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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On March 22 2017 08:58 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2017 07:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 22 2017 07:25 Velr wrote:What could you do except forbid politicians from ever working in and with the private sector again? Well, just kill or jail them once they leave office  ? Not that i like the practise but well, hard to do anything against it. France has a system for that. The ENA is a school that forms hauts fonctionnaires (high level civil servants) and a lot of politicians. If you are from the ENA and don't get reelected, you simply get hired again as a diplomat, a finance inspector or something. It has many flaws, but is a great way to make sure that the collusion between corporate interests and politics are kept as separated as possible. Honestly, that seems even worse. A school that "forms" high level civil servants and politicians? So instead of joining "the swamp" you already go to school in it if you want to become a politician/high level civic servant (what does that even mean). This stuff works in Switzerland pretty much like "normal" Jobs - aside from diplomats/ambassadors? Don't you create something like a "political caste" with a system like that?
Yes, you do, and it's criticized for that.
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It's also a good way to make sure our politicians have no idea what they're talking about, because they've never worked outside of politics. This school is a disaster.
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On March 22 2017 08:58 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2017 07:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 22 2017 07:25 Velr wrote:What could you do except forbid politicians from ever working in and with the private sector again? Well, just kill or jail them once they leave office ? Not that i like the practise but well, hard to do anything against it. France has a system for that. The ENA is a school that forms hauts fonctionnaires (high level civil servants) and a lot of politicians. If you are from the ENA and don't get reelected, you simply get hired again as a diplomat, a finance inspector or something. It has many flaws, but is a great way to make sure that the collusion between corporate interests and politics are kept as separated as possible. Honestly, that seems even worse. A school that "forms" high level civil servants and politicians? So instead of joining "the swamp" you already go to school in it if you want to become a politician/high level civic servant (what does that even mean). This stuff works in Switzerland pretty much like "normal" Jobs - aside from diplomats/ambassadors? Don't you create something like a "political caste" with a system like that?
It works surprisingly well. French civil servants have been amongst the best of the world for 60 years, and the systemic links between corporations and the political class are actually kept to a minimum compared to most countries.
Again, it's not perfect, and yes, it gives a lot of bullets to populists to talk about the "swamp" and the "elite". But there is no swamp. If anything our worst politicians (Sarkozy to start with) are the ones who didn't go to the ENA and that come and are linked to the private sector.
I don't like our top politicians, but I have the utmost respect for our second thier political class and our civil servants in general. All the ones I've met are extremely well educated and highly competent people.
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On March 22 2017 20:57 nojok wrote:
It's also a good way to make sure our politicians have no idea what they're talking about, because they've never worked outside of politics. This school is a disaster.
I don't want so say I disagree, but we have a prominent example that the other way around is not working either
My personal opinion is that we do need professional politicians because the problems they deal with are, simply put, really complex. No way around it. From healthcare via pensions to climat change, immigration and war.
There arn't very many easy solutions that actually solve problems anymore.
Of course they need a very down to earth staff and advisory team to keep in touch with realities of ordinary people.
One of the main problems is that the process of gaining a position with influence is often determined by working in politics for years and years, at least from my experience with the Greens in Berlin, Germany. I'd much rather work in administration or as an advisor on a specific topic than be a politician myself.
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Paris (AFP) - French conservative presidential candidate Francois Fillon's legal problems deepened on Tuesday, with financial prosecutors expanding a probe into payments to his family to suspected "aggravated fraud, forgery and use of forgeries", a judicial source said. Investigators are probing whether Fillon and his wife Penelope forged documents to try to justify around 700,000 euros ($757,000) she earned for a suspected fake job as a parliamentary assistant, the source said. The news came as Socialist Interior Minister Bruno Le Roux resigned after revelations that he had hired his two teenage daughters as parliamentary aides, prompting comparisons to Fillon's scandal. (...) Source
2016 US campaign: nothing can be worse than me!
2017 French campaign: + Show Spoiler +
Oh by the way, this is why I despise right-wing social-democrats:
The head of the eurozone’s finance ministers has been criticised for stating that southern European countries blew their money on “drinks and women”. Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch finance minister who leads the group, made the comments in an interview on Monday with German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ). (...) Source
Mr. Social-chauvinist didn't digest his 29 lost seats? He should consider joining Wilders, his xenophobic statements would best be employed there.
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On March 22 2017 20:57 nojok wrote:
It's also a good way to make sure our politicians have no idea what they're talking about, because they've never worked outside of politics. This school is a disaster.
Have you met anyone who has been to the ENA?
