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On December 20 2015 19:56 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 19:37 WhiteDog wrote:On December 20 2015 18:46 Yuljan wrote:On December 20 2015 18:10 nitram wrote:On December 19 2015 03:11 Nyxisto wrote:
Germany is making a “considerable” financial profit from the surge in immigrants, with its 6.6 million foreigners helping to fund the aging country’s costly welfare system, a study published Thursday showed.
Foreigners paid on average €3,300 ($4,127) more in taxes and social security contributions in 2012 than they took out in benefits, generating a €22 billion surplus for the public coffers that year, according to a study by the nonpartisan ZEW economic institute which was commissioned by the Bertelsmann Foundation.
The study offers a strong rebuttal to the thesis of Germany’s anti-immigration parties and segments of the political mainstream—and the belief of many Germans—that fast-rising immigration is becoming too heavy a drain on the country’s finances.
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Immigration to Germany surged over the past years, reaching a 20-year high of 1,226,000 last year. Germany has become the second most popular destination for economic migrants after the U.S., according to a report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development published earlier this year.“The crisis in southern European countries has brought a well-educated workforce to Germany. The numbers won’t stay so high permanently,” said Jörg Dräger, board member of the Bertelsmann Foundation. “Germany must become an attractive immigration country permanently because its social security systems, public budgets and the labor market will get under pressure due to the demographic changes.”
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Thursday’s study stressed the need for Germany’s labor market to be made more accessible to foreigners if the country was to continue benefiting from migration.
“The better qualified the immigrants are, the higher their contribution to public budgets,” said Mr. Bonin.
Bertelsmann Foundation said Germany must embrace a new immigration policy if it wants to be able to keep its welfare system. Low unemployment means several sectors of the economy are facing acute skills shortages.
What a stupid misleading article. Who exactly are these immigrants? Are they the extremist muslims flooding Europe or the skilled Polish immigrants that already know German and have a similar culture? Take a wild guess who is overrepresented in crime, unemployment and low educational achievements. I know the answer : poor people. I nailed that, hahahahahaha. And among poor people alone?
Immigrants are over represented, mostly because they are more susceptible to discrimination, stigmatisation, have trouble integrating due to language and culture, etc.
The core of the problem is not to discard the legitimate fear of the population towards immigration (because most of those feelings are true), and not to argue that immigrants will always integrate without any problem, with the underlying belief that the market will give them job (instantly) and permit them to participate in the social life (that has no content in this social philosophy), whatever the economic or political context. But at the other side of the spectrum, it is quite ridiculous to limit our social problems to immigration (when it's our entire society that is a mess) : immigrants needs to be managed like any other kind of population, welcomed in a positive manner, with an education (to the language and history of the country that welcome them), a qualification, a job and a place to live (ways to achieve dignity).
On December 20 2015 20:05 dismiss wrote:It's funny, Denmark as the only EU country keeps statistics on the ethnicity of criminals. Behold the results ![[image loading]](https://fenixwordpresscom.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/download.png?w=620) http://www.dst.dk/pukora/epub/upload/17961/indv2013.pdfThis is accounting for socioeconomic status and age already. Clearly it must be only because they're poor right? No cultural component of any kind involved. Note, the huge spike is not even for immigrants, but for 2nd generation people, those who should by all means have "arrived" and integrated into the country properly.
I actually do not dismiss this reality at all.
2 nd generation are not fully integrated, that's the core of the problem. But the integration is not necessarily cultural, it is social : I would argue that, in europe, the youth is badly integrated overall, as it is more susceptible to unemployment (or delinquency) and has a difficult time achieving autonomy, without any cultural content involved (and I'm not saying that the cultural component does not play a role, just that it is grossly overstated).
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Care to translate what is what in this graph?
I did some google-foo and now its clear. Still would be better to include translation in post.
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Denmark's youth unemployment is 5%.
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On December 20 2015 21:03 Ghostcom wrote:
Denmark's youth unemployment is 5%.
I think its more a southern european problem (if we call france southern).
