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I couldn´t bother myself to read your complete wall of text, so let me just comment on this:
On May 10 2017 15:45 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2017 13:12 m4ini wrote:
Because there's no evidence for it. Why is nobody releasing the evidence? Come on, i don't wanna hear "obviously it was him" and other bullshit that i constantly hear from turkish friends. I'd like you to show actual evidence here that points out unmistakably that gulen controlled that coup. "Erdogan said so, why would he lie" doesn't count. Documents, tapes, videos - anything that is actual proof, rather than your politicians bullshitting. Since you're so confident, shouldn't be a problem. Cheers in advance. Not my problem if you can't google, or you don't know Turkish, if you go to Turkey and say it wasn't Gulen in the public places they will probably spit in your face. It's like saying Hitler wasn't behind the termination of millions of Jewish people. We are talking about a organization who had schools in Russia, Africa, the US, Asia and all around the globe, an organization that is capable of leaking the audio recordings of top secret government-army officials' meeting, an organization that successfully listens Erdogan's phone calls, successfully destroying a football club by bribing some UEFA officials, systemically placing their followers in army since 1970's and eliminating many youth officers who don't obey them, an organization that is able to send 150 of democrat congressmen to holiday in Turkey, and according to both Russian and Turkish intelligence, an organization that has the NATO officers who downed the Russian jet, forcing Erdogan to fight a war he can't win, and probably an organization raises assassins like the one who killed the Russian ambassador.
There is a difference between something with lots of evidence (videos, documents, pictures, eye witnesses/survivers, ...) like the holocaust, which is internationally accepted (well, there are some lunatics that deny that, can´t help that) and some "turkish proven facts" that fail to convince anybody besides Erdogan´s fanboys.
Sorry, but if Erogan had convincing, solid proof, then it would be known and presented now. That failed so far. So yeah, that´s why noone believes that shit.
There is no international conspiracy against Turkey. Erdogan wants you to believe that. Plays right into his handy "we against them"-theory. Funny that noone else believes it.
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Show nested quote +On May 10 2017 13:12 m4ini wrote:
Who's guilty or not is not up to you, nor your government. It's up to the justice system, although as an erdoganist, i'm sure you wouldn't understand judging by the thousands of people who got fired/jailed without actually being charged. Not up to yours, but the Turkish justice system. (because they're turkish citizens)
You really have no grasp of how the concept of political asylum works. I will explain it very simply, and then give you an example of why it works like it did.
Let's say there is a person in Germany. He is not German, but another countries citizen.
He wants to have asylum. He claims, that if send back to his country, he will not be treated fairly. He claims that instead, he will be jailed and abused for political reasons.
At this point, this becomes Germany's problem. If we send him back, we are complicit in whatever happens to him at home. Thus, if we want to send him back, we need to make sure that he is treated fairly there.
That is the idea of political asylum. As soon as he is here, he is no longer solely the other countries problem, because when we send him back, we are complicit in whatever happens to him there. And we want to be a state of law, and not be complicit in some dictators petty abuses.
Now, for an example. Let's say there is a man from North Korea here. He claims that if send back, he will be executed by anti aircraft gun fire without a trial, because his grandfather said that Kim Jong Un looks fat. North Korea say they want him back, and since he is their citizen, they should deal with him. They also claim that he is an evil traitor.
Germany now has the choice to send him back or not. There will be a judicial examination based on the proof submitted by the North Korean government. If we were to just say "Well, he is their citizen, and thus it is their problem and their justice system should deal with it", and then send him back, we are complicit in the human rights abuse of the north korean government, and might as well just execute him by anti aircraft gun ourselves.
Thus, we do not do that. We have courts who review cases like that to see if there are merits to the claims of the foreign government. We do that to all nations. Not only turkey. There are laws that decide when we extradite people to other countries.
We only do it if the crime they are accused of is a crime in both countries
We don't do it if they are going to get tortured
We don't do it if they are in danger of the death penalty
We only do it if they are going to have a fair process
We never extradite germans, except to other EU countries or to international courts of law.
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@Simberto: I agree with most of that, but I really have to know why NK is using anti-aircraft guns to execute people?
E: ah, I googled it. Apparently NK really did use AA guns in their latest public execution. What on earth is the point?!
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Intimidation, probably. But I would choose an AA gun over a lethal injection every single time. Same for beheading. I have no idea why lethal injection is a thing.
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Cause its supposed to be "civilised".
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Execution by firing squad, or execution by AA gun. I don't really see much difference except the power of the gun. I suppose it is more visually appealing. You might as well ask why Saudi Arabia beheads people publicly with a sword or by stoning slowly to death.
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On May 11 2017 20:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Execution by firing squad, or execution by AA gun. I don't really see much difference except the power of the gun. I suppose it is more visually appealing. You might as well ask why Saudi Arabia beheads people publicly with a sword or by stoning slowly to death.
