EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 353
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United Kingdom3341 Posts
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kornetka
Poland129 Posts
On December 14 2015 23:49 maybenexttime wrote: I don't care whether or not PiS had any objections with those nominations. I am talking about the facts. The Constitutional Tribunal was evidently partisan as regards the matter in question. Three of the judges had worked on the act that was later on deemed as partially unconstitutional (although it was PO that added in the questionable article). When PiS objected, the president of the Tribunal first downplayed the objection and then procrastinated for several months and intended not to exclude the three involved judges from adjudicating on the matter, despite an obvious conflict of interest. (...) Wrong and wrong. The tribunal doesn't act on its own. They review cases brought to them by president/government/deputies/etc. A group of deputies from PiS appealed to the tribunal to review this case on October 23rd, so this 'several months' is an utter bullshit. And they did exclude the judges when the investigation started. They couldn't exclude the judge from the case that doesn't exist. Nice links/sources, unfortunately in Polish: www.rp.pl, www.polskieradio.pl | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 15 2015 03:25 WhiteDog wrote: The FN (intelligently - the FN is very good from a strategic standpoint, it basically robbed the extreme left) never took side in regards to the gay mariage Except this is false: they did explicitly take sides, and they were (unsurprisingly) against allowing homosexuals to marry and adopt. Marine Le Pen and Florian Philippot themselves may not have officially called to join the demonstrations against gay marriage, but the political bureau of the party still explicitly stated before the law was passed the party's "historical opposition to marriage and adoption for homosexual couples". This position can also be found in the party's press releases. The FN also had a delegation in the demonstrations against the law, and the bureau likewise invited FN representatives, executives and sympathizers to join them in the demonstrations if they wanted to protest the law (many did, including the only two FN representatives at the National Assembly). After it passed, Marine Le Pen declared that she would get rid of same-sex marriage if she was elected (non-retroactively). | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On December 14 2015 18:57 maybenexttime wrote: First of all, did you actually see the interview and know the context or are you simply relying on excerpts from TVN or such? "Gazeta Wyborcza" and TVN are doing exactly what Niezalezna.pl or "wSieci" have been doing with taking Bieńkowska's quote out of context ("Only idiots (...)"). I did not see anything controversial in what Kaczyński said in that interview (at least the part in question). This is so hillariously annoying to read this over and over and over again that if i don't agree with PiS worldview and decision making i must be reading Wyborcza or watching TVN all day every day. And you don't see anything controversial? I guess you got used to the rhetoric that anyone who isn't with all mighty Kaczynski is the enemy of Poland and should be ashamed of even existing. I for sure didn't. If you think that current events surrounding Constitutional Tribunal aren't dangerous from the national view, i don't know what needs to happen. I don't understand how you can go in line with rhetoric where political party that have huge majority in parliment and President which is walking definition of word "puppet" tries to take control over one of the last democratic mechanisms of supervision that isn't fully in their hands. They have majority, they don't have CONSTITUIONAL majority so take your fucking hands away from Constitution and respect the law. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5811 Posts
On December 15 2015 03:46 kornetka wrote: Wrong and wrong. The tribunal doesn't act on its own. They review cases brought to them by president/government/deputies/etc. A group of deputies from PiS appealed to the tribunal to review this case on October 23rd, so this 'several months' is an utter bullshit. And they did exclude the judges when the investigation started. They couldn't exclude the judge from the case that doesn't exist. Nice links/sources, unfortunately in Polish: www.rp.pl, www.polskieradio.pl I've read that PiS brought up their issue with this article of the act during one sitting of the commission. Apparently PiS indeed did not file an actual appeal until October, my mistake. But the fact that those three judges must've been aware of the questionable article added in by PO remains. When PiS does something they don't like, the Tribunal is very vocal about it. When PO did, the Tribunal ignored it, despite having ample opportunity to amend the situation. On the second account, you are wrong. Initially the president of the Tribunal made a decision that the Tribunal would review the case as a full court (which is required by law in that instance), which would necessitate at least one of the three involved judges to partake (that would be the president of the Tribunal, Rzepliński, who would preside). Only when PiS brought up the conflict of interest, did Rzepliński back out of his decision. http://db.trybunal.gov.pl/sprawa/sprawa_pobierz_plik200.asp?plik=F1475000606/K_34_15_zarzPrzew_2015_11_19_ADO.pdf&syg=K 34/15 On December 15 2015 04:24 Narw wrote: This is so hillariously annoying to read this over and over and over again that if i don't agree with PiS worldview and decision making i must be reading Wyborcza or watching TVN all day every day. And you don't see