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I am sorry if it was explained before somewhere but what are you talking about when you guys are talking about housing bubble? The increase of prizes of houses/apartments for sale or for rent? Or both?
EDIT:
On June 14 2016 05:33 opisska wrote:
[...]
housing prices corrected by inflation are declining in Europe for 9 years already, so do prices of rent. This does only show that housing gets cheaper relative to other goods and doesn't even take into account that the general buying strength is steadily increasing.
[...]
I was wondering if this is the case in Finland since i have felt like it is not. Regarding the rents:
![[image loading]](http://www.stat.fi/til/asvu/2016/01/asvu_2016_01_2016-05-06_tie_001_fi_001.gif)
The purple line is consumer price index and the green lines are the rent prize index for Helsinki area and the rest of Finland. So at least this doesn't hold water in Finland as i kinda assumed. 
Also the national authority for collecting and compiling statistics says that increase in salaries follow approximately the average consumer price index.
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On June 14 2016 23:30 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 20:22 RvB wrote:On June 14 2016 18:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I cannot agree with the blanket statement that house prices are declining in Europe.
England, Sweden, Denmark, Holland off the top of my head huge increases past 5 years.Switzerland maybe since they're on negative rates? Which raises the point, if things are so good in Europe why negative rates in Denmark,Sweden,Switz, even the ECB! Housing prices tanked massively in NL after the crisis. We had a huge bubble. Most of the recent increases is catch up growth. Inflation adjusted we're still below pre crisis peak. Ok thanks for the update.It seems the housing bubble has affected countries in the eurozone that still have their own currencies the most plus have high immigration.I know the housing bubble now in Sweden is especially bad, worse than Australia even.
With regards to Denmark the picture is also more nuanced. There are indeed indicators of a bubble when looking at the major cities (Copenhagen and Aarhus), but that has little to do with high immigration as Copenhagen takes in exactly 0 of the refugees. It is part of a country->city movement that predates the "refugee crisis", but it actually seems like it slowly reverses (at least if 1.st quarter of 2016 is going to be representative) as more and more are looking to the suburbs/towns outside of Copenhagen/Aarhus.
The movement has mixed causes - some larger generations attending university which happens to be located in the midst of the major cities combined with a higher median marrying/childbirthing age and an increased tendency to raise children in the larger cities. The last factor is the one that seems to have reversed. Whether or not the market is going to crash is still up in the air I think (personally I kinda hope for it as I'm looking to buy in about 3 years time  )
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On June 14 2016 23:30 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 20:22 RvB wrote:On June 14 2016 18:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I cannot agree with the blanket statement that house prices are declining in Europe.
England, Sweden, Denmark, Holland off the top of my head huge increases past 5 years.Switzerland maybe since they're on negative rates? Which raises the point, if things are so good in Europe why negative rates in Denmark,Sweden,Switz, even the ECB! Housing prices tanked massively in NL after the crisis. We had a huge bubble. Most of the recent increases is catch up growth. Inflation adjusted we're still below pre crisis peak. Ok thanks for the update.It seems the housing bubble has affected countries in the eurozone that still have their own currencies the most plus have high immigration.I know the housing bubble now in Sweden is especially bad, worse than Australia even.
I don't know about other countries but that's not true for the Netherlands. We're in the eurozone and the bubble was caused by mortgage interest rate reduction (which increased housing prices) and not building enough housing due to building constraints and our insane rental market.
I am sorry if it was explained before somewhere but what are you talking about when you guys are talking about housing bubble? The increase of prizes of houses/apartments for sale or for rent? Or both?
We had a 2 decade long appreciation of housing prices followed by a 20% nominal depreciation after the financial crisis. Rising housing prices don't always mean a bubble but in this case history showed it was.
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In case the UK actually leaves the EU, would this result in a new Scottish referendum or is that off the table in the near future?
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On June 14 2016 19:59 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 19:31 WhiteDog wrote:On June 14 2016 16:26 Velr wrote:
I hope you mean social deomcracy or social capitalism.
Because true socialism so far has only shown us that it, sooner or later, will be exploited by the "ruling class" and you end up with despotism. Yeah mixed economy with some part of production (the most important) socialized (banking, energy production ...) ; which was actually the case in a big part of europe during the thirty glorious. We also need to let go of productivism. On June 14 2016 18:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I cannot agree with the blanket statement that house prices are declining in Europe.
