EPTunfortunately you cant lock up everyone who doesnt get asylum until he leaves the country, would be the best way to deal with it.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 407
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
|
hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
unfortunately you cant lock up everyone who doesnt get asylum until he leaves the country, would be the best way to deal with it. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On January 28 2016 21:24 nitram wrote: If they get caught with a passport of a country at peace, they just throw the passport away and claim another identity. This is also happening in Germany, is it not? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm asking. If that's what's happening and they're claiming to be from Syria they're not going to be expelled because we don't expel to Syria. Correct? So the 60-80k that arrived in 2015 that got rejected are all people that DIDN'T do that because otherwise they couldn't be expelled? I'm just trying to put the linked article into context and trying to figure out what kind of people they're talking about. | ||
|
Banaora
Germany234 Posts
On January 28 2016 20:22 Gorsameth wrote: And what about the other 40%? I'm all for sending any economic migrants back as soon as we can but that doesn't mean we should stop taking care of those who actually need it. Providing ofcourse they respect our laws and values ect. Once they are in the country it's really hard to send them back. One problem in Germany is that our border is not patrolled thoroughly and people who are refused entry just try again a few hours later. If you are a real refugee you should receive help, but you should not be allowed to choose where you get this help from. I personally would expect that neighbouring countries help before countries further away. It is easier for people then to return to their own country after the war. So far I like the solution proposed by the Dutch: Send everybody who arrives in Greece back to Turkey and in exchange take a certain number of refugees from Turkey. If I remember correctly 200k-300k / year. | ||
Gorsameth
Netherlands22104 Posts
On January 28 2016 21:47 Banaora wrote: Once they are in the country it's really hard to send them back. One problem in Germany is that our border is not patrolled thoroughly and people who are refused entry just try again a few hours later. If you are a real refugee you should receive help, but you should not be allowed to choose where you get this help from. I personally would expect that neighbouring countries help before countries further away. It is easier for people then to return to their own country after the war. So far I like the solution proposed by the Dutch: Send everybody who arrives in Greece back to Turkey and in exchange take a certain number of refugees from Turkey. If I remember correctly 200k-300k / year. But that would require the EU to work together and as we have seen they are utterly incapable of doing that. Keep the refugees at the outer EU border and work together to create refugee camps for them, when they get cleared as actual war refugees you distribute them across the union for more permanent care (because the war is not ending any time soon) and keep the economic refugee's from even getting in. No need to expel people then either because they are already outside. But this seems to be utterly beyond the ability of the EU to agree to or organize. Makes you wonder why we have the Union if it cant solve actual problems. | ||
|
Banaora
Germany234 Posts
Gee everything is smarter than what we have now... And our government knew well in advance what was coming. German Intelligence in Turkey was well active, even Turkey complained about it. It's the reason I want Merkel gone. How can you even think that you can act solo and expect everybody to follow you? This still makes me angry. | ||
|
dismiss
United Kingdom3341 Posts
Welp, the police in one big German city admitted that they haven't investigated refugees for crimes such as theft and B&E for some months now. Violating basic constitutional law seems like a good way to deal with this situation.  | ||
|
Banaora
Germany234 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Section 258 Assistance in avoiding prosecution or punishment (1) Whosoever intentionally or knowingly obstructs in whole or in part the punishment of another in accordance with the criminal law because of an unlawful act or his being subjected to a measure (section 11(1) No 8) shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine. (2) Whosoever intentionally or knowingly obstructs in whole or in part the enforcement of a sentence or measure imposed on another shall incur the same penalty. (3) The penalty must not be more severe than that for the act. (4) The attempt shall be punishable. (5) Whosoever by the offence simultaneously intends to avoid, in whole or in part, his own punishment or being subjected to a measure or that a sentence or measure imposed on him be enforced shall not be liable under this provision. (6) Whosoever commits the offence for the benefit of a relative shall be exempt from liability. Section 258a Assistance given in official capacity (1) If the offender under section 258(1) is a public official involved in the criminal proceedings or the proceedings for measure (section 11(1) No 8), or in cases under section 258(2) is a public official involved in the enforcement of the sentence or measure the penalty shall be imprisonment from six months to five years, in less serious cases imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine. (2) The attempt shall be punishable. (3) Section 258(3) and (6) shall not apply. Another aspect of these things is that you can throw criminal statistics into the waste bin. | ||
|
CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2715 Posts
Send everyone you want to send home there. Give them an offer. You can pay for their travels home or they can stay where they are. They will have plenty to do chopping wood for the winter. As the people (rapidly) leave just keep filling it up. Actually 5000 would probably be enough. Make sure it has great internet and phone service. Then startmaking people an even better deal, move out from Sweden on your own and we not only pay for your travels we give you 3000 €. But if you sneak back prepare to spend your winter in eternal darkness freezing your balls of. | ||
|
Sent.