anything controversial? I guess you got used to the rhetoric that anyone who isn't with all mighty Kaczynski is the enemy of Poland and should be ashamed of even existing. I for sure didn't. Where did I imply you read GW or watch TVN daily? I simply gathered from your post that you must've read that quote taken out of context. He was not talking about those protesting masses as a whole. He meant specifically a group of people who inherited its influence from the communist nomenclature, and turned into self-proclaimed "liberals" and likened them to other people who sought foreign intervention in Poland's internal matters (Communists and Targowica Confederation, I assume). (Which is why I compared to Bieńkowska's quote being taken out of context, as she also was talking about a very specific case.) He said that those people are more active now [because they are worried about their privileged status]. So, no, I don't find it controversial. I would even go as far as saying there is some merit to what he said (with regard to that specific group of people). Ever since PiS won the elections you constantly see foreign media (associated with GW) talking about the end of democracy in Poland. During the last eight years PO was involved in many scandals that were more controversial than the whole Tribunal debacle, yet you did not see foreign media lamenting... That doesn't mean I don't find the rhetoric used by both sides distasteful. I do. On one hand you have "wSieci" painting sympathizers of PO or Nowoczesna as "self-hating Poles whose dream is to become Europeans" and on the other hand you have "Gazeta Wyborcza" painting sympathizers of PiS "backwards religious nuts". It's just that I don't consider the quote in question as an example of that. If you think that current events surrounding Constitutional Tribunal aren't dangerous from the national view, i don't know what needs to happen. I don't understand how you can go in line with rhetoric where political party that have huge majority in parliment and President which is walking definition of word "puppet" tries to take control over one of the last democratic mechanisms of supervision that isn't fully in their hands. They have majority, they don't have CONSTITUIONAL majority so take your fucking hands away from Constitution and respect the law. I think the following quote from one Polish movie describes it well: "You cheated. I cheated. The better player won." I think PO tried to do something very sleazy and PiS punished them for that, doing something sleazy themselves and getting more than they deserve in the process. It's all a testament to the pathetic state of our political culture. But is the situation dangerous? I doubt it. As far as I know, the Tribunal is still dominated by PO or at least not dominated by PiS by any stretch of imagination and will remain so. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On December 15 2015 05:04 Nyxisto wrote: The whole atmosphere in Poland surrounding the new government sounds a little bit like Putin's United Russia or Erdogan's AKP. As soon as you're not on board you're part of the fifth column and a filthy internationalist. It's somewhat sad how one Eastern European country after another drives up the internal anti-commie rhetoric while drifting into the same authoritarian style of government. actually that's something you do. if someone is not on board with globalization, free market, gay marriage/adoption or if someone is not purposely color blind, then he is a filthy nationalist-nazi-racist or suffers various phobias(xenophobia, homophobia, womanophobia ...) oh boy, the similarities!. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On December 15 2015 05:04 Nyxisto wrote: The whole atmosphere in Poland surrounding the new government sounds a little bit like Putin's United Russia or Erdogan's AKP. As soon as you're not on board you're part of the fifth column and a filthy internationalist. It's somewhat sad how one Eastern European country after another drives up the internal anti-commie rhetoric while drifting into the same authoritarian style of government. Honestly, this post is not only ignorant but disgustingly intolerant of the idea that there might be political philosophies other than "West European Right" and "West European Left" that exist and are popular in their countries of origin for a reason. Not sure what else to add. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4756 Posts
On December 15 2015 16:21 xM(Z wrote: actually that's something you do. if someone is not on board with globalization, free market, gay marriage/adoption or if someone is not purposely color blind, then he is a filthy nationalist-nazi-racist or suffers various phobias(xenophobia, homophobia, womanophobia ...) oh boy, the similarities!. It works both way. The right just use different slurs eg. "traitor", "fifth column", "communist" etc. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