England, Sweden, Denmark, Holland off the top of my head huge increases past 5 years.Switzerland maybe since they're on negative rates? Which raises the point, if things are so good in Europe why negative rates in Denmark,Sweden,Switz, even the ECB! He did not exactly argue that they were declining, he argued that they were, on average, everywhere in europe, growing less than inflation in the last few years. It's somewhat true that they kinda crumbled in the years after the crisis, due to a lack of demand, like all prices, and since there was some kind of buble, the downfall of housing prices was bigger. But overall, as showed with my curve, rent increased way more than inflation in the last 15 years; and there are huge differences between urban area, not urban, etc. His comment has no value for the bottom 10 %, as I showed above : he is implying that inflation is not a problem for purchasing power, which is only true if you think the society is entirely made of average income people. It's not, inflation is not homogeneous, and the lowflation we've had for the last 10 years is a masked inequality. Actually, I can agree with you on that. But your statement, that I was responding to, was blanket. The real problem really might be the inequality and when talking about the 10%, I can see how you have a point. But the bottom 10% is just ... a tenth of the population, while a large amount of people is getting better and better off, yet the amount of complainers seems to be disproportionally large. So while the poorest citizens may face real problems with housing and establishing families, is it really a society-wide issue? Is it even a problem when not everyone can afford to have children? I understand what inequality means and that is has been widely proven to be detrimental to almost any society, but the data you shown should really be seen as that - a pointer about issues of inequality, than to show decline in living standards of all people. Also, as I side remark, I would like to mention, that you have yourself pointed out, that for example when it comes to homelessness, immigrants are a risk group, which however means that the homelessness values can't be taken at face value when it comes to the locals' situation, right? In general, any index that gets brought down by immigrants is not a very good argument for how the locals suffer from immigration ...
Seems like you're asking "is it a societal issue that the poor are poorer year after year since 10 to 15 years ?"... The reasonning I gave on the bottom 10 % might be true up to 30 % of the population by the way and - ho miracle - that part of the population is younger, less educated, rarely live in the center of urban area.
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Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
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On June 15 2016 03:20 Nyxisto wrote:
In case the UK actually leaves the EU, would this result in a new Scottish referendum or is that off the table in the near future?
It is possible yes and since Scotland is pretty pro Eu I'd call it likely.
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Doe this mean that, if the UK remains in the EU, it is because scotland voted to stay in the UK?
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On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe.
By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe.
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On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe.
There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues...
Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations?
EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest?
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On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest?
It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ?
Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years.
France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later.
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On June 15 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest? It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ? Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years. France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later.
I'm not saying the saying is correct, I used it to showcase how generalizations are largely uninformed and that your statement "Democracy so good in Europe" was stupid since you could at best have said "Democracy so good in France" based on your "data". In fact you seem to repeatedly show a great deal of ignorance of Europe outside of France (no, the rest of Europe are not sheeple, get a grip)
That the law was written by a non-French person is not in itself a detriment to it - at least showcase how it fails to serve the interest of the French. I'm asking with an open mind for you to explain what you find stupid about the law, if you are unable to do so, fine.
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While violence and intimidation against protesters is obviously bad the European idea of democracy is still that it's supposed to take place in a parliament, not on the street. It's a big problem of the youth in Europe. Either they do nothing or they protest, but they're notoriously bad at organizing political structures that get them constructive progress. Party membership for students and young adults has been going down rapidly over the decades, but it's simply the most effective form to get what you want.
The occupy movement showed pretty strongly what's wrong with this. Not only did it achieve absolutely nothing, most people there didn't actually seem to have any genuine ideological convictions and just hang around because it seemed to be the most interesting thing to do at the time.
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On June 15 2016 08:17 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest? It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ? Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years. France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later. I'm not saying the saying is correct, I used it to showcase how generalizations are largely uninformed and that your statement "Democracy so good in Europe" was stupid since you could at best have said "Democracy so good in France" based on your "data". In fact you seem to repeatedly show a great deal of ignorance of Europe outside of France (no, the rest of Europe are not sheeple, get a grip) That the law was written by a non-French person is not in itself a detriment to it - at least showcase how it fails to serve the interest of the French. I'm asking with an open mind for you to explain what you find stupid about the law, if you are unable to do so, fine.