I think you are better trained to serve the country by studying in a super high level school that teaches you economics, sociology, political science and so on and starting your career as a diplomat or a finance inspector, than by being a corporate lawyer, an investment banker or some goon in the high chain of managment of some CAC40 company. Because that's the alternative really.
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On March 22 2017 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2017 08:58 Velr wrote:On March 22 2017 07:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 22 2017 07:25 Velr wrote:What could you do except forbid politicians from ever working in and with the private sector again? Well, just kill or jail them once they leave office ? Not that i like the practise but well, hard to do anything against it. France has a system for that. The ENA is a school that forms hauts fonctionnaires (high level civil servants) and a lot of politicians. If you are from the ENA and don't get reelected, you simply get hired again as a diplomat, a finance inspector or something. It has many flaws, but is a great way to make sure that the collusion between corporate interests and politics are kept as separated as possible. Honestly, that seems even worse. A school that "forms" high level civil servants and politicians? So instead of joining "the swamp" you already go to school in it if you want to become a politician/high level civic servant (what does that even mean). This stuff works in Switzerland pretty much like "normal" Jobs - aside from diplomats/ambassadors? Don't you create something like a "political caste" with a system like that? It works surprisingly well. French civil servants have been amongst the best of the world for 60 years, and the systemic links between corporations and the political class are actually kept to a minimum compared to most countries. Again, it's not perfect, and yes, it gives a lot of bullets to populists to talk about the "swamp" and the "elite". But there is no swamp. If anything our worst politicians (Sarkozy to start with) are the ones who didn't go to the ENA and that come and are linked to the private sector.
Well, Hollande comes from the ENA... Macron too. There's also the problem of revolving doors. Too many ENA people end up working in private banks. That's not how it's supposed to work.
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United States2772 Posts
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Yup, they're among the rare French journalists who actually do their counter-power job. It helps that journalists themselves own the newspaper, which is completely ad-free (yet their financial results are good). They barely have an Internet site. They celebrated their 100 years a few months ago.  The most impressive institution of French journalism.
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Goddamnit, we need something like that here in the US 
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On March 22 2017 19:00 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2017 09:37 Big J wrote:On March 22 2017 08:42 bardtown wrote:On March 22 2017 07:21 Big J wrote:On March 22 2017 02:54 LegalLord wrote:
I think an underappreciated reality is that all the populists are different. Not just PiS vs UKIP/FN, but each one of those is different from each other, and are different from Italy, Germany, Greece, etc. Different countries, different populists. They mostly just have a few sentiments in common: anti-immigration, less friendly toward Europe, and they tend to be regarded as liars and fools. But beyond that they have many differences. Think of it this way: When the left-right view was first introduced, it described how seats were taken in the French parliament after the revolution. The first right-wingers were monarchists. Later on the coherent theme of the right was about opposing socialism, which viewed itself as "the new progressive ideology" (and which they quite overdid from a conservative view, often making them progressives of a different kind: liberals, although they often would claim that we have had very liberal economic systems in the past, so it would be a conservative act to introduce more liberal systems). In our modern days in which many things that used to be created by progressive powers, the true right-wingers will obviously also protect such concepts or even try to reintroduce them. Because that is what a true winger does, religiously trying to bring back a version of the past. That this has to differ between states and their self-inflicted propaganda machines is only natural. They all want to load different safegames of their own country. This is a teleological interpretation, and that's not a good thing. It is not about progression or the past. It is a distinction between people who believe in natural orders (the right) and people who believe in social systems limiting natural orders (the left). Liberalism (economic) is inherently right wing because if you leave people to their own devices they create hierarchies organically. Conservatism is coincidentally right wing because the systems of the past were hierarchical. I can't really come up with a response, because I cannot see how one would go about splitting the artifical laws of people into "natural" and "unnatural" ones. that human nature argument ties in really well with his British Empire one.
Which British Empire one?
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On March 22 2017 21:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2017 20:57 nojok wrote:
It's also a good way to make sure our politicians have no idea what they're talking about, because they've never worked outside of politics. This school is a disaster. Have you met anyone who has been to the ENA? I think you are better trained to serve the country by studying in a super high level school that teaches you economics, sociology, political science and so on and starting your career as a diplomat or a finance inspector, than by being a corporate lawyer, an investment banker or some goon in the high chain of managment of some CAC40 company. Because that's the alternative really.
What makes you feel like france is doing any better than other western european countries/scandinavian countries?
Your politics are, arguably more than most others, scandal ridden.
Your problems with domestic integration and terrorism seem bigger than anywhere else in western europe.
