On June 15 2016 15:30 xM(Z wrote:
he's a functional socialist; only functioning 4-5 hours a day.
he's a functional socialist; only functioning 4-5 hours a day.
I only work four days a week tho.
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
June 15 2016 06:41 GMT
#9701
On June 15 2016 15:30 xM(Z wrote: he's a functional socialist; only functioning 4-5 hours a day. I only work four days a week tho. | ||
Ghostcom
Denmark4776 Posts
June 15 2016 20:10 GMT
#9702
On June 15 2016 13:59 WhiteDog wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2016 09:57 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 09:34 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 08:17 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote: Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question: If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this. The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest? It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ? Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years. France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later. I'm not saying the saying is correct, I used it to showcase how generalizations are largely uninformed and that your statement "Democracy so good in Europe" was stupid since you could at best have said "Democracy so good in France" based on your "data". In fact you seem to repeatedly show a great deal of ignorance of Europe outside of France (no, the rest of Europe are not sheeple, get a grip) That the law was written by a non-French person is not in itself a detriment to it - at least showcase how it fails to serve the interest of the French. I'm asking with an open mind for you to explain what you find stupid about the law, if you are unable to do so, fine. I said "democracy so good in Europe" mainly because the law is a european recommandation, obviously. There are tons of things about the law : they partly removed what was problematic as the movement increased, but one key element stays - the article 2 of the law. It's a change in the hierarchy of norm, which means that, if the article is accepted, laws at the national level could be replaced by negociation directly at the firm level (which was already the case in specific situation, now it would be the case whatever the situation). This is virtually similar to a complete overhaul of our labor rules, that would create a competition between firms, forcing them to negociate (and forcing the workers to accept) more and more concession for competitivity reasons. As you pointed out, negociation within a society is important : it's the idea of contract between two parties. But, of course, contracts are only really possible between two equal parties, which is why most countries also have laws that regulate labor and that are considered superior to contracts. Putting contractual negociation above laws is a silly idea in regard to labor. It was not apparent from your initial post in which you complained about the way the French police handled the protests that you were referring to the law being a European recommendation, so no, it was far from obvious. You seem to ignore that competition works both ways - well-functioning unions ensure that companies also have to compete with each other on things such as work environment, CSR, and pay to attract workers. The current French labor rules seem to differ pretty greatly from other major players in EU (which isn't in itself a bad thing), but from what little (which is admittedly quite little which is why I wanted you to go into more detail (still do)) I have read on the topic it does seem like they are due for an overhaul. EDIT: I'm heading off to bed, but I'll try and get around to reading your response tomorrow. I hope you'll have a speedy recovery from the protest. I don't ignore it at all, I know full well the history of our unions, I'm actually part of the most ancient one ! Long story short it's complicated (could develop if you want). Funnily enough, in your definition of competition we need unions, while historical economy has seen union as one of the main reason for the crisis, most notably Pigou for the 1929 crisis, as they "drive wage up". Well functionning union only exist in well functionning countries, this is not the case for France (particular history, especially in regards to social conflict and union !), and our unions always had a troubled relationship with politics : they've not been simply defending labor issues in the last years, and lost themselves taking sides with certain politics (mostly the left, my union called us to vote for Hollande, this wreched idiot !). Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I'm still left wondering how this makes the law bad? Isn't this a case of bad unions or am I misunderstanding you? | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
June 15 2016 21:10 GMT
#9703