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I know (and agree). I disagree with WhiteDogs attempt to explain the graph based on unemployment.
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On December 21 2015 01:21 Ghostcom wrote:
I know (and agree). I disagree with WhiteDogs attempt to explain the graph based on unemployment.
I didn't try to explain the graph solely on unemployment (integration is much more than just finding a work), I gave an exemple of a population that has, in europe, a deficit of integration despite having the indigene culture. Denmark is what it is (good for them !), in europe there is 20 % average unemployment for the youth, 22 % in the euro zone, even more in the less educated part of the youth.
By the way, any spanish here to give us some insight about what is happening with the election and their feelings on the matter ?
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The thing is you use poverty and unemployment to explain why muslims are overrepresented in crime in all European countries but the thing is they are overrepresented no matter the circumstances. Poverty is not the explanation. A backward 1000 year old culture combined with the fact that they dont seem to put any importance in education and you have our wonderful societies.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 21 2015 02:34 Yuljan wrote:
The thing is you use poverty and unemployment to explain why muslims are overrepresented in crime in all European countries but the thing is they are overrepresented no matter the circumstances. Poverty is not the explanation. A backward 1000 year old culture combined with the fact that they dont seem to put any importance in education and you have our wonderful societies.
The vast majority of crimes are coming from poor/unemployed/stigmatised population. Muslim are overrepresented when you put aside poverty and unemployment, which is what is done in the graph presented before.
Let's be clear, there is most certainly a cultural aspect, but this cultural is grossly overstated. The proof to that has been said already : it's the second generation that are overrepresented, not the migrants. Those second generation usually suffer from a lack of education, stigmatisation and various other social problems that leads them to an identity crisis and (due to our own incapacities) for some of them a return to what they feel is their primordial identity - islam and all that bullshit.
The exact same identity crisis exist in the poorest white populations, that don't go back to islam obviously, but to a certain idea of the nation (the FN is, in this regard, a primordial response to a situation of crisis that goes beyond - and is way more important - than just the migrant question).
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On December 21 2015 02:34 Yuljan wrote:
The thing is you use poverty and unemployment to explain why muslims are overrepresented in crime in all European countries but the thing is they are overrepresented no matter the circumstances. Poverty is not the explanation. A backward 1000 year old culture combined with the fact that they dont seem to put any importance in education and you have our wonderful societies.
The cultural explanation fails to account for the fact that crime rates in many Muslim majority countries are way lower than in almost any developed Western nation. If anything it's the tension between majority and minority groups and not inherent beliefs of the specific group, which isn't surprising given the harsh punishments that almost any criminal faces in the Muslim world combined with their authoritarian governments and law & order politics.
Crime rates among immigrants may be higher because there is no trust in state authorities among such groups, and that is a failure of society as a whole, and a big part of the blame should be directed towards the people who are in charge of those failed institutions, which for the most parts are not the immigrant communities.
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On December 21 2015 02:52 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2015 02:34 Yuljan wrote:
The thing is you use poverty and unemployment to explain why muslims are overrepresented in crime in all European countries but the thing is they are overrepresented no matter the circumstances. Poverty is not the explanation. A backward 1000 year old culture combined with the fact that they dont seem to put any importance in education and you have our wonderful societies. The cultural explanation fails to account for the fact that crime rates in many Muslim majority countries are way lower than in almost any developed Western nation. If anything it's the tension between majority and minority groups and not inherent beliefs of the specific group, which isn't surprising given the harsh punishments that almost any criminal faces in the Muslim world combined with their authoritarian governments and law & order politics. Crime rates among immigrants may be higher because there is no trust in state authorities among such groups, and that is a failure of society as a whole, and a big part of the blame should be directed towards the people who are in charge of those failed institutions, which for the most parts are not the immigrant communities.
You have to check out the laws in those countries, which you say, but then summarily dismiss. And, whether western EU immigrants there have inflated crime rates. IMO you are projecting what you want to be the problem (Whites, white institutions) onto thin facts that are contradicted by evidence.
