EPT
It's slightly ironic to expect the government of another country to have your best interests in mind, complaining when they don't, but taking their money regardless.
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United Kingdom3341 Posts
It's slightly ironic to expect the government of another country to have your best interests in mind, complaining when they don't, but taking their money regardless. | ||
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Maluk
France987 Posts
On January 06 2016 13:28 Nyxisto wrote: Everybody knows that there are problems and that integrating millions of people will be a rocky task. But there isn't actually any easy solution to this. The reality is that people are willing to give up their life to come here, and we've agreed to not let them die, so that's that. Instituting bureaucratic "upper limits" doesn't actually do anything in the real world, and giving up every single one of our civil liberties probably isn't worth it either. Does there need to be a limit then ? You're apparently saying that every single person that is willing to "give up their life" (let's say that is actually what is going on) to come to Europe should be allowed to do so. Is there absolutely no limit to the number of people that should enter Europe this way ? Or is there still some sort of limit above which Germany cannot go ? If Germany maintains its generous policy for 20 years, it has to become the home of 20 million refugees, in theory. Would that still be reasonable ? And if not, does that not mean that some kind of limit has to be found, which implies that not everyone who wishes to enter Europe is immediately accepted, on the sole basis of that will to enter the continent ? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5811 Posts
On January 06 2016 20:29 dismiss wrote: Maybe because Poland was the recipient of vast quantities of money, a large part of which came from Germany, through the EU. It's slightly ironic to expect the government of another country to have your best interests in mind, complaining when they don't, but taking their money regardless. Roughly 80% of the money that Germany gives to Poland through the EU goes directly back to Germany. Add to that the massive loans we have to take mostly in western banks (some of which are German) in order to be able to receive that EU money and the massive profits German companies are making in Poland thanks to the open market or the horrendous sums of money some German companies are illegally funneling out of Poland (some $30 bln during the past several years), and it suddenly stops looking like Germany is giving us charity money... I know it's ironic. You know what's also ironic (or rather hypocritical)? Germany preaching European solidarity while actually not giving shit about it. The funny thing is that our previous government did just that - it seemed to have Germany's best interest in mind, often taking priority over Poland's best interest. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On January 06 2016 12:18 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: It's because Germany is a nation scared of any external action it takes. In other words Germany is scared of itself. The German government was not really scared to crush Greece back into submission. | ||
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United Kingdom3341 Posts
On January 06 2016 20:52 maybenexttime wrote: Roughly 80% of the money that Germany gives to Poland through the EU goes directly back to Germany. Add to that the massive loans we have to take mostly in western banks (some of which are German) in order to be able to receive that EU money and the massive profits German companies are making in Poland thanks to the open market or the horrendous sums of money some German companies are illegally funneling out of Poland (some $30 bln during the past several years), and it suddenly stops looking like Germany is giving us charity money... I know it's ironic. You know what's also ironic (or rather hypocritical)? Germany preaching European solidarity while actually not giving shit about it. The funny thing is that our previous government did just that - it seemed to have Germany's best interest in mind, often taking priority over Poland's best interest. Those are some serious conspiracy theories you got going on there, sorry normal economic transactions apparently are Germany's plan to subjugate Poland. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10886 Posts
On January 06 2016 21:06 dismiss wrote: Those are some serious conspiracy theories you got going on there, sorry normal economic transactions apparently are Germany's plan to subjugate Poland. Haven't you got the Memo? If a european country has a problem its allways germanies fault. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11840 Posts
On January 06 2016 20:52 maybenexttime wrote: Roughly 80% of the money that Germany gives to Poland through the EU goes directly back to Germany. Add to that the massive loans we have to take mostly in western banks (some of which are German) in order to be able to receive that EU money and the massive profits German companies are making in Poland thanks to the open market or the horrendous sums of money some German companies are illegally funneling out of Poland (some $30 bln during the past several years), and it suddenly stops looking like Germany is giving us charity money... I know it's ironic. You know what's also ironic (or rather hypocritical)? Germany preaching European solidarity while actually not giving shit about it. The funny thing is that our previous government did just that - it seemed to have Germany's best interest in mind, often taking priority over Poland's best interest. I assume with "goes directly back to Germany" you mean "We buy German stuff with that money"? In which case you may no longer have the money, but you have the stuff you bought. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On January 06 2016 21:09 Velr wrote: Haven't you got the Memo? If a european country has a problem its allways germanies fault. The system is flawed, and germany is one of the few country that benefit from it, so they kinda attract (stupidly, they are not at fault) the blame. Again, the underlying reason as to why german accept that many migrant are economic, and not out of the pureness of their hearth, it's the only country that need that much labor (no unemployment, old population), and it is not limited to refugees : which country receive more greeks, french, spanish and italians ? | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8747 Posts