Tradition.
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Execution by gun has a long tradition as well. A larger calibre gun is a modern twist on an age old tradition; I hear it's all the rage nowadays.
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On May 11 2017 20:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Execution by firing squad, or execution by AA gun. I don't really see much difference except the power of the gun. I suppose it is more visually appealing. You might as well ask why Saudi Arabia beheads people publicly with a sword or by stoning slowly to death.
Taking a big gun that blows someone's head clean off instead of just making some small holes... hell, I'm not even sure that's true. If AA guns work like armor piercing rounds, they probably pass clean through a human body without even slowing down, so it's less impressive. But I'm not a gun expert. It just seemed weird. When rifles have been doing the job of murdering people perfectly adequately for decades.
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AA guns usually use shrapnel rounds I think, I imagine getting hit with a barrage of such shots turns a person into a pile of shredded meat and bone. Pretty gruesome way to go for sure, very useful for propaganda.
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On May 11 2017 22:10 PoulsenB wrote:
AA guns usually use shrapnel rounds I think, I imagine getting hit with a barrage of such shots turns a person into a pile of shredded meat and bone. Pretty gruesome way to go for sure, very useful for propaganda.
Well gruesome looking... but probably very humane as you are dead very quickly*.
The most humane method of execution would be to resume nuclear tests (underground for environmental reasons) and be sitting at ground zero. (also no bloody mess or intact body to clean up)
*although it almost certainly wasn't intended for being more humane, or even for propaganda, probably just "because he (kim jong) could".
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This is woefully off-topic but you have to also remember that people are forced to watch public executions in North Korea.
In any case the NK thread might be a good place to discuss it if you want to.
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I see people are refusing the read the things I posted as evidence and still playing the Erdogan card no matter what. I think you're forgetting Turkey is a 75 mil country and I'm stressing that for like 3 times already, and non Erdoganists as well believe the coup attempt was done by the Gulenists. I also say fleeing top rank military people can't be granted political asylum because they did commit crimes against humanity. I would like to hear people destroying my post with the evidences in it or else you're being repetitive Do you have anything else besides saying Erdogan is dictator, Erdogan is jailing journalists, Erdogan is deceiving Turkey, Erdogan is destroying once a beautiful country, Erdogan wants you to believe, Erdogan this, Erdogan that? Come on, I've been hearing these for like 5 years already. Let's move on to the new things, try something else, different approach?
You may think that your great nation does no evil to other countries, Merkel is a liberal angel who only wants to save refugees with good intentions and only miss-calculates the outcomes of it, she has no agenda towards Turkey, her only mistake was trusting Turkey with refugee deal, we should be like taking refugees somewhere else just to bash more Turkeys! Turkey is producing BS to get nationalist votes.... But still, what I see from outside:
- A Germany spies Turkey and doesn't deny it.
- A Germany passes genocide recognition on her congress out of nowhere just to slap Turkey.
- A Germany that arms YPG-PKK
- A Germany that bans Turkish rallies and act like she didn't (and said it's illegal even in your laws while its not.)
- A Germany lets PKK rallies and HQ's in her towns, bans PKK banner, still cant prevent them waving.
- A Germany to block free visa even though Turkey deserved it, been your lapdog and held millions of refugees just to keep you happy in your towns while we deal with ARMED SYRIAN GANGS in İstanbul and other stuff that would take another wall of text to write. They even raped a young boy in mosque and killed her mother. When we close the borders, Germany slams us hard. AND I'M NOT adding how heavy they are to the Turkish economy, 1 millions in Germany, a developed county, 4 registered, 2 non registered in Turkey, developing country.
- A Germany asks for Kurdish rights but doesn't grant any rights to Turks, like education in mother language, official recognition of Turkish language in their constitution etc.
- A Germany to trust more to Russians of 21% and trusts her Nato ally Turkey 3% according to the polls, as if we're gonna nuke you one day.
- A Germany constantly publishing news abt Turkey, newspapers waging the most bullshit propaganda I've ever seen, like we publicly laugh you when you demanded the release of Mehmet Baransu, the most anti-akp TR poeple were like quite shocked to hear. : D
- A Germany accusing Turkey over possibility of people getting lost in Turkey if returned, but somehow loses track of 10k Syrian kids.
- Are you hearing any churches getting destroyed in Turkey, but I'm reading once a month a mosque is getting burnt, a turk publicly faces racism, and most importantly, a Germany has soldiers who plot terrorists attacks to own people, just to flame racism, and it's being accepted as LONE WOLF whilst it would be shown as ERDOGAN'S EVIL PLAN if that was in TR.