In the American experience it is not as you state that marginalized minority groups turn to crime (Jews, Indians, Chinese, Koreans all laugh at such an assertion). It is even so throughout the world (Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia, Egyptians in mid-African countries, Beglians and others in Southern African countries). The problem is not having a minority in the country, out that it is not being accommodated, those are both disproven hypothesis around the world. Its a factor within high-crime groups ( that probably varies from group to group) that causes systemic economic failure and high criminality.
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On December 21 2015 03:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2015 02:52 Nyxisto wrote:On December 21 2015 02:34 Yuljan wrote:
The thing is you use poverty and unemployment to explain why muslims are overrepresented in crime in all European countries but the thing is they are overrepresented no matter the circumstances. Poverty is not the explanation. A backward 1000 year old culture combined with the fact that they dont seem to put any importance in education and you have our wonderful societies. The cultural explanation fails to account for the fact that crime rates in many Muslim majority countries are way lower than in almost any developed Western nation. If anything it's the tension between majority and minority groups and not inherent beliefs of the specific group, which isn't surprising given the harsh punishments that almost any criminal faces in the Muslim world combined with their authoritarian governments and law & order politics. Crime rates among immigrants may be higher because there is no trust in state authorities among such groups, and that is a failure of society as a whole, and a big part of the blame should be directed towards the people who are in charge of those failed institutions, which for the most parts are not the immigrant communities. You have to check out the laws in those countries, which you say, but then summarily dismiss. And, whether western EU immigrants there have inflated crime rates. IMO you are projecting what you want to be the problem (Whites, white institutions) onto thin facts that are contradicted by evidence. In the American experience it is not as you state that marginalized minority groups turn to crime (Jews, Indians, Chinese, Koreans all laugh at such an assertion). It is even so throughout the world (Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia, Egyptians in mid-African countries, Beglians and others in Southern African countries). The problem is not having a minority in the country, out that it is not being accommodated, those are both disproven hypothesis around the world. Its a factor within high-crime groups ( that probably varies from group to group) that causes systemic economic failure and high criminality.
Jews, Indians, Chinese, Koreans, all have tight social link, structured group, important communities, that give many services to migrants coming from such ethinicity.
Look at the US history : the groups that distinguish themselves with high delinquency are/were more prone to discrimination, have more trouble acceeding to specific places, are less educated, do not have tight communities. What's in common between the italian, the porto ricans, the black or the scott community in the US (various wave that had high delinquency) ? Yes, there is a specific culture that arise that indeed share various caracteristics - a certain idea of virility, the legitimation of specific deviances, troubling familly ties - but those are usually a response to a situation and not core values shared by all those communities in their home countries.
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No Chinese or Asian organized crime? Some of the world's largest crime syndicates that definitely exist in the US too have their roots in Asia or Latin America and are way more dangerous than some silly street criminality. If you're concerned about inner city criminality in Europe you should look at Eastern European cartels or gang criminality instead of some random Muslim guy robbing a convenient store.
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On December 21 2015 03:48 Nyxisto wrote:
No Chinese or Asian organized crime? Some of the world's largest crime syndicates that definitely exist in the US too have their roots in Asia or Latin America and are way more dangerous than some silly street criminality. If you're concerned about inner city criminality in Europe you should look at Eastern European cartels or gang criminality instead of some random Muslim guy robbing a convenient store.
Some random muslim guys killed 140 people in the street of Paris last month... Just saying, it's not really some secondary violence.
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Are we equating political terrorism and crime now? The former is a security issue, the latter a social one.
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On December 21 2015 04:00 Nyxisto wrote:
Are we equating political terrorism and crime now? The former is a security issue, the latter a social one.
There's clearly a link. Most terrorists in France were known for delinquency and were 2 nd generation french coming from maghrebin immigration.
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I'd still be careful. Those things are true for millions of French people, the number of potential terrorists is probably in the hundreds. Just because someone is a criminal or even an extremist doesn't mean that they're potential mass murderers, it's poison for any debate.