On June 16 2016 05:10 Ghostcom wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2016 13:59 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 09:57 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 09:34 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 08:17 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote: Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question: If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this. The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest? It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ? Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years. France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later. I'm not saying the saying is correct, I used it to showcase how generalizations are largely uninformed and that your statement "Democracy so good in Europe" was stupid since you could at best have said "Democracy so good in France" based on your "data". In fact you seem to repeatedly show a great deal of ignorance of Europe outside of France (no, the rest of Europe are not sheeple, get a grip) That the law was written by a non-French person is not in itself a detriment to it - at least showcase how it fails to serve the interest of the French. I'm asking with an open mind for you to explain what you find stupid about the law, if you are unable to do so, fine. I said "democracy so good in Europe" mainly because the law is a european recommandation, obviously. There are tons of things about the law : they partly removed what was problematic as the movement increased, but one key element stays - the article 2 of the law. It's a change in the hierarchy of norm, which means that, if the article is accepted, laws at the national level could be replaced by negociation directly at the firm level (which was already the case in specific situation, now it would be the case whatever the situation). This is virtually similar to a complete overhaul of our labor rules, that would create a competition between firms, forcing them to negociate (and forcing the workers to accept) more and more concession for competitivity reasons. As you pointed out, negociation within a society is important : it's the idea of contract between two parties. But, of course, contracts are only really possible between two equal parties, which is why most countries also have laws that regulate labor and that are considered superior to contracts. Putting contractual negociation above laws is a silly idea in regard to labor. It was not apparent from your initial post in which you complained about the way the French police handled the protests that you were referring to the law being a European recommendation, so no, it was far from obvious. You seem to ignore that competition works both ways - well-functioning unions ensure that companies also have to compete with each other on things such as work environment, CSR, and pay to attract workers. The current French labor rules seem to differ pretty greatly from other major players in EU (which isn't in itself a bad thing), but from what little (which is admittedly quite little which is why I wanted you to go into more detail (still do)) I have read on the topic it does seem like they are due for an overhaul. EDIT: I'm heading off to bed, but I'll try and get around to reading your response tomorrow. I hope you'll have a speedy recovery from the protest. I don't ignore it at all, I know full well the history of our unions, I'm actually part of the most ancient one ! Long story short it's complicated (could develop if you want). Funnily enough, in your definition of competition we need unions, while historical economy has seen union as one of the main reason for the crisis, most notably Pigou for the 1929 crisis, as they "drive wage up". Well functionning union only exist in well functionning countries, this is not the case for France (particular history, especially in regards to social conflict and union !), and our unions always had a troubled relationship with politics : they've not been simply defending labor issues in the last years, and lost themselves taking sides with certain politics (mostly the left, my union called us to vote for Hollande, this wreched idiot !). Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I'm still left wondering how this makes the law bad? Isn't this a case of bad unions or am I misunderstanding you? I think you're misunderstanding the role of union and negociation in labor overall. There are various level : at the national level, at the branch level, at the firm level. The national and the branch level are good because 1) there are unions, 2) what is being negociated is applied to all firms in the country or in the branch, permitting some kind of equal competition (regulation on labor is not a drag since it apply to everyone). The firm level is very different because many firm (more than 50 %) are too small to actually have any kind of union / representation for the workers. Not to mention that a firm can get a good advantage over another firm by pushing forward a contract that would, for exemple, lower the wage below minimum wage (I'm taking a very extreme exemple willingly). Due to this, giving priority to firm level above all kind of law / level is akin to creating some kind of overall context in which firms are forced to push their workers to accept more and more concession not in order to find a reasonnable situation/productivity/benefit/repartition of added value, but to simply gain an advantage over their competition. It's a really unhealthy situation, and it is not at all surprising that this comes from the EU because it is very similar to the functionning of the EU where some countries can gain advantage in terms of competitivity by protecting less their workers than other countries, paying them less, or simply using cheap workers from less developped countries (no offense to ex USSR countries but it's not untrue), effectively enforcing social dumping - the idea of "posted workers" is, for exemple, one of the medium through which the german pig industry gained a decisive advantage over the french industry and other european industries in the last ten years, by simply paying their workers a third of what a french worker cost, workers that more often than not comes from Poland or Romania and have polish or romanian contract. | ||
Ghostcom
Denmark4776 Posts
June 16 2016 01:16 GMT
