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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On January 29 2016 04:02 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 03:13 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
instead of sending political dissidents to Siberia to die People were sent to Siberia so they would GTFO from the center of politics in Moscow/Leningrad without having to kill them. Other than that, it isn't exactly a bad idea. There could be worse ways of dealing with potentially malicious migrants without sending them to what could be their death if they have nowhere to go.
Well when they sent most of them to Siberia it was a one way ticket because they didn't expect them to get back. Just because your not intending to actively kill someone doesn't mean your not sending them there to die.
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On January 29 2016 03:20 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +THE HAGUE Jan 28 (Reuters) - Senior Dutch government officials are discussing a plan to ferry refugees arriving in Greece back to Turkey to stem the flow of migrants seeking refuge in Europe, Labour Party leader Diederik Samsom said on Thursday.
Samsom said in an interview with the daily Volkskrant that European countries would have to agree in exchange to take several hundred thousand refugees each year out nearly 2 million currently in Turkey.
He also told Reuters that the plan was close to becoming government policy and that the Netherlands, which currently holds the European Union's rotating presidency, would seek to push for Europe-wide agreement on the proposal.
While Samsom has no formal government job as leader of the junior of the two Dutch coalition parties, he said he had discussed the proposal with Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and with Sigmar Gabriel, the German Social Democrat vice-chancellor.
The stream of migrants fleeing war and persecution in the Middle East and North Africa has placed the European Union under strain and fueled right-wing nationalist rhetoric throughout the continent.
Samsom said improving conditions for Syrian refugees in Turkey meant it could soon be regarded as a safe country to which asylum-seekers could be returned.
Rutte said at the launch of the Dutch presidency that the stream of refugees arriving in Europe would have to come down within six to eight weeks.
"Every night now people drown because they get into a dinghy with too many people in rough weather and people drown - 24 last night, 26 the night before," Samsom said.
His plan would stop the flow by making the journey pointless and giving several hundred thousand refugees a year a legal route out of Turkey into the EU, he said.
"You cannot convince Turkey to readmit these people if you don't relieve their refugee burden," he said.
He said the West European countries most affected would have to agree individually to take refugees if no overarching EU agreement could be reached.
"The countries most affected - Austria, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands - might take the lead in making this happen," he said. "We saw that the Europe-wide relocation scheme got nowhere if obstructed by the Czechs, Poland, Romania."
A Dutch government spokesman said: "The Netherlands is working hard to reach a common solution. Therefore the influx must be stemmed and resettlement within Europe must improve." af.reuters.comA source on the Dutch idea to send refugees back to Turkey and then take a couple 100k's back in from there. I bolded something I thought important. This will mean that not the whole of the EU has to agree while still being a potential solution for the countries most affected.
It looks like they want to do exactly what those crazy right-wing nationalists demanded some time ago.
- Moving refugees and migrants back to Turkey.
- Regarding Turkey as a safe country
- Giving Turkey some real support
- Taking people from refugee camps outside of EU after a proper checkup.
- Making illegal entrances pointless just like Australia does.
- Pushing for Europe-wide agreement instead of that chaotic mess we had so far.
I bet some right-wingers will be like "haha! I told you guys" if this goes through
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On January 29 2016 04:00 dismiss wrote:
No, I just said that a camp out in the middle of nowhere is inhumane to the point where it seriously infringes on Western values. Given the current situation simply sending them back doesn't in my opinion.
i dont know, camps where you put people you dont like were pretty normal in the last 100 years and while they didnt happen in europe in the last 50 years, europe also never faced a situation where this action would even be remotely useful.
in my opinion the most pressing issue today is to dismantle that image of europe as a land of milk and honey. europe is actually terrible to come to unless you are specifically needed. the reason why europe is relatively rich is because our level of education and qualification is very high but together with our focus on social security and competition it means that everyone who is below our extremely high productivity will never have a decent live nor will give his children a fair shot. (latter especially true in germany because our education system has serious flaws). objectively the life as a welfare recipent in germany is better than the life of an average guy in afghanistan or syria at the moment but wealth is always measured relatively so only very few of the refugees will find happiness. sending a message that people who come here have no chance of ever getting somewhere is really not that far from the truth.
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On January 29 2016 04:11 Sent. wrote:
It looks like they want to do exactly what those crazy right-wing nationalists demanded some time ago.