On January 06 2016 12:53 Mohdoo wrote: It doesn't make sense. What percentage of Germany's population was even alive during Nazi Germany? Nazi Germany is 100% disconnected from current day Germany. I would argue they are two separate countries. People have such a strange tendency to identify with previous generations even though the similarity is minuscule. Germany doesn't have a debt to pay, they don't need to be so ridiculous about this whole migrant situation. The irony is that their country is suffering. They are essentially punching themselves in the face because their grandfather was an asshole. that's very wrong on many different levels. saying nazi germany is 100% disconnected from today's germany is like saying the british colonies of America are 100% disconnected from today's USA. history is a living breathing thing... despite some saying it's dead and gone. the ghosts and good/bad demons haunt every country to various degrees. or don't you take pride in the 4th of july and know exactly why you are in the US of A today? thinking about the 20th century in germany/austria is a story of one horrible or ruthless(or both) decision after another and paying a dear price for it in the end. but also having a lesson in humility and self reflection, if people are finally ready to take it. fyi, up to like ~1968 - pupils in school did not properly learn about what was going on during WWII. the shame, frustration... basically the wound was still too fresh for some and the people were not really denazified in austria (waldheim anyone?), we were the "first victim" of the third reich after all according to the moscow declaration. germany did a much better job at that, as they were the "sole" perpetrator they had to. and that's like what, 2 - 3 generations at best that finally get all the info and all sides of the argument now? the 20th century is very alive my friend. just think of today's "debate" of lazy, spoiled millenials vs. the greatest generation in the US. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6342 Posts
On January 06 2016 08:59 Velr wrote: ahm.. yeah, thats what the police should do. people act against our rules ---> fuck them, hit them with rubber bulletes, teargas or whatever. That the german police wasn't able to respond is... worrying (to say the least). If the German police had gone around beating up and arresting 1000 'refugees' they would be under even more fire. Of course, it is the womens fault they were molested by all those doctors and engineers coming into the country if you ask the mayor of Cologne. edit: No police officer want to be the guy you see on a youtube video beating a muslim looking character without any context as to why the muslim is being beaten in the first place. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9299 Posts
Seeing people calling our membership in the Union a German charity and telling us to shut up whenever the old Europe does something against our interests because of how the European budget works is annoying. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
On January 06 2016 22:33 Sent. wrote: About those unpaid reparatons, I think its not Germany's fault that USSR made us reject the money. It would be interesting to see this case brought up in some international court though. Seeing people calling our membership in the Union a German charity and telling us to shut up whenever the old Europe does something against our interests because of how the European budget works is annoying. Just out of curiosity (I really don't care either way) but wouldn't Germany automatically get a good claim to its former territories if the contract, where Poland forfeited reparations from the GDR, would be declared illegal? | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8747 Posts
it is always easier to have an outside enemy you can blame for everything going wrong on the inside. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9299 Posts
On January 06 2016 22:56 silynxer wrote: Just out of curiosity (I really don't care either way) but wouldn't Germany automatically get a good claim to its former territories if the contract, where Poland forfeited reparations from the GDR, would be declared illegal? It wasn't a contract, we forfeited the reparations unilateraly and some people say only those from Eastern Germany. Treaty of Zgorzelec about Oder-Neisse border was signed between Polalnd and GDR in 1950 which is 4 years before our declaration but obviously the West didn't recognise it. Then there was a 1990 treaty that's supposed to end all discussions about the border. That's why I would like to see this case in court, would be interesting to see what kind of arguments both sides could present. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5811 Posts
On January 06 2016 21:06 dismiss wrote: Those are some serious conspiracy theories you got going on there, sorry normal economic transactions apparently are Germany's plan to subjugate Poland. Those are facts, not conspiracy theories. The 80% is according to Johannes Hahn, the European Commissioner for Regional Policy. The $30 bln being funneled out of Poland by German companies over the course of several past years is according to Global Financial Integrity, Illicit Financial Flows from Developing Countries: 2004-2013. Go back to your Lala-Lang where Germany helps other countries out of the goodness of heart. On January 06 2016 21:21 Simberto wrote: I assume with "goes directly back to Germany" you mean "We buy German stuff with that money"? In which case you may no longer have the money, but you have the stuff you bought. Precisely. I did not mean that we don't get anything from the EU/Germany's financial support (although the funds were being wasted for many years, which is of course our own fault). My point was that this is hardly a sacrifice on Germany's part. While those funds are a boon to Poland's economy, they are also indirectly subsidizing Germany's own industry. When you take into account the interest from loans in German banks that we take to cover our share of the investments, as well as enormous profits German companies are making in Poland, then the outcome is easily a net positive for Germany. This is why all those comments that we should shut up because we get "free money from the EU/Germany" piss me off. On January 06 2016 22:56 silynxer wrote: Just out of curiosity (I really don't care either way) but wouldn't Germany automatically get a good claim to its former territories if the contract, where Poland forfeited reparations from the GDR, would be declared illegal? I am nor sure that it would be the