I said "democracy so good in Europe" mainly because the law is a european recommandation, obviously.
There are tons of things about the law : they partly removed what was problematic as the movement increased, but one key element stays - the article 2 of the law. It's a change in the hierarchy of norm, which means that, if the article is accepted, laws at the national level could be replaced by negociation directly at the firm level (which was already the case in specific situation, now it would be the case whatever the situation).
This is virtually similar to a complete overhaul of our labor rules, that would create a competition between firms, forcing them to negociate (and forcing the workers to accept) more and more concession for competitivity reasons.
As you pointed out, negociation within a society is important : it's the idea of contract between two parties. But, of course, contracts are only really possible between two equal parties, which is why most countries also have laws that regulate labor and that are considered superior to contracts. Putting contractual negociation above laws is a silly idea in regard to labor.
The occupy movement showed pretty strongly what's wrong with this. Not only did it achieve absolutely nothing, most people there didn't actually seem to have any genuine ideological convictions and just hang around because it seemed to be the most interesting thing to do at the time.
It's been a long time since we agreed on anything, but you're entirely right : the extreme left, liberal and individualist, is ruining everything.
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On June 15 2016 09:34 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 08:17 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest? It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ? Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years. France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later. I'm not saying the saying is correct, I used it to showcase how generalizations are largely uninformed and that your statement "Democracy so good in Europe" was stupid since you could at best have said "Democracy so good in France" based on your "data". In fact you seem to repeatedly show a great deal of ignorance of Europe outside of France (no, the rest of Europe are not sheeple, get a grip) That the law was written by a non-French person is not in itself a detriment to it - at least showcase how it fails to serve the interest of the French. I'm asking with an open mind for you to explain what you find stupid about the law, if you are unable to do so, fine. I said "democracy so good in Europe" mainly because the law is a european recommandation, obviously. There are tons of things about the law : they partly removed what was problematic as the movement increased, but one key element stays - the article 2 of the law. It's a change in the hierarchy of norm, which means that, if the article is accepted, laws at the national level could be replaced by negociation directly at the firm level (which was already the case in specific situation, now it would be the case whatever the situation). This is virtually similar to a complete overhaul of our labor rules, that would create a competition between firms, forcing them to negociate (and forcing the workers to accept) more and more concession for competitivity reasons. As you pointed out, negociation within a society is important : it's the idea of contract between two parties. But, of course, contracts are only really possible between two equal parties, which is why most countries also have laws that regulate labor and that are considered superior to contracts. Putting contractual negociation above laws is a silly idea in regard to labor.
It was not apparent from your initial post in which you complained about the way the French police handled the protests that you were referring to the law being a European recommendation, so no, it was far from obvious.
You seem to ignore that competition works both ways - well-functioning unions ensure that companies also have to compete with each other on things such as work environment, CSR, and pay to attract workers. The current French labor rules seem to differ pretty greatly from other major players in EU (which isn't in itself a bad thing), but from what little (which is admittedly quite little which is why I wanted you to go into more detail (still do)) I have read on the topic it does seem like they are due for an overhaul.
EDIT: I'm heading off to bed, but I'll try and get around to reading your response tomorrow. I hope you'll have a speedy recovery from the protest.