Violence, criminality and extremism occur together but they're not at all the same things. You can't just make a giant smorgasbord and discuss everything at once.
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On December 21 2015 03:38 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2015 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2015 02:52 Nyxisto wrote:On December 21 2015 02:34 Yuljan wrote:
The thing is you use poverty and unemployment to explain why muslims are overrepresented in crime in all European countries but the thing is they are overrepresented no matter the circumstances. Poverty is not the explanation. A backward 1000 year old culture combined with the fact that they dont seem to put any importance in education and you have our wonderful societies. The cultural explanation fails to account for the fact that crime rates in many Muslim majority countries are way lower than in almost any developed Western nation. If anything it's the tension between majority and minority groups and not inherent beliefs of the specific group, which isn't surprising given the harsh punishments that almost any criminal faces in the Muslim world combined with their authoritarian governments and law & order politics. Crime rates among immigrants may be higher because there is no trust in state authorities among such groups, and that is a failure of society as a whole, and a big part of the blame should be directed towards the people who are in charge of those failed institutions, which for the most parts are not the immigrant communities. You have to check out the laws in those countries, which you say, but then summarily dismiss. And, whether western EU immigrants there have inflated crime rates. IMO you are projecting what you want to be the problem (Whites, white institutions) onto thin facts that are contradicted by evidence. In the American experience it is not as you state that marginalized minority groups turn to crime (Jews, Indians, Chinese, Koreans all laugh at such an assertion). It is even so throughout the world (Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia, Egyptians in mid-African countries, Beglians and others in Southern African countries). The problem is not having a minority in the country, out that it is not being accommodated, those are both disproven hypothesis around the world. Its a factor within high-crime groups ( that probably varies from group to group) that causes systemic economic failure and high criminality. Jews, Indians, Chinese, Koreans, all have tight social link, structured group, important communities, that give many services to migrants coming from such ethinicity. Look at the US history : the groups that distinguish themselves with high delinquency are/were more prone to discrimination, have more trouble acceeding to specific places, are less educated, do not have tight communities. What's in common between the italian, the porto ricans, the black or the scott community in the US (various wave that had high delinquency) ? Yes, there is a specific culture that arise that indeed share various caracteristics - a certain idea of virility, the legitimation of specific deviances, troubling familly ties - but those are usually a response to a situation and not core values shared by all those communities in their home countries.
I really don't know how you reconcile these sentiments. The Jews and Asians had it, several times worse than any group currently immigrating to America. Even now Jews face the highest % of hate crime of any minority group. The difference is, in fact the communities that emphasize social cohesion, 2 parent households, and education. And there really is no evidence for your sentiment that the failure of groups who don't do that is a response to a situation, rather than the poor translation of the sentiments from home countries into liberal society. Just because under an authoritarian, pseudo-socialist police state, your community is more or less docile, doesn't mean there isn't a cultural problem in translating that into a place where individual responsibility and tolerance are emphasized. Basically, the only way your theory works is in the sense that the West is too tolerant and does not execute petty criminals. But that, in no way, is an argument in your favor.
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On December 21 2015 05:50 Nyxisto wrote:
I'd still be careful. Those things are true for millions of French people, the number of potential terrorists is probably in the hundreds. Just because someone is a criminal or even an extremist doesn't mean that they're potential mass murderers, it's poison for any debate.
Violence, criminality and extremism occur together but they're not at all the same things. You can't just make a giant smorgasbord and discuss everything at once.
They're not the same thing, but the career that leads to terrorism pass by delinquency, small or organized. It's the exact same for delinquency, it is true for a very small portion of a population.