#9704
On June 16 2016 06:10 WhiteDog wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2016 05:10 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 13:59 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 09:57 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 09:34 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 08:17 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote: On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote: On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote: Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question: If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this. The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest? It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ? Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years. France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later. I'm not saying the saying is correct, I used it to showcase how generalizations are largely uninformed and that your statement "Democracy so good in Europe" was stupid since you could at best have said "Democracy so good in France" based on your "data". In fact you seem to repeatedly show a great deal of ignorance of Europe outside of France (no, the rest of Europe are not sheeple, get a grip) That the law was written by a non-French person is not in itself a detriment to it - at least showcase how it fails to serve the interest of the French. I'm asking with an open mind for you to explain what you find stupid about the law, if you are unable to do so, fine. I said "democracy so good in Europe" mainly because the law is a european recommandation, obviously. There are tons of things about the law : they partly removed what was problematic as the movement increased, but one key element stays - the article 2 of the law. It's a change in the hierarchy of norm, which means that, if the article is accepted, laws at the national level could be replaced by negociation directly at the firm level (which was already the case in specific situation, now it would be the case whatever the situation). This is virtually similar to a complete overhaul of our labor rules, that would create a competition between firms, forcing them to negociate (and forcing the workers to accept) more and more concession for competitivity reasons. As you pointed out, negociation within a society is important : it's the idea of contract between two parties. But, of course, contracts are only really possible between two equal parties, which is why most countries also have laws that regulate labor and that are considered superior to contracts. Putting contractual negociation above laws is a silly idea in regard to labor. It was not apparent from your initial post in which you complained about the way the French police handled the protests that you were referring to the law being a European recommendation, so no, it was far from obvious. You seem to ignore that competition works both ways - well-functioning unions ensure that companies also have to compete with each other on things such as work environment, CSR, and pay to attract workers. The current French labor rules seem to differ pretty greatly from other major players in EU (which isn't in itself a bad thing), but from what little (which is admittedly quite little which is why I wanted you to go into more detail (still do)) I have read on the topic it does seem like they are due for an overhaul. EDIT: I'm heading off to bed, but I'll try and get around to reading your response tomorrow. I hope you'll have a speedy recovery from the protest. I don't ignore it at all, I know full well the history of our unions, I'm actually part of the most ancient one ! Long story short it's complicated (could develop if you want). Funnily enough, in your definition of competition we need unions, while historical economy has seen union as one of the main reason for the crisis, most notably Pigou for the 1929 crisis, as they "drive wage up". Well functionning union only exist in well functionning countries, this is not the case for France (particular history, especially in regards to social conflict and union !), and our unions always had a troubled relationship with politics : they've not been simply defending labor issues in the last years, and lost themselves taking sides with certain politics (mostly the left, my union called us to vote for Hollande, this wreched idiot !). Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I'm still left wondering how this makes the law bad? Isn't this a case of bad unions or am I misunderstanding you? I think you're misunderstanding the role of union and negociation in labor overall. There are various level : at the national level, at the branch level, at the firm level. The national and the branch level are good because 1) there are unions, 2) what is being negociated is applied to all firms in the country or in the branch, permitting some kind of equal competition (regulation on labor is not a drag since it apply to everyone). The firm level is very different because many firm (more than 50 %) are too small to actually have any kind of union / representation for the workers. Not to mention that a firm can get a good advantage over another firm by pushing forward a contract that would, for exemple, lower the wage below minimum wage (I'm taking a very extreme exemple willingly). Due to this, giving priority to firm level above all kind of law / level is akin to creating some kind of overall context in which firms are forced to push their workers to accept more and more concession not in order to find a reasonnable situation/productivity/benefit/repartition