Poland9280 Posts
| ||
|
CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2715 Posts
On January 29 2016 02:51 Sent. wrote: That's so soviet, comrade Yes? That was the inspirational part. The difference is that instead of sending political dissidents to Siberia to die you are giving people who are committing a crime (it's illegal to stay if your asylum request is denied) a clear and easy choice. Most countries intern people are who are there illegally. It's just about location. And they would be able to leave all expenses paid the moment they wanted to which is also a slight difference. You can't say it wouldn't be effective. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
| ||
|
dismiss
United Kingdom3341 Posts
On January 29 2016 03:13 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Yes? That was the inspirational part. The difference is that instead of sending political dissidents to Siberia to die you are giving people who are committing a crime (it's illegal to stay if your asylum request is denied) a clear and easy choice. Most countries intern people are who are there illegally. It's just about location. And they would be able to leave all expenses paid the moment they wanted to which is also a slight difference. You can't say it wouldn't be effective. To be honest, the worst thing that can happen to us if we as a civilisation lose our values. Your idea is awfully violating all the humanistic ideas European morality is based on. However, sending people back to their country of origin regardless of the circumstances there seems like a much easier to swallow solution. | ||
|
RvB
Netherlands6266 Posts
THE HAGUE Jan 28 (Reuters) - Senior Dutch government officials are discussing a plan to ferry refugees arriving in Greece back to Turkey to stem the flow of migrants seeking refuge in Europe, Labour Party leader Diederik Samsom said on Thursday. Samsom said in an interview with the daily Volkskrant that European countries would have to agree in exchange to take several hundred thousand refugees each year out nearly 2 million currently in Turkey. He also told Reuters that the plan was close to becoming government policy and that the Netherlands, which currently holds the European Union's rotating presidency, would seek to push for Europe-wide agreement on the proposal. While Samsom has no formal government job as leader of the junior of the two Dutch coalition parties, he said he had discussed the proposal with Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and with Sigmar Gabriel, the German Social Democrat vice-chancellor. The stream of migrants fleeing war and persecution in the Middle East and North Africa has placed the European Union under strain and fueled right-wing nationalist rhetoric throughout the continent. Samsom said improving conditions for Syrian refugees in Turkey meant it could soon be regarded as a safe country to which asylum-seekers could be returned. Rutte said at the launch of the Dutch presidency that the stream of refugees arriving in Europe would have to come down within six to eight weeks. "Every night now people drown because they get into a dinghy with too many people in rough weather and people drown - 24 last night, 26 the night before," Samsom said. His plan would stop the flow by making the journey pointless and giving several hundred thousand refugees a year a legal route out of Turkey into the EU, he said. "You cannot convince Turkey to readmit these people if you don't relieve their refugee burden," he said. He said the West European countries most affected would have to agree individually to take refugees if no overarching EU agreement could be reached. "The countries most affected - Austria, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands - might take the lead in making this happen," he said. "We saw that the Europe-wide relocation scheme got nowhere if obstructed by the Czechs, Poland, Romania." A Dutch government spokesman said: "The Netherlands is working hard to reach a common solution. Therefore the influx must be stemmed and resettlement within Europe must improve." af.reuters.com A source on the Dutch idea to send refugees back to Turkey and then take a couple 100k's back in from there. I bolded something I thought important. This will mean that not the whole of the EU has to agree while still being a potential solution for the countries most affected. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands22104 Posts
On January 29 2016 03:20 RvB wrote: af.reuters.com A source on the Dutch idea to send refugees back to Turkey and then take a couple 100k's back in from there. I bolded something I thought important. This will mean that not the whole of the EU has to agree while still being a potential solution for the countries most affected. And those we take from Turkey, are they already screened to be actual refugees? Or are we going to play roulette that we don't get a truckload of people who we then all send back again because their economic immigrants? And I'm not so sure Turkey will accept that they get saddled with all the work without serious financial and material support to help cope. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 29 2016 03:24 Gorsameth wrote: And those we take from Turkey, are they already screened to be actual refugees? Or are we going to play roulette that we don't get a truckload of people who we then all send back again because their economic immigrants? And I'm not so sure Turkey will accept that they get saddled with all the work without serious financial and material support to help cope. If Turkey would agree, the should just set up a massive screening process in Turkey for the refugees and handle it from there. But of course the countries that the refugees were assigned to would also have to agree to the process. | ||
|
CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2715 Posts
On January 29 2016 03:20 dismiss wrote: To be honest, the worst thing that can happen to us if we as a civilisation lose our values. Your idea is awfully violating all the humanistic ideas European morality is based on. However, sending people back to their country of origin regardless of the circumstances there seems like a much easier to swallow solution.Now your just being ignorant. 1) Has Australia lost their values? They are putting asylum seekers in camps in other countries. This is no worse. 2) Asylum request denied means that their circumstances were considered and rejected. This means that it's not "regardless of the circumstances". It means it's a safe place. People who are refuges for real and are fleeing actual war or persecution obviously get to stay (until the war is over and they get the chance to either go home or get sent to "the wall"). If they haven't integrated of course then they can stay. I don't know if you realize it but you are arguing for completely free migration. If people can just show up and say "hey I'm a refuge" even if they are from a safe country then why even have asylum rules. If your denied you have to go home. It's like that everywhere in the world. Then you have people who won't accept that. Who work their hardest to obstruct what could be an otherwise easy process. I fail to see how interning them is "corrupting European moral values" when there is tons of countries doing it. They won't starve or freeze to death and they would get basic health care. The only thing would be that the location would be way easier to mange and it would utterly suck. Like tens of thousands of Swedish (or Norwegian or Finish) young males have done in the past these guys would wish they weren't in a camp at the polar circle. The difference is of course that one group can get cash and leave whenever they want and the conscripts of the past would get thrown in jail if they left. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
| ||
|
CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2715 Posts
On January 29 2016 03:53 Plansix wrote: The classic internet argument of “You misstated what I said, now let me heap an argument upon you that you never made so I can argue against it. Check mate.” Classic. ? I wasn't even responding to you, there wasn't anything in your snarky comment to respond to. | ||
|
dismiss
United Kingdom3341 Posts
| ||
|
LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On January 29 2016 03:13 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: instead of sending political dissidents to Siberia to die People were sent to Siberia so they would GTFO from the center of politics in Moscow/Leningrad without having to kill them. Other than that, it isn't exactly a bad idea. There could be worse ways of dealing with potentially malicious migrants without sending them to what could be their death if they have nowhere to go. | ||
| ||