case. According to Julius Stone, an expert on international law (this is pertaining to the Israel-Palestine conflict): "International law forbids acquisition by unlawful force, but not where, as in the case of Israel's self-defence in 1967, the entry on the territory was lawful. It does not so forbid it, in particular, when the force is used to stop an aggressor, for the effect of such prohibition would be to guarantee to all potential aggressors that, even if their aggression failed, all territory lost in the attempt would be automatically returned to them. Such a rule would be absurd to the point of lunacy. There is no such rule…" Although his views are considered controversial by some, the bolded part makes sense to me. Germany lost territory in a war of aggression. On top of that, Poland lost territory in the east of Europe (the net loss was roughly 1%, if I am not mistaken). | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 07 2016 01:34 maybenexttime wrote: Those are facts, not conspiracy theories. The 80% is according to Johannes Hahn, the European Commissioner for Regional Policy. The $30 bln being funneled out of Poland by German companies over the course of several past years is according to Global Financial Integrity, Illicit Financial Flows from Developing Countries: 2004-2013. Go back to your Lala-Lang where Germany helps other countries out of the goodness of heart. Precisely. I did not mean that we don't get anything from the EU/Germany's financial support (although the funds were being wasted for many years, which is of course our own fault). My point was that this is hardly a sacrifice on Germany's part. While those funds are a boon to Poland's economy, they are also indirectly subsidizing Germany's own industry. When you take into account the interest from loans in German banks that we take to cover our share of the investments, as well as enormous profits German companies are making in Poland, then the outcome is easily a net positive for Germany. This is why all those comments that we should shut up because we get "free money from the EU/Germany" piss me off. I am nor sure that it would be the case. According to Julius Stone, an expert on international law (this is pertaining to the Israel-Palestine conflict): "International law forbids acquisition by unlawful force, but not where, as in the case of Israel's self-defence in 1967, the entry on the territory was lawful. It does not so forbid it, in particular, when the force is used to stop an aggressor, for the effect of such prohibition would be to guarantee to all potential aggressors that, even if their aggression failed, all territory lost in the attempt would be automatically returned to them. Such a rule would be absurd to the point of lunacy. There is no such rule…" Although his views are considered controversial by some, the bolded part makes sense to me. Germany lost territory in a war of aggression. On top of that, Poland lost territory in the east of Europe (the net loss was roughly 1%, if I am not mistaken). Let's be honest, its only controversial because a lot of people hate Isreal. Territories ebbed and flowed for all of history until 1967, then it became very controversial. | ||
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United Kingdom3341 Posts
On January 06 2016 23:27 Sent. wrote: It wasn't a contract, we forfeited the reparations unilateraly and some people say only those from Eastern Germany. Treaty of Zgorzelec about Oder-Neisse border was signed between Polalnd and GDR in 1950 which is 4 years before our declaration but obviously the West didn't recognise it. Then there was a 1990 treaty that's supposed to end all discussions about the border. That's why I would like to see this case in court, would be interesting to see what kind of arguments both sides could present. Well, the funny thing is that the German-Polish border treaty goes in tandem with the 2+4 one. Which also settles the issue regarding any war reparations, at least according to the German government. It's very funny how maybenexttime quotes a guy who's basically a super radical Jewish guy defending Israeli settlement in the Gaza Strip and West Bank by yelling about the holocaust. But he wants to go back to the pre perestroika USSR since clearly Germany exporting goods to Poland is a terrible scourge on their economy, putting them in Germany's debtors prison. Until another politician travels to Canada to be impressed by them stocking different foodstuffs in their super markets, I guess. | ||
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Trurl
Germany14 Posts
Well, the funny thing is that the German-Polish border treaty goes in tandem with the 2+4 one. Which also settles the issue regarding any war reparations, at least according to the German government. The German government and reparations/restitutions is not a very glorious chapter though. I just looked up at which time the restitutions for forced laborers were paid, and a large part of it was paid as late as 2000. Other restitutions and reparations were delayed in a similar fashion. Still, discussing the Oder-Neisse-border or reparations in 2016 does not relate to any of the current problems. + Show Spoiler + But I don't see why we should not remind about it at times when Germany does something abusive to our country (such as: Nord Stream 1 & 2, which not only are a threat to our energy security, but also prevents us from upgrading some of our ports, German restitution claims or demanding truck drivers driving through Germany to be paid German minimum wages, which could make our transportation companies go bankrupt). The miminum wage law might be detrimental to some of your companies, but how is it "abusive"? And can you elaborate on the Nord Stream/port business please? | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On January 06 2016 21:31 WhiteDog wrote: The system is flawed, and germany is one of the few country that benefit from it, so they kinda attract (stupidly, they are not at fault) the blame. Again, the underlying reason as to why german accept that many migrant are economic, and not out of the pureness of their hearth, it's the only country that need that much labor (no unemployment, old population), and it is not limited to refugees : which country receive more greeks, french, spanish and italians ? Yeah sure, there's no unemployment in Germany, that's why Merkel got no opposition at all when she decided to welcome immigrants. I also heard all German drive $100,000 Mercedes and that you can find Euro bills in their trash bins. | ||
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