of added value, but to simply gain an advantage over their competition. It's a really unhealthy situation, and it is not at all surprising that this comes from the EU because it is very similar to the functionning of the EU where some countries can gain advantage in terms of competitivity by protecting less their workers than other countries, paying them less, or simply using cheap workers from less developped countries (no offense to ex USSR countries but it's not untrue), effectively enforcing social dumping - the idea of "posted workers" is, for exemple, one of the medium through which the german pig industry gained a decisive advantage over the french industry and other european industries in the last ten years, by simply paying their workers a third of what a french worker cost, workers that more often than not comes from Poland or Romania and have polish or romanian contract. Thanks for the clarification so far. I'm not sure I understand the bolded part - do you mean many firms are too small to have an on-site union-representative? Because that doesn't bar the workers from being members of a union and they should themselves be able to contact their union if an issue arises. | ||
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
June 16 2016 04:08 GMT
#9705
Pushing for unions at least shouldn't come at the expense of a progressive tax system and related things at the federal level. | ||
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
June 16 2016 06:10 GMT
#9706
A perfect example is this little story how now they want to regulate working from home - the employer will be required to ascertain and pay the costs for electricity and internet such incurred to the worker. I have absolutely no interest in having such compensation and the only thing it will do to me is to make me less able to work from home (which I do a lot, because what I do can mostly be done from anywhere). And there are tons of similar problems with the labor law. People who don't do jack shit are very difficult to fire, hiring someone to work for a short time requires pointless medical examinations (that are just a doctor signing a paper for money, with no medical activity at all) and so on ... essentially, the law exist so that the people can have the most job security for the least work and really hinders anyone who actually does something he cares about. And then they abuse their power, when people in jobs that are key to general convenience, such as public transport drivers, are on their side to do rallies and strikes to push their agenda. Yeah, really, fuck the unions. | ||
xM(Z
Romania5258 Posts
June 16 2016 08:24 GMT
#9707
- bureaucracy is everywhere and everyone complains about it; its not a union's creation(although unions help in adding more of it). - you have dysfunctional unions; checked. - you have no idea(or are full only of assumptions) about what would happen without those unions; checked. Trump probably likes you. you point the finger at a perceived problem and want to tear it and its mother down. | ||
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
June 16 2016 08:34 GMT
#9708
In my opinion, the whole concept of union is now outdated and almost every action of our unions reinforces this view. I am not denying their positive impact on the quality of life in Europe during the 20th century, but times change. I expect that the very same unions and people associated with them will be the biggest hurdle in the upcoming transition to a society where human work is in excess supply. | ||
Velr
Switzerland10424 Posts
June 16 2016 09:05 GMT
#9709
| ||
Godwrath
Spain10091 Posts
June 16 2016 09:10 GMT
#9710
| ||
zatic
Zurich15255 Posts
June 16 2016 09:23 GMT
#9711
| ||
xM(Z
Romania5258 Posts
June 16 2016 09:35 GMT
#9712
On June 16 2016 17:34 opisska wrote: How I my assumptions of what would happen without the unions less valid than yours? Can you point to a place where unions are not "dysfunctional"? In my opinion, the whole concept of union is now outdated and almost every action of our unions reinforces this view. I am not denying their positive impact on the quality of life in Europe during the 20th century, but times change. I expect that the very same unions and people associated with them will be the biggest hurdle in the upcoming transition to a society where human work is in excess supply. i made no assumptions and went with its definition + Show Spoiler + from wiki is an organization of workers who have come together to achieve common goals such as protecting the integrity of its trade, improving safety standards, achieving higher pay and benefits such as health care and retirement, increasing the number of employees an employer assigns to complete the work, and better working conditions. The trade union, through its leadership, bargains with the employer on behalf of union members (rank and file members) and negotiates labour contracts (collective bargaining) with employers. The most common purpose of these associations or unions is "maintaining or improving the conditions of their employment".[1] This may include the negotiation of wages, work rules, complaint procedures, rules governing hiring, firing and promotion of workers, benefits, workplace safety and policies. your anecdote was that you don't like your boss paying your internet and electric bills and that's fine and all; very first world country problem, but whatever. there could've been some invasion of privacy issues in enforcing that, but it's not like you'd go that far in trying to solve a problem ... the rest was just a rant of yours; it looked very Trump'ish to me. | ||
Sent.