We have lots of reasons to suspect your friendship, but NONE to trust it. I think Turkey will be quitting NATO and the main reason will be the US and Germany, if that makes you content about the future.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On May 12 2017 11:39 lastpuritan wrote:
I also say fleeing top rank military people can't be granted political asylum because they did commit crimes against humanity. I would like to hear people destroying my post with the evidences in it or else you're being repetitive
That's not how it works. If you claim they committed crimes against humanity it's up to you to provide evidence. I have my doubts you even know what crimes against humanity are though.
Nobody is engaging with you on this board because you are not engaging in any discussion. Simberto explained to you how asylum works. Instead of addressing his post you dump a long list of things you don't like about Germany.
It's your usual posting pattern. People address what you write, in response you dump a giant gish gallop of unrelated incoherence into the thread. As long as you continue to do so no one will be willing to engage with you in conversation here.
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On May 12 2017 11:39 lastpuritan wrote:
I see people are refusing the read the things I posted as evidence and still playing the Erdogan card no matter what. I think you're forgetting Turkey is a 75 mil country and I'm stressing that for like 3 times already, and non Erdoganists as well believe the coup attempt was done by the Gulenists. I also say fleeing top rank military people can't be granted political asylum because they did commit crimes against humanity. I would like to hear people destroying my post with the evidences in it or else you're being repetitive Do you have anything else besides saying Erdogan is dictator, Erdogan is jailing journalists, Erdogan is deceiving Turkey, Erdogan is destroying once a beautiful country, Erdogan wants you to believe, Erdogan this, Erdogan that? Come on, I've been hearing these for like 5 years already. Let's move on to the new things, try something else, different approach?
Okay, how about Erdogan bathes in the blood of virgins? But in all seriousness, your answer to all of those serious accusations is that you've heard them before and they are therefore unimportant. Because Erdogan is jailing journalists (one of many sources), and the rest are opinions, but imho pretty on point.
You may think that your great nation does no evil to other countries, Merkel is a liberal angel who only wants to save refugees with good intentions and only miss-calculates the outcomes of it, she has no agenda towards Turkey, her only mistake was trusting Turkey with refugee deal, we should be like taking refugees somewhere else just to bash more Turkeys! Turkey is producing BS to get nationalist votes.... But still, what I see from outside:
You'll find plenty of people here criticizing Merkel. But nice whataboutism. We're not criticizing Turkey because he's the worst president ever, we're criticizing him because he's bad. Doesn't matter at all whether Merkel is just as bad (and just for the record, she isn't... not even in the same league).
- A Germany spies Turkey and doesn't deny it.
Allies spying on one another is kind of a thing this century, but gathering intel in a country that is systematically removing independent press seems like a rather sane thing to do. So this is a good thing.
- A Germany passes genocide recognition on her congress out of nowhere just to slap Turkey.
Great. Maybe acknowledge that nasty skeleton that's in your closet and move on, instead of trying to rewrite history. Another point for Germany.
- A Germany that arms YPG-PKK
This is a bad idea. But it's not like the Syrian war has any good solutions. They are, imho a hell of a lot better than either Assad or ISIS, so that makes the YPG a rather unreliable ally, but for now, an ally.
- A Germany that bans Turkish rallies and act like she didn't (and said it's illegal even in your laws while its not.)
Fake news.
- A Germany lets PKK rallies and HQ's in her towns, bans PKK banner, still cant prevent them waving.
Yeah. They also don't crackdown on people waving swastikas at neo-nazi rallies. It's almost as if free speech is important.
- A Germany to block free visa even though Turkey deserved it, been your lapdog and held millions of refugees just to keep you happy in your towns while we deal with ARMED SYRIAN GANGS in İstanbul and other stuff that would take another wall of text to write. They even raped a young boy in mosque and killed her mother. When we close the borders, Germany slams us hard. AND I'M NOT adding how heavy they are to the Turkish economy, 1 millions in Germany, a developed county, 4 registered, 2 non registered in Turkey, developing country.
Incoherent word salad. But you seem to be complaining that most of the refugees from the Syrian conflict are fleeing across land borders into neighbouring countries, who don't have the means to deal with tgat. It's a tragedy. I agree. But what does Germany have to do with that? The best would be to work towards an end to the Syrian war asap, so all those people can go back home and try to rebuild their country.
- A Germany asks for Kurdish rights but doesn't grant any rights to Turks, like education in mother language, official recognition of Turkish language in their constitution etc.
Huh? Kurds didn't migrate to Kurdistan. They've been there for centuries. Context matters when looking at cultural rights. Maybe if Germany has still done a terrible job of integrating immigrant Turks into German society in another 150 years, we can revisit this point.
- A Germany to trust more to Russians of 21% and trusts her Nato ally Turkey 3% according to the polls, as if we're gonna nuke you one day.