- Moving refugees and migrants back to Turkey.
- Regarding Turkey as a safe country
- Giving Turkey some real support
- Taking people from refugee camps outside of EU after a proper checkup.
- Making illegal entrances pointless just like Australia does.
- Pushing for Europe-wide agreement instead of that chaotic mess we had so far.
I bet some right-wingers will be like "haha! I told you guys" if this goes through
Flying refugees in planes to western Europe? Doesn't sound like what right wing extremists propose. All they say: "Close the border. Problem solved."
Fact is, we have this huge organisation the EU. We have this huge organisation NATO. Then there is a war and refugees come and we have no solution. Either decide to take them in, and take them in humanely (will cost us money and social cohesion). Or decide to try to keep them out no matter what, and attempt that (will not work and cause unneeded additional suffering).
Right now we are just sticking our hands into the sand. Taking control, accepting people are going to come and taking them in proactively is not a bad idea and is something right wing extremists strongly oppose.
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On January 29 2016 03:53 Plansix wrote:
The classic internet argument of “You misstated what I said, now let me heap an argument upon you that you never made so I can argue against it. Check mate.” Classic.
The irony of this quote coming from one of the most intellectually dishonest people on teamliquid is incredible. a
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On January 29 2016 08:21 trulojucreathrma.com wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 04:11 Sent. wrote:
It looks like they want to do exactly what those crazy right-wing nationalists demanded some time ago.
- Moving refugees and migrants back to Turkey.
- Regarding Turkey as a safe country
- Giving Turkey some real support
- Taking people from refugee camps outside of EU after a proper checkup.
- Making illegal entrances pointless just like Australia does.
- Pushing for Europe-wide agreement instead of that chaotic mess we had so far.
I bet some right-wingers will be like "haha! I told you guys" if this goes through Flying refugees in planes to western Europe? Doesn't sound like what right wing extremists propose. All they say: "Close the border. Problem solved." Fact is, we have this huge organisation the EU. We have this huge organisation NATO. Then there is a war and refugees come and we have no solution. Either decide to take them in, and take them in humanely (will cost us money and social cohesion). Or decide to try to keep them out no matter what, and attempt that (will not work and cause unneeded additional suffering). Right now we are just sticking our hands into the sand. Taking control, accepting people are going to come and taking them in proactively is not a bad idea and is something right wing extremists strongly oppose.
Wanna maybe start sending letters to your Senate representatives in US since you guys are doing big nothing atm, apart of lecturing people on TL in EU what to do.
Also, please stop messing with unstable regions that had stable dictators, it dosn't lead to anything good, your gov should have learned that lesson long time ago.
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On January 29 2016 09:19 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 03:53 Plansix wrote:
The classic internet argument of “You misstated what I said, now let me heap an argument upon you that you never made so I can argue against it. Check mate.” Classic. The irony of this quote coming from one of the most intellectually dishonest people on teamliquid is incredible.
Intellectually dishonest is a serious ethical threat to hyperbolic, surface level internet discussion.
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On January 29 2016 10:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 09:19 bo1b wrote:On January 29 2016 03:53 Plansix wrote:
The classic internet argument of “You misstated what I said, now let me heap an argument upon you that you never made so I can argue against it. Check mate.” Classic. The irony of this quote coming from one of the most intellectually dishonest people on teamliquid is incredible. Intellectually dishonest is a serious ethical threat to hyperbolic, surface level internet discussion.
It's incredible how good you are at shifting a discussion away from a topic you don't like, or intentionally misinterpreting a quote someone says in order to undermine their position. Kudos, without people like you hyperbolic, surface level internet discussion wouldn't get its chance to truly flourish.
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Yeah that original quote coming from P6 is pretty amusing.
Since Australia is being brought up again it's worth pointing out that our "solution" depends on us being an island a very long way away, with borders that are infinitely less porous than yours and also all under the aegis of a single political entity.
Even then, there are extremely serious issues around the conditions in the processing centres, the associated blackout, and the draconian lengths the Government has had to go to to stop doctors etc. talking about how awful it is there.
I think some kind of off-site processing is necessary if you're planning to reject nonstandard arrivals, but I would not try very hard to emulate our system.
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These western values that you cherish so dearly are the values that will be our civilisations undoing. This is the fall of Rome all over again.