Many of your old towns look like they haven't seen a dime spent on maintenance (or just plain paint) for decades if they are not considered touristic or representative....
I spent 3 months in France, i like it, but some stuff just made me shake my head in disbelief, among this was the behaviour of your politicians and how you let your small towns rot (and the constant stupid striking).
Btw: calling someone a career politician is an often used attack line in swiss politics against people that get into parlament directly from the universities or that have never worked as anything in the private sector. Its also not just lawyers and bankers, far from it.
Well, as nyxisto said our countries probably sit on opposite sides of the professionalism scale when it cones to politics and both seem to work .
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On March 22 2017 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2017 08:58 Velr wrote:On March 22 2017 07:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 22 2017 07:25 Velr wrote:What could you do except forbid politicians from ever working in and with the private sector again? Well, just kill or jail them once they leave office ? Not that i like the practise but well, hard to do anything against it. France has a system for that. The ENA is a school that forms hauts fonctionnaires (high level civil servants) and a lot of politicians. If you are from the ENA and don't get reelected, you simply get hired again as a diplomat, a finance inspector or something. It has many flaws, but is a great way to make sure that the collusion between corporate interests and politics are kept as separated as possible. Honestly, that seems even worse. A school that "forms" high level civil servants and politicians? So instead of joining "the swamp" you already go to school in it if you want to become a politician/high level civic servant (what does that even mean). This stuff works in Switzerland pretty much like "normal" Jobs - aside from diplomats/ambassadors? Don't you create something like a "political caste" with a system like that? It works surprisingly well. French civil servants have been amongst the best of the world for 60 years, and the systemic links between corporations and the political class are actually kept to a minimum compared to most countries. Again, it's not perfect, and yes, it gives a lot of bullets to populists to talk about the "swamp" and the "elite". But there is no swamp. If anything our worst politicians (Sarkozy to start with) are the ones who didn't go to the ENA and that come and are linked to the private sector. I don't like our top politicians, but I have the utmost respect for our second thier political class and our civil servants in general. All the ones I've met are extremely well educated and highly competent people.
kinda agree with your pov, it goes well for the second tier of civil servant (which represent the majority)
don't know if it was mentioned before, but you also have to do a public test to enter in any public administration, dunno if it's the same in other countries
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United States2772 Posts
On March 22 2017 22:00 Makro wrote:
don't know if it was mentioned before, but you also have to do a public test to enter in any public administration, dunno if it's the same in other countries
We'd never have that in America, requiring knowledge to hold office would obliterate almost our entire elected government.
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Dijsselbloem, president of the Eurogroup which is the euro zone's group of finance ministers, said in an interview to a German newspaper on Monday that "during the crisis of the euro, the countries of the North have shown solidarity with the countries affected by the crisis."
He added: "As a Social Democrat, I attribute exceptional importance to solidarity. (But) you also have obligations. You cannot spend all the money on drinks and women and then ask for help."
However, the Dutch politician refused to apologize for such comments, saying these were not directed to one country, but to all countries. He also added that asking for fiscal discipline should not be seen as an attack.
It's rude and possibly wrong but don't you think calling it chauvinist or xenophobic is an exaggeration?
Dijsselbloem's reaction sparked a revolt among south European politicians. Former Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi said Wednesday on Facebook that Dijsselbloem lost a good opportunity to be quiet on Tuesday and added that the sooner he resigns the better.
On Tuesday night, members of the Spanish and Portuguese governments also voiced their disapproval for such comments and asked for Dijsselbloem's resignation.
Luis de Guindos, the Spanish Finance minister, who has tried to gain control Dijsselbloem's seat in the Eurogroup, said the comments were unfortunate and he would hope Dijsselbloem had regretted making them.
Wow these guys are angry. I'd be angry too but wouldn't think he's insulting my nation/culture. He's clearly talking about southern governments. Source
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On March 22 2017 22:15 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +Dijsselbloem, president of the Eurogroup which is the euro zone's group of finance ministers, said in an interview to a German newspaper on Monday that "during the crisis of the euro, the countries of the North have shown solidarity with the countries affected by the crisis."
He added: "As a Social Democrat, I attribute exceptional importance to solidarity. (But) you also have obligations. You cannot spend all the money on drinks and women and then ask for help."
However, the Dutch politician refused to apologize for such comments, saying these were not directed to one country, but to all countries. He also added that asking for fiscal discipline should not be seen as an attack. It's rude and possibly wrong but don't you think calling it chauvinist or xenophobic is an exaggeration?