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On June 15 2016 09:57 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 09:34 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 08:17 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest? It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ? Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years. France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later. I'm not saying the saying is correct, I used it to showcase how generalizations are largely uninformed and that your statement "Democracy so good in Europe" was stupid since you could at best have said "Democracy so good in France" based on your "data". In fact you seem to repeatedly show a great deal of ignorance of Europe outside of France (no, the rest of Europe are not sheeple, get a grip) That the law was written by a non-French person is not in itself a detriment to it - at least showcase how it fails to serve the interest of the French. I'm asking with an open mind for you to explain what you find stupid about the law, if you are unable to do so, fine. I said "democracy so good in Europe" mainly because the law is a european recommandation, obviously. There are tons of things about the law : they partly removed what was problematic as the movement increased, but one key element stays - the article 2 of the law. It's a change in the hierarchy of norm, which means that, if the article is accepted, laws at the national level could be replaced by negociation directly at the firm level (which was already the case in specific situation, now it would be the case whatever the situation). This is virtually similar to a complete overhaul of our labor rules, that would create a competition between firms, forcing them to negociate (and forcing the workers to accept) more and more concession for competitivity reasons. As you pointed out, negociation within a society is important : it's the idea of contract between two parties. But, of course, contracts are only really possible between two equal parties, which is why most countries also have laws that regulate labor and that are considered superior to contracts. Putting contractual negociation above laws is a silly idea in regard to labor. It was not apparent from your initial post in which you complained about the way the French police handled the protests that you were referring to the law being a European recommendation, so no, it was far from obvious. You seem to ignore that competition works both ways - well-functioning unions ensure that companies also have to compete with each other on things such as work environment, CSR, and pay to attract workers. The current French labor rules seem to differ pretty greatly from other major players in EU (which isn't in itself a bad thing), but from what little (which is admittedly quite little which is why I wanted you to go into more detail (still do)) I have read on the topic it does seem like they are due for an overhaul. EDIT: I'm heading off to bed, but I'll try and get around to reading your response tomorrow. I hope you'll have a speedy recovery from the protest.
I don't ignore it at all, I know full well the history of our unions, I'm actually part of the most ancient one ! Long story short it's complicated (could develop if you want).
Funnily enough, in your definition of competition we need unions, while historical economy has seen union as one of the main reason for the crisis, most notably Pigou for the 1929 crisis, as they "drive wage up". Well functionning union only exist in well functionning countries, this is not the case for France (particular history, especially in regards to social conflict and union !), and our unions always had a troubled relationship with politics : they've not been simply defending labor issues in the last years, and lost themselves taking sides with certain politics (mostly the left, my union called us to vote for Hollande, this wreched idiot !).
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On June 15 2016 09:34 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 08:17 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest? It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ? Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years. France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later. I'm not saying the saying is correct, I used it to showcase how generalizations are largely uninformed and that your statement "Democracy so good in Europe" was stupid since you could at best have said "Democracy so good in France" based on your "data". In fact you seem to repeatedly show a great deal of ignorance of Europe outside of France (no, the rest of Europe are not sheeple, get a grip) That the law was written by a non-French person is not in itself a detriment to it - at least showcase how it fails to serve the interest of the French. I'm asking with an open mind for you to explain what you find stupid about the law, if you are unable to do so, fine. I said "democracy so good in Europe" mainly because the law is a european recommandation, obviously. There are tons of things about the law : they partly removed what was problematic as the movement increased, but one key element stays - the article 2 of the law. It's a change in the hierarchy of norm, which means that, if the article is accepted, laws at the national level could be replaced by negociation directly at the firm level (which was already the case in specific situation, now it would be the case whatever the situation). This is virtually similar to a complete overhaul of our labor rules, that would create a competition between firms, forcing them to negociate (and forcing the workers to accept) more and more concession for competitivity reasons. As you pointed out, negociation within a society is important : it's the idea of contract between two parties. But, of course, contracts are only really possible between two equal parties, which is why most countries also have laws that regulate labor and that are considered superior to contracts. Putting contractual negociation above laws is a silly idea in regard to labor. Show nested quote +The occupy movement showed pretty strongly what's wrong with this. Not only did it achieve absolutely nothing, most people there didn't actually seem to have any genuine ideological convictions and just hang around because it seemed to be the most interesting thing to do at the time. It's been a long time since we agreed on anything, but you're entirely right : the extreme left, liberal and individualist, is ruining everything.
Where on the political spectrum would you place yourself? You seem pretty extreme left to me.
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On June 15 2016 14:22 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 09:34 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 08:17 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 07:33 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 07:20 Ghostcom wrote:On June 15 2016 06:21 WhiteDog wrote:On June 15 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Inflation is still a problem for Spanish households. I am sure we are at the bottom of this, so nothing surprising but what Opisska is saying seems like is wrong here if i am not mistaken. Prices had raised like a 15% since 2008 to 2013, and wages were down around a 7.5% on 2013 with the trend to be continued. I think the wages had finally started to rise, but they are still quite lower than pre crisis (around -9%), and that's before inflation kicks in. Surely my interpretation is shortsighted so... dumb question:
If inequality is rising, income is lower, prices are higher, who is actually doing better ? a 35% of spanish population has salaries below 700€ right now, while the average is 1,700, so the up to a 30% doing worse than before doesn't sound unlikely, but i don't know crap about this.
