That's exactly how it works. You're even citing "international laws" which i'm sure you have no idea about and have nothing to do with the asylum process. Ever heard the term "political refugee"? Guess how you decide wether or not someone has the right to political asylum. Yeah, you judge the reason they fled. In this case, your blatantly biased courtsystem, that basically fired everyone who would deem an alleged! gulenist innocent. Just a few paragraphs earlier you fucking complained about germany asking to get the sexual offender back, then you go ahead and say "face trials in their nation". Do you even realise how you argue, or is the nationalism too stronk, making you blind to your own inconsistencies? Gonna send Deniz Yuzel back, because obviously you should, by your logic, not be judging our judical system - and the "fact" that offenders should be tried in their homecountry? No? Didn't think so you hypocrite. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
This really isn't complicated lastpuritan, you seem to have lost sight of how fast Turkey is going down the shitter. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On May 10 2017 13:12 m4ini wrote: Another untrue "fact". Turkey gave out lists of people they want to see jailed. That's it. No evidence, just the statement "these people are guilty", with a couple of hundred names on it. Lie. On May 10 2017 13:12 m4ini wrote: Who's guilty or not is not up to you, nor your government. It's up to the justice system, although as an erdoganist, i'm sure you wouldn't understand judging by the thousands of people who got fired/jailed without actually being charged. Not up to yours, but the Turkish justice system. (because they're turkish citizens) On May 10 2017 13:12 m4ini wrote: Do you remember the rapist kid that Germany oppressed Turkish judges for his release, pretty much the same arrogance. http://www.dw.com/en/german-teen-suspected-of-abuse-released-from-turkish-prison/a-3005286 His case was still dramatized and your so called liberal democracy didn't work on that one when it hit your little citizen. He was freed due to heavy German pressure despite British lawyers' efforts. On May 10 2017 13:12 m4ini wrote: Because there's no evidence for it. Why is nobody releasing the evidence? Come on, i don't wanna hear "obviously it was him" and other bullshit that i constantly hear from turkish friends. I'd like you to show actual evidence here that points out unmistakably that gulen controlled that coup. "Erdogan said so, why would he lie" doesn't count. Documents, tapes, videos - anything that is actual proof, rather than your politicians bullshitting. Since you're so confident, shouldn't be a problem. Cheers in advance. Not my problem if you can't google, or you don't know Turkish, if you go to Turkey and say it wasn't Gulen in the public places they will probably spit in your face. It's like saying Hitler wasn't behind the termination of millions of Jewish people. We are talking about a organization who had schools in Russia, Africa, the US, Asia and all around the globe, an organization that is capable of leaking the audio recordings of top secret government-army officials' meeting, an organization that successfully listens Erdogan's phone calls, successfully destroying a football club by bribing some UEFA officials, systemically placing their followers in army since 1970's and eliminating many youth officers who don't obey them, an organization that is able to send 150 of democrat congressmen to holiday in Turkey, and according to both Russian and Turkish intelligence, an organization that has the NATO officers who downed the Russian jet, forcing Erdogan to fight a war he can't win, and probably an organization raises assassins like the one who killed the Russian ambassador. Now I'm guessing you're expecting something like this: From: clericgulen@gulenists.com Subject: START THE COUP Mail: It's the time, I'm ordering it! You won't be finding that. He's stupidly overpowered and rich that even Flynn tries to throw him out from his country with special forces. I provided some evidence in this thread before, Zaman TV advertisements that makes subliminal coup messages, strange movements on billions of Turkish liras in Gulen Banks 2 days before the coup, and week before. Confession of some officers to get reduced jail-time because they were shocked when heard Gulenist F-16 pilots dropping bombs on citizens. Hundreds of other confessions that the very same pilots admitting their links and visit Gulen: http://www.sozcu.com.tr/2017/gundem/darbeden-6-ay-once-fethullah-gulenle-gorustuk-1651884/ (An f-16 pilot goes to the states and visits Gulen, 6 months later he bombs us and this not an evidence for you.) For fucks sake, give me a gulenist and a decent man. Every Turk can spot the Gulenist one by looking their dresscode and the way they speech. People were openly admitting they are Gulenist like 5 years ago. It's a thing in Turkey, if you're Turk, you can almost every time can spot a Gulenist you met. Most of the coup soldiers are well known Gulenists but they were denying their links for years, even after the first hours of failed coup some of them were acting like they were helping, ordering Turkish tanks to move irrelevant locations and trying to make some plotters escape. All got caught. https://twitter.com/kemal_ingiliz/status/754048172893278208?lang=en (check the tweet date) This was a twitter account who was foreseeing Turkish policies with sharp words. He tweeted on that coup night, "My friends, what's happening (smiley)" (check the tweet date) To a pro-AKP journalist "Fatih, I'll make you scream." (check the tweet date) (his former account is @KULA_MER) Turns out to be a fucking COLONEL ÖMER KULAÇ. First 4 letters of his surname, and the last 3 of his name is his twitter account. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://img-s1.onedio.com/id-578adcce34da04a65e423438/rev-0/w-635/listing/f-jpg-webp/s-fdfd1ceab62f4b8f77a1e7ba99888f7b0560b28e.webp) He had a gunfight with police and arrested when he runs out of ammunition. (I don't know any shit, I'm in the mids of a mountain, what's happening?) A tweet comes from him when he understood the coup is failing, following day of the coup attempt. Looking deep in his previous tweets, we see he's praising Turkish Air Force (gulenist hive) on every chance he can get. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://img-s1.onedio.com/id-578ae6130f35e7d423a58852/rev-0/w-635/listing/f-jpg-webp/s-dd788063ed52f0f0da76d783b82785b16a6b41ff.webp) He even makes a joke (by telling the truth) that he's been appointed as military commission general, was interesting to hear that from a troll acc. Let's have a deeper look to this colonel, how he will take us to Gulen? Mister Ömer Kulaç aka the twitter troll, has 2 other brothers. + Show Spoiler + His first arrested brother Hasan Kulac, director of the naval procurement and his second brother Hüseyin Kulaç, a member of the Turkish supreme court. Hüseyin Kulaç marries the sister of İstanbul Depute Chief Public Prosecutor Cihan Kansız, a prosecutor famous with his Ergenekon and Hrant Dink cases. Kansiz was suspended and fled to Belgium. Let's have a quick look to Cihan Kansız, + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.onbesyirmibes.org/image/2013/12/26/383292.jpg) He's with Zekeriya Öz, Mehmet Berk, and Mehmet Baransu (do you remember Baransu? If not, click on the spoiler button) + Show Spoiler + On May 09 2017 10:06 lastpuritan wrote: Yeah, Now you'll have some ultra religious freak generals who are directly/indirectly responsible for the deaths of 200 people, walking freely in your country without a proper investigation, because if we give them to Turkey, Turkey will be treating them bad and Erdogan is a dictator.  How nice. :D Killing Turks isn't crime against humanity you say ha? It's not Erdogan vs you guys, it's whole Turkey vs you, because all the other parties united against the Gulenist threat but again, you folks know BETTER than us... Germany will be hated for being a PKK and Gulenist hive even after Erdogan, and it's all because the two are the Turkey's weak spots. Do you see any AKP flags in this picture? + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://im.haberturk.com/2016/08/07/1278173_c8f947cdf0a2280d0d548da0c9f99eaa_640x640.jpg) However, as long as they are away from Turkey, poisoning other willing societies and we can block their influence in TR, that's okay. As for the judges, they put hundreds of secular military officials in jail for years without proper evidence or with fabricated evidence, even Erdogan opposed those judges and asked for trials without their arrest. They were put in jail for years because GULEN wanted it. NONE OF THESE HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN YOUR MEDIA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32136809 https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2015/05/07/evidence-gulenist-figure-baransu-presented-in-coup-plot-case-definitely-fabricated Have you heard about football club Fenerbahce and matchfixing scandal? Same judges, fabricated voice tapes, now Fenerbahce is seeking compensation, their trial is also dropped. https://www.dailysabah.com/investigations/2017/02/20/tense-start-to-feto-match-fixing-plot-trial Same assholes everywhere, behind the every major trial, same journalists, same judges, same prosecutors, with same apps in their phones.. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-intelligence-unveils-secret-codes-used-before-coup-attempt.aspx?PageID=238&NID=103843&NewsCatID=409 Baransu when asked, with a big smile on his face, he said he found a black suitcase in front of his door one day, and that was his source. That was before his arrest, on a TV show. I would explain them all but I'm pretty sure you aren't interested because what was it, Erdo is a DICTATOR! Baransu was fabricating evidence against non-obeying people to Gulen, Mehmet Berk, Zekeriya ÖZ and Cihan Kansız was switching the cases between each other. http://web.hurriyetdailynews.com/new-prosecutors-broaden-ergenekon-investigation-on-many-fronts.aspx?pageID=438&n=new-prosecutors-broadens-ergenekon-investigation-on-many-fronts-2011-05-01 The newly appointed top Ergenekon prosecutor is broadening the investigation after announcing several new demands on Friday. Prosecutor Cihan Kansız was appointed head of the judiciary’s Ergenekon investigation last month, replacing Zekeriya Öz, who was promoted to serve as deputy to Istanbul’s chief public prosecutor. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/fenerbahce-chairman-acquitted-on-all-charges-in-match-fixing-case.aspx?pageID=238&nID=89673&NewsCatID=361 The match-fixing probe was originally launched by Zekeriya Öz, one of the prosecutors involved in the December 2013 graft investigation targeting key cabinet members. Öz has since been investigated as part of government attempts to target sympathizers of U.S.-based Islamic scholar Fethullah Gülen. He fled to Armenia in August with a colleague after an arrest warrant was issued regarding both judicial figures. https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2014/12/17/yildirim-files-complaint-against-officials-in-matchfixing-case Prosecutor Mehmet Berk, who looked into the match fixing case, had reportedly told Yıldırım during his interrogation that the match-fixing case that rocked Turkish football was a "minor operation." "We'll conduct larger operations in which you will witness the arrests of high profile people," the prosecutor reportedly told Yıldırım, a statement that is interpreted by many as a sign of Dec. 17 and Dec. 25 operations, in which Gülenist infiltrators in the judiciary and police department had allegedly tried toppling the ruling government. Now you'll ask, why should I care a guy named Zekeriya Öz if you're not giving me his direct links to Gulen, again it will be too naive. Every Turk knows he was Gulenist, but let me hint you this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam's_Army http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=turkish-police-raids-printing-house-erases-unpublished-book-2011-03-24 A journalist named Ahmet Şık wrote a book about Gülenists and exposed their links, the book was banned by Zekeriya Öz, and Ahmet Şık was detained. On 26 August 2011 İstanbul prosecutor Cihan Kansız sent a 134-page indictment on 14 defendants, 12 of them in pre-trial detention to the newly founded Istanbul Heavy Penal Court 16. One of the imprisoned defendants was Ahmet Şık.[9] The charges included membership or support of an armed organization and incitement to hatred and enmity. Ahmet Şık was charged with support of an armed organization.[10] On 13 September 2011 Istanbul Heavy Penal Court 16 decided that the trial would start on 22 November 2011.[11] Funny it's again our Cihan Kansız, brother in law of the our troll colonel's brother. Back to the brothers: Hasan Kulaç in his testimony: "Tuğgeneral İrfan Arabacı ‘Emir komuta zinciri içinde ülke genelinde sıkıyönetim ilan edildi’ dedi. Derhal birliğe gelin’ diye mesaj çekti. Benim için Fetullah Gülen ilkokul mezunu bir vaizdir. Ben işyerinde namaz kılmam, ancak evime gittiğimde namazlarımı kılarım. Bu darbe girişimini Akın Öztürk ve ekibinin gerçekleştirdiğini düşünüyorum. Fetullah Gülen yapılanmasıyla irtibatlı olabilirler." I paste in Turkish so that you can check, but in short he says "some general named İrfan Arabacı texted me that they are staging a coup, ordered us to back to the bases, Fetullah Gulen is an uneducated cleric for me, I don't do prayers in army, I do prayers in my home. I do think this coup is planned by Akın Öztürk and his team and they are linked to the Fetullah Gulen." I won't explain Akın Öztürk but Hasan Kulaç makes a smart move in the court, blames him and hopes for the best. Because Akın Öztürk was suspected for Gulen ties by the same court but evidence showes us he kinda realized the coup is being planned and acted like as if he's helping the overthrow the government, but in reality he was helping the Turkish officials, chief of the General Staff acknowledges that. (he was taken as hostage and rescued by the Turkish forces later on, he in his testimony said the people who captured him offered a SKYPE conversation with their opinion leader Fetullah Gulen and he refused) General Hulusi Akar is a well known secular Turk by the way. Had enough? On May 10 2017 13:12 m4ini wrote: Actually, yeah. That's exactly how it works. You're even citing "international laws" which i'm sure you have no idea about and have nothing to do with the asylum process. Ever heard the term "political refugee"? Can't be political refugees. If the soldiers were participating the coup, you can't grant them asylum. They did commit crime against humanity and you can't change this fact no matter how much you're butthurt to Erdogan. Just have a look at the other world, our cute RT and their members in comments section: https://www.rt.com/news/387630-turkish-troops-asylum-germany/ "Germany taking in US agents who were paid traitors to their own country." - "...as the EU, the NATO alliance is controlled for some few countries, and the alliance works for their interest only, the rest of the allies are irrelevant and nobody cares about the interest of those remaining countries, like Turkey. ...they should leave the NATO alliance while having some honor yet." comes from Carlos Perez lmao. History is being written and good parts of the world is content to hear Nato has major conflicts within its entity. You and your liberal values are destroying our peaceful future while dishonoring everything about being allies. It's already an act of war to grant asylum to terrorists, the US would already bomb the shit out of you guys if you dared to grant asylum to