And why do you care about German opinion polls?
- A Germany constantly publishing news abt Turkey, newspapers waging the most bullshit propaganda I've ever seen, like we publicly laugh you when you demanded the release of Mehmet Baransu, the most anti-akp TR poeple were like quite shocked to hear. : D
Being anti-akp should not be a crime. Freedom of speech and all that. So yeah, he should be released unless he actually committed a crime, which he didn't, afaik. Another point for Germany.
- A Germany accusing Turkey over possibility of people getting lost in Turkey if returned, but somehow loses track of 10k Syrian kids.
Yeah, there's a double standard. The unaccompanied child refugees are not solely Germany's responsibility. Most have gone missing without setting foot in Germany. But the EU needs to do a better job, before accusing it's neighbours. First point you make that I agree with.
- Are you hearing any churches getting destroyed in Turkey, but I'm reading once a month a mosque is getting burnt, a turk publicly faces racism, and most importantly, a Germany has soldiers who plot terrorists attacks to own people, just to flame racism, and it's being accepted as LONE WOLF whilst it would be shown as ERDOGAN'S EVIL PLAN if that was in TR.
Stop drinking the Infowars koolaid. There's no conspiracy plot.
We have lots of reasons to suspect your friendship, but NONE to trust it. I think Turkey will be quitting NATO and the main reason will be the US and Germany, if that makes you content about the future.
Not really. I'm not quite sure why your hated of Germany is so big. You have plenty of enemies far closer to home to worry about. Turkey leaving NATO seems like it'll really hurt Turkey. But hey, to each their own.
Anyway, I'll now go back to not reading your posts, because this about as weird a jumble of accusations and whataboutism as I can stand.
TL DR. There's plenty wrong with Germany. Mostly not the things you mention, but they're definitely not faultless. But that doesn't have any relation to the problems in Turkey. Which are very real, starting with the lack of press freedom, and Erdogan's other totalitarian traits.
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On May 12 2017 15:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +
- A Germany lets PKK rallies and HQ's in her towns, bans PKK banner, still cant prevent them waving.
Yeah. They also don't crackdown on people waving swastikas at neo-nazi rallies. It's almost as if free speech is important.
While I generally agree with you post, small correction here. You will be cracked down for wearing swastikas. Seriously! Don't try it!
And the main difference is that wearing Swastikas is unconstitutional. Waving flags of the PKK is simply unlawful.
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What is the base upon which is the PKK flag unlawful in Germany? Is it consider a terrorist organisation and thus some law about not supporting terrorist organisations applies? If so, why do you accept its designation as a terrorist organisation which is a political move made by Turkey?
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On May 12 2017 18:54 opisska wrote:
What is the base upon which is the PKK flag unlawful in Germany? Is it consider a terrorist organisation and thus some law about not supporting terrorist organisations applies? If so, why do you accept its designation as a terrorist organisation which is a political move made by Turkey?
Germany hasn't individually listed the PKK as terror organisation, but it is designated as such by the EU and by the NATO, which in consequence is binding for Germany.
Also the German Verfassungsschutz ("constitutional guard" ?) is highly critical of it and its judgement gives absolutely no reason to change the PKK's status. And lastly, "Die Linke" (leftist party) tried to get the PKK off the list few years ago, but this was struck down by the German parliament.
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On May 12 2017 18:54 opisska wrote:
What is the base upon which is the PKK flag unlawful in Germany? Is it consider a terrorist organisation and thus some law about not supporting terrorist organisations applies? If so, why do you accept its designation as a terrorist organisation which is a political move made by Turkey?
PKK used to be terroristically active. Nothing wrong with accepting that reality. Whether or not that is still the proper way to look at it, given that some times has passed and given other interests of our souvereign states that may be up for reevaluation eventually. Can't really hold a people's freedom movement in hardly democratic states like Turkey or Syria responsible for defending their lives nowadays. In particular given that they seem to be a somewhat reliable partner fighting ISIS, which you can't say about many other warlords like Erdogan or Assad in that region and conflict.
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Zurich15365 Posts
In addition to the designation as a terrorist organization by the EU and by Germany, the PKK is also considered a criminal organization in Germany.
It is in no way legal in Germany. Additionally, a whole host of organizations and symbols connected to the PKK including Ocalan face in political context are banned in Germany.
What lastpuritan is referring to is a rallye in Cologne last year, that was not broken up by the police when PKK banners were shown. To me that's a judgement call on proportionality that could go either way. Either way, the people showing the banners were caught on video and charged afterwards.
And, it should be pointed out, the decision to not break up the rallye has also been criticized in Germany.
What lastpuritan is conveniently not mentioning is that there are hundred of people processed each year for connection with the PKK and dozens convicted.
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EPT