The rich are doing better, and the margin of your firms. Exports have been rising steadily in Spain I believe. By the way I was in the manifestation against the El-Khomry law, with something like 1.3 million people according to our syndicate. Was breathing gaz for hours, might even piss some at this point, and saw a poor Swiss guy drop down into coma after receiving some kind of projectile shot by the police. Democracy so good in Europe. There is a saying that in Scandinavia we (i.e. our politicians, unions, the industry) try to solve the issues facing society together by talking first and only when all other ways have been exhausted do we protest. In France you protest first, and only when all other options have been exhausted do you actually try and solve the issues... Perhaps we should all refrain from stupid extrapolations and generalizations? EDIT: Perhaps you could try and explain what it is you find so terrible with the El Khomri law? I mean it seems largely to reflect the labor laws in other (Germany) countries? I agree the working hours seem excessive, but the rest? It's a direct retranscription of european recommandations and you're saying it's french that protest first and talk after lol... Funny. What is there to discuss if the law has been written a year before outside of France ? Even the behavior of our police is more european than french : they "nasse" (circle) the manifestation, and cut the manifestation in half to isolate the few nervous manifestants ; it's a german and an english way of dealing with protest that just came since a few years. France difference with most Europe is we don't accept it like sheep when our politicians try to fuck us that's the thing ... The law is just stupid, I'll maybe argue later. I'm not saying the saying is correct, I used it to showcase how generalizations are largely uninformed and that your statement "Democracy so good in Europe" was stupid since you could at best have said "Democracy so good in France" based on your "data". In fact you seem to repeatedly show a great deal of ignorance of Europe outside of France (no, the rest of Europe are not sheeple, get a grip) That the law was written by a non-French person is not in itself a detriment to it - at least showcase how it fails to serve the interest of the French. I'm asking with an open mind for you to explain what you find stupid about the law, if you are unable to do so, fine. I said "democracy so good in Europe" mainly because the law is a european recommandation, obviously. There are tons of things about the law : they partly removed what was problematic as the movement increased, but one key element stays - the article 2 of the law. It's a change in the hierarchy of norm, which means that, if the article is accepted, laws at the national level could be replaced by negociation directly at the firm level (which was already the case in specific situation, now it would be the case whatever the situation). This is virtually similar to a complete overhaul of our labor rules, that would create a competition between firms, forcing them to negociate (and forcing the workers to accept) more and more concession for competitivity reasons. As you pointed out, negociation within a society is important : it's the idea of contract between two parties. But, of course, contracts are only really possible between two equal parties, which is why most countries also have laws that regulate labor and that are considered superior to contracts. Putting contractual negociation above laws is a silly idea in regard to labor. The occupy movement showed pretty strongly what's wrong with this. Not only did it achieve absolutely nothing, most people there didn't actually seem to have any genuine ideological convictions and just hang around because it seemed to be the most interesting thing to do at the time. It's been a long time since we agreed on anything, but you're entirely right : the extreme left, liberal and individualist, is ruining everything. Where on the political spectrum would you place yourself? You seem pretty extreme left to me.
"The communist are not on the left... they're from the east"... lol. The idea that socialists and communists are part of "the left" is the result of the historical disappearance of socialism. What most people call the extreme left today is more often than not full of libertarian, individualists and people full of self righteous ideas coming from the bourgeoisie, that sometime flirt with thought terror. I also don't share the grandiose idea of progress, social or economical - I'm not what you'd call a "progressive".
I'm a socialist in the historical sense : not a republican, nor a conservative, altho I can lean on both on occasion, depending on the subject.
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he's a functional socialist; only functioning 4-5 hours a day.
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On June 15 2016 03:20 Nyxisto wrote:
In case the UK actually leaves the EU, would this result in a new Scottish referendum or is that off the table in the near future?
They polled the Scottish people on this, in the event of Brexit would you want another independence referendum and they said No, 56% no to 44% yes. Obviously that is only a Poll but the SNP are also getting less popular as well, the conservatives removed their majority in the recent Scottish elections and so now the SNP have to govern with the greens instead of on their own.
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EPT