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On January 29 2016 18:03 odeSSa wrote:
These western values that you cherish so dearly are the values that will be our civilisations undoing. This is the fall of Rome all over again.
the values that are one of the main pillars of our civilization will be their undoing as well?
no. and no to the rome analogy as well. I would look to the US for that one.
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yes. and yes.
people have not yet figured out what to do with their freedoms.
the western world brought itself to the bring of extinction(with the help of its culture) and the best they could come up with is - just move other people here!; stuff fixed, case closed.
men, sometimes i think that you deserve to have your whole culture totally destroyed since it fails basic evolutionary demands. just let nature take its course and get extinct.
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is this some kind of romanian humor I am basically unable to recognize?
culture starts with people. discussion culture too. doom and gloom is under the circumstances... inappopriate and misguided.
sure "we" have a lot of problems, among the newer ones quite a lot of refugees from different cultures and backgrounds. trying to construct the end of europe and its culture is just bull though. we survived 2 friggin world wars not too long ago, the cold war. countless others before that.
I think we will be alright in the end.
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You make it sound as if these values are the foundation upon which our civilisation where built, but they are not. These values, and by these values I mean the progressive humanistic liberal values of modern society, are but a brief exception in our history. They will either be the last breath of this civilisation, or if we find our way back, serve as a reminder of how fragile our society is, and how quickly the thin veil of civilisation can disappear before our eyes.
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most of your post is absolutely true, and yes they are also an exception. and we live this exception.
those values shaped the american constitution, and after that basically all others to various degrees. they are part of the framework upon our political system is built. and they are going nowhere, at least not soon and not fast.
second pillar is our economic strength. third is science. and they are all interconnected. if one gets weaker, all others will more or less suffer as well.
now, the interesting part is which values are we talking about  philosophical/religious? both? humanistic maybe?
need to jump ship for now, but will be back later. damn meetings.
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I don't consider myself a liberal, but I find many classical liberal values are plausible or at least compatible with how I like to view western civilisation. In the end though, I find that these values and ideas, when taken far enough, really contain their own refutation within themselves (I blame Kant and Rousseau).
It's these ideas that when taken far enough, leads to what we see now: radical skepticism, cultural relativism, gender- and identity politics, cultural masochism, exotification of 'The Other'.
I can elaborate on this later but I must jump ship as well for now!
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On January 29 2016 09:23 Narw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 08:21 trulojucreathrma.com wrote:On January 29 2016 04:11 Sent. wrote:
It looks like they want to do exactly what those crazy right-wing nationalists demanded some time ago.
- Moving refugees and migrants back to Turkey.
- Regarding Turkey as a safe country
- Giving Turkey some real support
- Taking people from refugee camps outside of EU after a proper checkup.
- Making illegal entrances pointless just like Australia does.
- Pushing for Europe-wide agreement instead of that chaotic mess we had so far.
I bet some right-wingers will be like "haha! I told you guys" if this goes through Flying refugees in planes to western Europe? Doesn't sound like what right wing extremists propose. All they say: "Close the border. Problem solved." Fact is, we have this huge organisation the EU. We have this huge organisation NATO. Then there is a war and refugees come and we have no solution. Either decide to take them in, and take them in humanely (will cost us money and social cohesion). Or decide to try to keep them out no matter what, and attempt that (will not work and cause unneeded additional suffering). Right now we are just sticking our hands into the sand. Taking control, accepting people are going to come and taking them in proactively is not a bad idea and is something right wing extremists strongly oppose. Wanna maybe start sending letters to your Senate representatives in US since you guys are doing big nothing atm, apart of lecturing people on TL in EU what to do. Also, please stop messing with unstable regions that had stable dictators, it dosn't lead to anything good, your gov should have learned that lesson long time ago.
What are you talking about? The whole reason the Us intervenes IS to destabilize the region. A destabilized middle east is great for Israel.
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Yes war on your doorstep is fantastic. Especially when it spawns factions who want to conquer your country.
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On January 29 2016 22:14 RvB wrote:
Yes war on your doorstep is fantastic. Especially when it spawns factions who want to conquer your country.
Are you serious? As if some factions are more dangerous than unified arabic countries that want to conquer you.
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Arabs are known for being pretty weak soldiers, so dont worry.
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EPT