On December 21 2015 08:27 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2015 03:38 WhiteDog wrote:On December 21 2015 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2015 02:52 Nyxisto wrote:On December 21 2015 02:34 Yuljan wrote:
The thing is you use poverty and unemployment to explain why muslims are overrepresented in crime in all European countries but the thing is they are overrepresented no matter the circumstances. Poverty is not the explanation. A backward 1000 year old culture combined with the fact that they dont seem to put any importance in education and you have our wonderful societies. The cultural explanation fails to account for the fact that crime rates in many Muslim majority countries are way lower than in almost any developed Western nation. If anything it's the tension between majority and minority groups and not inherent beliefs of the specific group, which isn't surprising given the harsh punishments that almost any criminal faces in the Muslim world combined with their authoritarian governments and law & order politics. Crime rates among immigrants may be higher because there is no trust in state authorities among such groups, and that is a failure of society as a whole, and a big part of the blame should be directed towards the people who are in charge of those failed institutions, which for the most parts are not the immigrant communities. You have to check out the laws in those countries, which you say, but then summarily dismiss. And, whether western EU immigrants there have inflated crime rates. IMO you are projecting what you want to be the problem (Whites, white institutions) onto thin facts that are contradicted by evidence. In the American experience it is not as you state that marginalized minority groups turn to crime (Jews, Indians, Chinese, Koreans all laugh at such an assertion). It is even so throughout the world (Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia, Egyptians in mid-African countries, Beglians and others in Southern African countries). The problem is not having a minority in the country, out that it is not being accommodated, those are both disproven hypothesis around the world. Its a factor within high-crime groups ( that probably varies from group to group) that causes systemic economic failure and high criminality. Jews, Indians, Chinese, Koreans, all have tight social link, structured group, important communities, that give many services to migrants coming from such ethinicity. Look at the US history : the groups that distinguish themselves with high delinquency are/were more prone to discrimination, have more trouble acceeding to specific places, are less educated, do not have tight communities. What's in common between the italian, the porto ricans, the black or the scott community in the US (various wave that had high delinquency) ? Yes, there is a specific culture that arise that indeed share various caracteristics - a certain idea of virility, the legitimation of specific deviances, troubling familly ties - but those are usually a response to a situation and not core values shared by all those communities in their home countries. I really don't know how you reconcile these sentiments. The Jews and Asians had it, several times worse than any group currently immigrating to America. Even now Jews face the highest % of hate crime of any minority group. The difference is, in fact the communities that emphasize social cohesion, 2 parent households, and education. And there really is no evidence for your sentiment that the failure of groups who don't do that is a response to a situation, rather than the poor translation of the sentiments from home countries into liberal society. Just because under an authoritarian, pseudo-socialist police state, your community is more or less docile, doesn't mean there isn't a cultural problem in translating that into a place where individual responsibility and tolerance are emphasized. Basically, the only way your theory works is in the sense that the West is too tolerant and does not execute petty criminals. But that, in no way, is an argument in your favor.
I don't understand your point at all. I've never talked about tolerance or anything, just that the asian population possess communities : there are ways for an asian boy to integrate and be regulated outside of the public forces. It was not the case for many migrant wave - the italian were not as tightly connected, divided amongst village and such. Same for the black population that is split spatially, economically and socially. Those kind of situation - weakening of social link and social regulation, absence of ways to integrate, etc. - are usually at the source of delinquency in our societies.
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I just sifted through a study about mixed marriages between Muslims and non-Muslims in Western Europe by Sarah Carol.
Intermarriage is very rare even in the second generation of immigrants and it's mostly Muslim men who marry women from the new home country. (It is assumed that men can pass on their religion to the next generations and are therefore not lost for the community.) Compared to nationality or ethnicity, religion is a higher stumbling block for integration (or at least intermarriage, which is a major factor in it).
Apparently, religiosity/religiousness is major factor prohibiting intermarriage. This is a worrying trend. We really don't want to have communities neatly separated living in one country. It's a recipe for disaster. Actually, that's what the former colonial powers are criticized for a lot, creating countries with divided populations and different interests.
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Our countries were formed back when catholics and protestants were constantly fighting and tensions lasted for centuries longer.
Yes, its nothing nice, but acting like this is something new or surprising is just not right.
Btw: Europe/the West started to become "modern" europe when it basically said fuck you Religion. Our culture is not christian, our culture is based on the enlightenment. For some reason Islam never had a big reformation/enlightenment and thats why it is still backwards and dangerous.
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EPT