Poland8973 Posts
June 16 2016 09:47 GMT
#9713
https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=UN_DEN Here it says that in 2013 66,8% of Danish workers were members of trade unions while in France it was only 7,7% (wtf?). I know there are many other factors involved, I just wanted to say we shouldn't judge unions in different countries by our standards. I think that unions from public sector are slightly too strong and unions from private sector are way too weak in my country but I'm not going to guess who is in the right in France. | ||
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
June 16 2016 10:20 GMT
#9714
On June 16 2016 18:10 Godwrath wrote: How many hours do you work a week opisska ? Essentially as many as I seem fit to do what I think should be accomplished. I have to however pretend that I work 8 hours a day with a given schedule, because of the labor laws. On June 16 2016 18:23 zatic wrote: Isn't the fundamental problem that unions are the lobby of the employed, and thus oppose policy that favors the unemployed over the employed. In a time where high unemployment is one of if not the most important issue that puts unions in the way of progress to address this issue. This is a very good point, but it's not only the biggest problem now, because unemployment is very low in Czech Republic, I am not sure if it isn't an all-time low right now. But they are also the lobby of "unhappy workers", of those who work from bell to bell in order to get money and buy beer in the evening. There is a growing body of people who do not subscribe to those values and for us, there is very hard to find any common ground with the unions. On June 16 2016 18:35 xM(Z wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2016 17:34 opisska wrote: How I my assumptions of what would happen without the unions less valid than yours? Can you point to a place where unions are not "dysfunctional"? In my opinion, the whole concept of union is now outdated and almost every action of our unions reinforces this view. I am not denying their positive impact on the quality of life in Europe during the 20th century, but times change. I expect that the very same unions and people associated with them will be the biggest hurdle in the upcoming transition to a society where human work is in excess supply. i made no assumptions and went with its definition + Show Spoiler + from wiki is an organization of workers who have come together to achieve common goals such as protecting the integrity of its trade, improving safety standards, achieving higher pay and benefits such as health care and retirement, increasing the number of employees an employer assigns to complete the work, and better working conditions. The trade union, through its leadership, bargains with the employer on behalf of union members (rank and file members) and negotiates labour contracts (collective bargaining) with employers. The most common purpose of these associations or unions is "maintaining or improving the conditions of their employment".[1] This may include the negotiation of wages, work rules, complaint procedures, rules governing hiring, firing and promotion of workers, benefits, workplace safety and policies. your anecdote was that you don't like your boss paying your internet and electric bills and that's fine and all; very first world country problem, but whatever. there could've been some invasion of privacy issues in enforcing that, but it's not like you'd go that far in trying to solve a problem ... the rest was just a rant of yours; it looked very Trump'ish to me. I don't know how you measure the Trumpishness of a statement and I don't care. It's essentialy an argument by Hitler what you are trying to do here (not everything said by a bad person is bad in principle). I live in first world, so I have first world problems, so what? My employer is willing to give me a lot of leeway in how I do things and that helps both them (in getting better results from me) and myself, because I enjoy it. Nobody is hurt in any way. However it's a public institution, so it has to follow the law to the letter, otherwise shitstorm ensues. The labor law is very restrictive in many aspects and causes issues, and a lot of those can be explicitly traced to motions by the unions. | ||
pmh
1344 Posts
June 16 2016 11:38 GMT
#9715
On June 16 2016 18:47 Sent. wrote: It's kind of obvious but I think it still needs to be said that French unions =/= Scandinavian unions =/= post communist unions. These unions operate in different cultures and legal systems and while it may look like the French are going on strike too often, it may be perfectly normal in French environment. People in Denmark don't have to protest as often because their unions have much stronger negotiation position. https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=UN_DEN Here it says that in 2013 66,8% of Danish workers were members of trade unions while in France it was only 7,7% (wtf?). I know there are many other factors involved, I just wanted to say we shouldn't judge unions in different countries by our standards. I think that unions from public sector are slightly too strong and unions from private sector are way too weak in my country but I'm not going to guess who is in the right in France. Only 7.7%? Really? Thought it would be like 50% or so. How can the unions in france have so much power when they only represent 7.7% of the workforce? The unions they negotiate the conditions for the workers,and now the French are against a new law that would make the contracts that unions negotiate non binding for the whole sector. With only 7.7% support to me it makes sence that they don't have the power to negotiate for all of the workers and get binding contracts for all of the workers. If it was like 50% then ya fine to make it binding for everyone. But with only 7.7% support? That's so undemocratic. Very odd that this can lead to so many protests. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