The European Union has seen little evidence that Turkey has managed to reduce departures of migrants for Greek islands in the two weeks since it signed an agreement to do so, an EU document showed on Dec. 17. why would they pay 3bill to Turkey but then fly the refugees directly to EU?.The report by the Luxembourg government, in its current capacity as president of EU ministerial councils, said about 4,000 people a day arrived from Turkey since the accord on Nov. 29, a “slight reduction” from the 5,000-6,000 seen earlier in that month. But this was not necessarily due to Turkish action. “This decrease may, however, also be attributed to other factors,” said the report, seen by Reuters and sent to EU leaders on Dec. 16 ahead of a summit on Dec. 17 in Brussels at which they will discuss efforts to stem the migration crisis. ... Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu will meet German Chancellor Angela Merkel and some other leaders before the main summit on Dec. 17 to discuss a possible scheme to bring Syrian refugees directly from Turkey to Europe. But many EU leaders have stressed that any such move depends on seeing evidence that Turkey is working to prevent people smugglers putting people to sea to reach Europe. That is also true of disbursement of the 3 billion euros ($3.3 billion) they pledged to Ankara on Nov. 29 and other concessions, such as easing visa rules for Turks coming to the EU. shenanigans. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On December 15 2015 16:38 LegalLord wrote: Honestly, this post is not only ignorant but disgustingly intolerant of the idea that there might be political philosophies other than "West European Right" and "West European Left" that exist and are popular in their countries of origin for a reason. Not sure what else to add. You seem to forget that in contrast to Russia and/or Turkey Poland is a member of the European Union and a huge net benefactor of its funds. 2% of their GDP actually annually over the next for years. You can practice whatever political ideology you want, it would just be more honest to do it without joining a union that is based on those evil disgusting Western principles and without collecting the benefits. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5811 Posts
On December 18 2015 15:58 Nyxisto wrote: You seem to forget that in contrast to Russia and/or Turkey Poland is a member of the European Union and a huge net benefactor of its funds. 2% of their GDP actually annually over the next for years. You can practice whatever political ideology you want, it would just be more honest to do it without joining a union that is based on those evil disgusting Western principles and without collecting the benefits. "Huge net benefactor" is an overstatement. According to Johannes Hahn, European Commissioner for Regional Policy 89 percent of the funds given by Germany to Poland will go directly back to Germany in form of contracts (could not find a source for other Western EU countries, but I guess it is considerably less, since our economic exchange with Germany eclipses our economic exchange with the former). When you take into account that our share of the investments often has to be covered through loans taken in Western banks and that a large part of these funds was misappropriated by our administration (our own fault), then it stops looking like such an amazing boon to our economy. http://wyborcza.biz/biznes/1,106928,12604718,Komisarz_UE_ds__polityki_regionalnej__Teraz_inwestujcie.html "Analizy przygotowane przez nas wspólnie z polskimi władzami pokazują, że z 1 euro wydanego przez Niemcy w Polsce w ramach polityki strukturalnej 89 eurocentów wróci do Niemiec w postaci zamówień dla niemieckich firm - mówił komisarz UE ds. polityki regionalnej Johannes Hahn." (I am afraid there is no English source) | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On December 18 2015 16:44 xM(Z wrote: well you're fine with refugees collecting benefits blindly believing in some uncertain future in which they'll pay them back. Is there a certain future? If yes you should quickly become our policy adviser, we are in dire need of oracles over here. I'll take careful optimism over Eastern European existential dread every day. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2015 02:10 Nyxisto wrote: Is there a certain future? If yes you should quickly become our policy adviser, we are in dire need of oracles over here. I'll take careful optimism over Eastern European existential dread every day. Also the concern fails to take into account that benefits could be adjusted or changed if they are a burden a nations budget. That the country isn't locked in forever and just hoping they will take in enough tax revenue. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 19 2015 02:22 Plansix wrote: Also the concern fails to take into account that benefits could be adjusted or changed if they are a burden a nations budget. That the country isn't locked in forever and just hoping they will take in enough tax revenue. That's a very optimistic take. The benefits systems of most developed nations are sever burdens on nations and the only time they get reduced is when external forces demand it, I.e. Greece. Plus, with selective reduction for immigrants, I can't wait for the shrill calls of racism from the left. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
http://www.wsj.com/articles/study-finds-germany-is-benefitting-from-immigration-1417103495 | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 19 2015 02:29 Nyxisto wrote: You have it the wrong way around, the biggest threat to our social security is a shrinking workforce and an aging population. There is overwhelming consensus among economists that at least in terms of social security immigrants will not be a long or mid-term burden but a huge net benefit. That's not even what I was saying. I'm saying the programs of social security are already massive burdens and don't get reformed without crisis. I see the assertion that an analogous program for immigrants would be reformed if its a problem overly optimistic based on past and current experiences with analogous special interest programs. Also, how do immigrants fix the long term budget? Do they not age and then receive benefits just as the natives do? What I've read is that they generally have incomes below the median in EU when they get there. So, short and mid term they may be a budget plus (because young people don't get as many benefits) but long term they contribute less tax revenue than a native while getting the same benefits at 60+. | ||
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