Bin Laden, and you would not be THIS COCKY to say "HEY BUSH, OSAMA WAS YOUR GUY AND WE WONT BE GIVING HIM BACK BECAUSE YOU WOULD EXECUTE HIM." Right? On May 10 2017 13:12 m4ini wrote: Guess how you decide wether or not someone has the right to political asylum. Yeah, you judge the reason they fled. In this case, your blatantly biased courtsystem, that basically fired everyone who would deem an alleged! gulenist innocent. Just a few paragraphs earlier you fucking complained about germany asking to get the sexual offender back, then you go ahead and say "face trials in their nation". Do you even realise how you argue, or is the nationalism too stronk, making you blind to your own inconsistencies? Gonna send Deniz Yuzel back, because obviously you should, by your logic, not be judging our judical system - and the "fact" that offenders should be tried in their homecountry? No? Didn't think so you hypocrite. Deniz has also Turkish passport, thank you for your insult. I wrote all of these in hopes to show other people in this thread what the Turkish government can't, with its amazingly stupid PR. I'm almost sure that none of these information have been passed to you by your global media. I'm dismissing all your claims that try to portray me as Erdoganist, I'm just a patriot for lands that grant me bread. I would be defending the US as I do for Turkey if she was in danger, and I would criticize Turkey if she was threatening world peace with evil agendas. If you let Turkey bashing go for a month or something, you may realize we're being defensive to all your doings. Don't you Germans have other stuff to do? | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On May 10 2017 14:04 Nyxisto wrote: We're not going to send people back to some country in which journalists and everybody alike get send to prison just to be never heard of again all while the dictatorial head of state purges all public offices. Turkey is no state of law any more. We probably won't send people back who flee on the grounds of political persecution just to please Erdogan who even makes Putin look like a flawless democrat at this point. This really isn't complicated lastpuritan, you seem to have lost sight of how fast Turkey is going down the shitter. Many suspended state officials, academics and army officials are back in their duties. HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT THAT? Come on, now you're comparing Erdogan to a guy who assassinates his opponents and hacks your elections on a regular basis. The propaganda against Turkey is insanely high in Germany, please come to your senses. I'm citing Baransu because he was on your famous magazine covers all the time few weeks ago. + Show Spoiler + Here: "No man in this country can arrest me is born from his mother's womb till now, don't interrupt me, everybody knows what I mean here." "I'm from Gulenist organization (angrily debating the other guy who questions where Baransu found the famous black suitcase that holds the key evidence to alleged coup plan of secular turks and turkish matchfixing evidence) I get all my info from the PARALLEL!" "Fetullah Gulen will return to Turkey in 2014, thiefs will run away from the nation." And here comes your famous liberalism that put journalist on the top of everything as if they are divine or something. Further evidence if people are interested in: If we have some old members here they will remember famous Galatasaray striker Hakan Sukur from the video, sadly, an exile gulenist as well. But a great add on to show Gulen's interest in football industry in Turkey. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6223 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 10 2017 07:36 Zaros wrote: This is why you need a Monarch who has no illusion of having any political power and won't deliberately cause a constitutional crisis. I'm sure Karl von Habsburg will gladly reclaim the Kingdom of Bohemia for his family again if the Czech people invited him. Haha, what an irony, considering how we got where we are now. In the second round, the other choice for president was Karel Schwarzenberg, from a formerly noble family, although on a lover level, but he was "unacceptable" for many voters, perceived as a half foreigner and the nobility part didn't help either. What we need is to remove all the ceremonial bullshit from the Constitution, have people have only those powers that are actually intended for them and let technicalities be handled by beaurocrats. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Chancellor to speak in half an hour. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 10 2017 19:50 Big J wrote: Conservative vice chancellor and head of the party just stepped back. We're probably heading into elections this autumn in Austria. Chancellor to speak in half an hour. You guy just like your election, don't you | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
They're the best. But in seriousness, the chancellor only made a statement thanking the former vice chancellor and adressing the foreign minister in a way that made clear that he expects him to take over the ÖVP and the post as vice chancellor and keep on working together. So no elections called yet. | ||
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