June 16 2016 13:12 GMT
#9716
On June 16 2016 20:38 pmh wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2016 18:47 Sent. wrote: It's kind of obvious but I think it still needs to be said that French unions =/= Scandinavian unions =/= post communist unions. These unions operate in different cultures and legal systems and while it may look like the French are going on strike too often, it may be perfectly normal in French environment. People in Denmark don't have to protest as often because their unions have much stronger negotiation position. https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=UN_DEN Here it says that in 2013 66,8% of Danish workers were members of trade unions while in France it was only 7,7% (wtf?). I know there are many other factors involved, I just wanted to say we shouldn't judge unions in different countries by our standards. I think that unions from public sector are slightly too strong and unions from private sector are way too weak in my country but I'm not going to guess who is in the right in France. Only 7.7%? Really? Thought it would be like 50% or so. How can the unions in france have so much power when they only represent 7.7% of the workforce? The unions they negotiate the conditions for the workers,and now the French are against a new law that would make the contracts that unions negotiate non binding for the whole sector. With only 7.7% support to me it makes sence that they don't have the power to negotiate for all of the workers and get binding contracts for all of the workers. If it was like 50% then ya fine to make it binding for everyone. But with only 7.7% support? That's so undemocratic. Very odd that this can lead to so many protests. Unions don't have much power, even in regards to the behavior of people who are in those unions. Unions are like familly trinkets that nobody wears, with a part of the familly that completly hate them and a part that respect them because their grandfather and grandmother use to wear it. Our unions were forbidden until very late in the XIXth century, and workers organized themselves around small mutualist system that used to gave services such as very small unemployment benefit through the cotisation of workers. They were then accepted and in a few years all gathered to create the CGT, the general confederation of workers early XXth century. Since then, the number of union increased a lot, except during the second world war where they all got back together to fight in the resistance against the nazi. Suffice to say those unions all had troubled ties with politics ; for exemple the CFDT, which is the only union for the law (to me they're treators, they accept everything) is a split from the CFTC, which was the catholic union created after the Pope's rerum novarrum. The CGT is the biggest anarchy of them all, as its full of everything and nothing. Historically it was for anarcho-syndicalism, against any alliance or allegeance to a political party, but it changed since 1905 and allied itself to the french communist party. All that leading to now, with most unions having dark history, especially the CGT with its relation to the communist party (that was at 30-35 % of voters in most elections, until french communism just disappeared due to all the bad things it has done, like supporting Stalin and the USSR). Another thing that explain the low number of partisan is the fact that what unions get in negociations is not restricted to union members, like in some other countries like the US, but applied to all workers. This create a situation of clandestine passenger, where it is better not to be in an union because you have all the benefit and none of the problems (you don't pay your cotisation, you don't have any problem with your hierarchy). Now the 7.7 % of the workforce is the number of people who are actually part of the union and pay their cotisation, more people actually vote for unions in the elections, but don't adhere to any union, especially in the private sector. The strength of french unions is that, even if they have a very small pool of people who accept to pay their cotisations and be part of the organization, they are, from time to time, followed by a big part of the population. For exemple, in most pools, 60 % of the french consider those movement against the law to be a good thing, and 75 % think it's a bad law, and the last mobilization had, according to unions, up to 1.3 millions people participating. | ||
Godwrath
Spain10091 Posts
June 16 2016 13:54 GMT
#9717
On June 16 2016 19:20 opisska wrote: Good for you, do you work more or less than 8 hours a day on average ?. Do you get paid by the hour ? Do you get paid enough to live by your own well ? I asked because i don't know how it is on the Czech republic. Do people the Czech republic have a salary to live on their own by themselves ? The average income seems very low to me, but obviously i don't know about the pricings and the cost of the living, so you might give me some insight into it ? How much does cost to rent an apartment, pay the bills and buy food ? Less than 700 euros ?Essentially as many as I seem fit to do what I think should be accomplished. I have to however pretend that I work 8 hours a day with a given schedule, because of the labor laws. PM me if you prefer. This is a very good point, but it's not only the biggest problem now, because unemployment is very low in Czech Republic, I am not sure if it isn't an all-time low right now. But they are also the lobby of "unhappy workers", of those who work from bell to bell in order to get money and buy beer in the evening. There is a growing body of people who do not subscribe to those values and for us, there is very hard to find any common ground with the unions. I would had thought that the one you would like (schedule/hours a week flexibility) go directly against the unemployed, because that artificial barrier forces them to hire more people or pay a plus for the extra hours. Except when those people actually want to circumvent it and be paid on black or whatever. But i guess you don't have a problem with unemployment there. Also, why do you refer to them with a "to buy beer" instead of just a "to pay the bills"? which is probably more common. | ||