Nope, those are exactly the appropriate terms. This myth of serious, virtuous Northern people who work hard to respect the rules while Southern folks are lazy bastards who spend everything while doing nothing and living the dolce vita is nothing short of disgusting. And that was one of the mainstream narratives used to explain the crisis of the eurozone, with clear undertones of culturalist racism (the Ant and the Grasshopper...). Remember the PIGS acronym for Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain? Add the classic reference to alcohol and the picture is complete: not only does he consider others as inferiors and irresponsible, but this imaginary is deeply rooted in class contempt for the the poor. Talking like that when you claim to be left-wing is a disgrace.
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The comments come “from a tough Dutch Calvinistic culture, with Dutch directness,” he said in the Hague on Wednesday. “I understand that this is not always well understood and appreciated elsewhere in Europa. That is another lesson I have to learn. The comment on drink and women was about myself. I said that I cannot expect to spend my money in a wrong way and then ask for financial support.”
www.bloomberg.com
That's his own explanation for what he said. I think people are overreacting to what he said but w/e. Imo he should quit soon anyway since he won't be finance minister for long.
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On March 22 2017 21:47 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2017 21:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 22 2017 20:57 nojok wrote:
It's also a good way to make sure our politicians have no idea what they're talking about, because they've never worked outside of politics. This school is a disaster. Have you met anyone who has been to the ENA? I think you are better trained to serve the country by studying in a super high level school that teaches you economics, sociology, political science and so on and starting your career as a diplomat or a finance inspector, than by being a corporate lawyer, an investment banker or some goon in the high chain of managment of some CAC40 company. Because that's the alternative really. What makes you feel like france is doing any better than other western european countries/scandinavian countries? Your politics are, arguably more than most others, scandal ridden. Your problems with domestic integration and terrorism seem bigger than anywhere else in western europe. Many of your old towns look like they haven't seen a dime spent on maintenance (or just plain paint) for decades if they are not considered touristic or representative.... I spent 3 months in France, i like it, but some stuff just made me shake my head in disbelief, among this was the behaviour of your politicians and how you let your small towns rot (and the constant stupid striking). Btw: calling someone a career politician is an often used attack line in swiss politics against people that get into parlament directly from the universities or that have never worked as anything in the private sector. Its also not just lawyers and bankers, far from it. Well, as nyxisto said our countries probably sit on opposite sides of the professionalism scale when it cones to politics and both seem to work .
Oh, France has many problems, no doubt.
But I have a great respect for our civil servants and I think that this system of recruiting politicians amongst them is a very good idea. They have somewhere else to go if they get beaten in an election than the private sector, and they are very well formed.
What the ENA system provides is not people that won't ever generate scandals: it rather makes sure that the links between big corporations and politics are as light as possible, because ENA politicians are above all public servants. That makes a lot of sense.
By the way, I don't understand this populist hatred towards politicians. Many career politicians are great people. I met a guy once who was the ghost writer of a prominent minister. He told me that while the very very top politicians were a bunch of clowns these days, people working below them were of an incredible quality, and sincerely I can believe it.
One last thing: France is not Switzerland. We are a bigger, poorer and messier country, closer to Italy than to Sweden in our mentalities. The fact that France is not a clusterfuck of corruption and inefficiency like our southern neighbours says a lot about the solidity and the design of our institutions.
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On March 23 2017 01:43 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +The comments come “from a tough Dutch Calvinistic culture, with Dutch directness,” he said in the Hague on Wednesday. “I understand that this is not always well understood and appreciated elsewhere in Europa. That is another lesson I have to learn. The comment on drink and women was about myself. I said that I cannot expect to spend my money in a wrong way and then ask for financial support.” www.bloomberg.comThat's his own explanation for what he said. I think people are overreacting to what he said but w/e. Imo he should quit soon anyway since he won't be finance minister for long.
Everything always gets overreacted to. But it was a stupid comment to make in the first place and he really should have known better.
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On March 22 2017 21:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2017 20:57 nojok wrote:
It's also a good way to make sure our politicians have no idea what they're talking about, because they've never worked outside of politics. This school is a disaster. Have you met anyone who has been to the ENA? I think you are better trained to serve the country by studying in a super high level school that teaches you economics, sociology, political science and so on and starting your career as a diplomat or a finance inspector, than by being a corporate lawyer, an investment banker or some goon in the high chain of managment of some CAC40 company. Because that's the alternative really.
I can agree they're surely good at many things but they don't know the life of the average citizen, let alone the poor citizen. Therefore I don't trust them to take the best decisions for the majority of us, as shown by their history as President. They should remain gears, not decision-makers.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://legacy.blavity.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/DaVonnewalkingin.gif)