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
June 16 2016 16:33 GMT
#9718
On June 16 2016 22:54 Godwrath wrote: Show nested quote + Good for you, do you work more or less than 8 hours a day on average ?. Do you get paid by the hour ? Do you get paid enough to live by your own well ? I asked because i don't know how it is on the Czech republic. Do people the Czech republic have a salary to live on their own by themselves ? The average income seems very low to me, but obviously i don't know about the pricings and the cost of the living, so you might give me some insight into it ? How much does cost to rent an apartment, pay the bills and buy food ? Less than 700 euros ?On June 16 2016 19:20 opisska wrote: On June 16 2016 18:10 Godwrath wrote: How many hours do you work a week opisska ? Essentially as many as I seem fit to do what I think should be accomplished. I have to however pretend that I work 8 hours a day with a given schedule, because of the labor laws. PM me if you prefer. I get paid a fixed monthly salary and even if I am theoretically required to work like 6.5 hours a day (I have a slightly reduced contract) I work generally for even less, but that's related to the specifics of my job in academia. Other people work more, mostly because they are more motivated, I still get away with it, because I get enough useful results. Also my wage is on the lower side even for the Czech Republic (on average about 600 euro, but gets significantly increased by travel reimbursements), so I am not in that much pressure, because it's not very easy to find people to work for that money. My salary is below the average in the country, my wife gets a little bit more, but still under average and doesn't get so much travel money, but being childless, we are essentially swimming in money related to our needs. Things are much cheaper here than in western Europe, in particular living - you can rent a good apartment in the capital city for 500 euro and a small one for less, and even much more cheaper is living in small cities. The answer to the question about "living on their own" really depends on who you ask. People here love to complain. Most of my friends are pretty content with how they live, but I know a lot of people who have more money than we have, but always complain about being poor. My view of this is that a large portion of people just can't handle money rationally and everyone I know who has money issues has them because they waste money on stupid things and that the more intelligent the people, the more content they are with their financial situation (even if it doesn't neccessarily mean that they have more money). Show nested quote + This is a very good point, but it's not only the biggest problem now, because unemployment is very low in Czech Republic, I am not sure if it isn't an all-time low right now. But they are also the lobby of "unhappy workers", of those who work from bell to bell in order to get money and buy beer in the evening. There is a growing body of people who do not subscribe to those values and for us, there is very hard to find any common ground with the unions. I would had thought that the one you would like (schedule/hours a week flexibility) go directly against the unemployed, because that artificial barrier forces them to hire more people or pay a plus for the extra hours. Except when those people actually want to circumvent it and be paid on black or whatever. But i guess you don't have a problem with unemployment there. Also, why do you refer to them with a "to buy beer" instead of just a "to pay the bills"? which is probably more common. There are many cases, when the employer doesn't have the extra money - such as a lot of state-funded places - and I can't really see how those restrictions help the unemployed. If anything, they make it worse by hindering the economy and by making employement a complicated burden. As for the last point, you need to understand how pervasive the beer culture is in Czech Republic and that a huge number of low-wage workers actually do head right for the pub after the clock finishes. That was really just a description of a social group of people. | ||
Godwrath
Spain10091 Posts
June 16 2016 18:50 GMT
#9719
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
June 16 2016 19:19 GMT
#9720
On June 17 2016 03:50 Godwrath wrote: Thx Opisska, just wanted to kinda get the context better. I think i understand where you are coming from better, about the unions i can't say i disagree there are things that could be improved, but i had found them extremely useful in cases where you have to litigate or go through mediation against the employer and you don't have the resources or knowledge to do so on your own, specially for the youth/poor. Hell yeah, that would be nice - and I hope that actually happens and such unions would be cool by me. I am only really fed up with unions as a nationwide political force (as they are in my country and apparently also in other countries). If they actually just helped people, how could I be against that | ||
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