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On December 23 2015 20:16 Velr wrote:
Our countries were formed back when catholics and protestants were constantly fighting and tensions lasted for centuries longer.
Is that supposed to be reassuring? It was quite the struggle. The Thirty Years' War left the Holy Roman Empire devastated. Until this day "The Swedes are coming!" is a saying ingrained in German collective memory for times of desperation.
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On December 23 2015 20:16 Velr wrote:
Our countries were formed back when catholics and protestants were constantly fighting and tensions lasted for centuries longer.
Yes, its nothing nice, but acting like this is something new or surprising is just not right.
Btw: Europe/the West started to become "modern" europe when it basically said fuck you Religion. Our culture is not christian, our culture is based on the enlightenment. For some reason Islam never had a big reformation/enlightenment and thats why it is still backwards and dangerous.
And the enlightment has nothing to do with christianity at all ? Plenty of christian were revolutionaries. Our culture is not unidimensional, and christianity is certain one of its many dimension - I might even argue that the maghrebin culture is also part of modern europe.
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On December 23 2015 21:19 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 20:16 Velr wrote:
Our countries were formed back when catholics and protestants were constantly fighting and tensions lasted for centuries longer.
Yes, its nothing nice, but acting like this is something new or surprising is just not right.
Btw: Europe/the West started to become "modern" europe when it basically said fuck you Religion. Our culture is not christian, our culture is based on the enlightenment. For some reason Islam never had a big reformation/enlightenment and thats why it is still backwards and dangerous. And the enlightment has nothing to do with christianity at all ? Plenty of christian were revolutionaries. Our culture is not unidimensional, and christianity is certain one of its many dimension - I might even argue that the maghrebin culture is also part of modern europe.
Some call Averroes (aka Ibn Rushd) the "founding father of secular thought in Western Europe" and he was a Muslim.
Rational thought transcends religions.
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That's the thing. Modern European thought was founded by rationalism/enlightenment. Sure, we got Christian roots, but we live by the worthy of the enlightenment.
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We still have tons of completely fucked and backwater people even in the western countries.
In fact, the best reason to limit migration is to make sure it doesn't fuel xenophobia and extreme right wing so it gets mainstream and our countries get fucked up by our own white trash.
Every asylum seeker absorbed is one more person that's going to vote nationalist that would have stayed home otherwise. And with the iron grip corporate interests already have on politics, if right wing populists politicians can talk even more about safety, crime, security, terrorism, etc etc the less room there is to talk about restructuring the economy to be ready for the changes our society will be forced to go through. Let's not even get started on things like equality.
US is the prime example. There the poorer the person, the more that person votes for laws that favour the rich. Why? Because politicians just manage to make the political debate about completely different issues, like abortion or gun control or Mexicans.
Politicians in western Europe are just extremely jealous. US is an example where you can have an open society with free speech but with more control than authoritarian countries.
I myself get sick physically when people talk about 'our Christian-Jewish tradition' when people want to contrast our liberal values with Saudi Arabia or orthodox Muslim minorities.
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On December 24 2015 03:35 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 21:19 WhiteDog wrote:On December 23 2015 20:16 Velr wrote:
Our countries were formed back when catholics and protestants were constantly fighting and tensions lasted for centuries longer.
Yes, its nothing nice, but acting like this is something new or surprising is just not right.
Btw: Europe/the West started to become "modern" europe when it basically said fuck you Religion. Our culture is not christian, our culture is based on the enlightenment. For some reason Islam never had a big reformation/enlightenment and thats why it is still backwards and dangerous. And the enlightment has nothing to do with christianity at all ? Plenty of christian were revolutionaries. Our culture is not unidimensional, and christianity is certain one of its many dimension - I might even argue that the maghrebin culture is also part of modern europe. Some call Averroes (aka Ibn Rushd) the "founding father of secular thought in Western Europe" and he was a Muslim. Rational thought transcends religions.
And Weber would assure you that rationality - as it expressed itself in the enlightment and afterwards - is specific to europe, and has an affinity with protestantism... That it has now gained its autonomy in regard to religion, does not mean it has no ties at all with christianity (as Hirschman would maybe argue) or protestantism (as Weber would argue).
This idea that "rationality" - which is pretty empty as it is, we should discuss what we put in there - is universal is one of the few reason the world is fucked up as it is. Different history leads to different cultures, traditions, values and institutions, and we should not impose - like we did already - our own values and our own reasonning on others nor should we deny the right for some to defend what they feel is part of their history - especially now when globalization is forcing everyone to be a good german or a good chinese.
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I don't buy this "evil global capitalism / rationalism is turning eveybody into those guys". You aren't forced to be a good German, but if you want to run a modern economy and all the benefits it brings you'll need to accept that they're not compatible with every kind of ideology out there.
The alternative is some kind of absolute relativism where flogging apostates in Saudi Arabia is totally cool because that's just their opinion. I don't think that is getting us anywhere. Also there really aren't local conflicts any more. If Erdogan bombs Kurds the conflict is being fought out in German and French streets as well. Indifference really isn't that much of an option.
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The alternative is some kind of absolute relativism where flogging apostates in Saudi Arabia is totally cool because that's just their opinion.
Here are your arguments : caricature.
I don't buy this "evil global capitalism / rationalism is turning eveybody into those guys".
That's what is happening. Buying it or not. How many minutes in France, Spain or Greece does the media or any politicians talk about the "german model" or discuss about how china is a powerhouse ? This global competition is also a unification of the earth around the same value : discipline, productivity, growth and consumption.
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It's actually far from a caricature. At the moment there's a huge revival of defending irrational and questionable policies solely on the ground of "sovereignty". Just look at how the new polish government is trying to establish some kind of Russian farce-democracy. Is this seriously going to be good for the Polish people?
A government and a state is not only supposed to spoon-feed their citizens what they want to hear but also to provide checks and balances. Is rejecting the "German model" a good thing just because it's German?
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On December 24 2015 09:11 Nyxisto wrote:
It's actually far from a caricature. At the moment there's a huge revival of defending irrational and questionable policies solely on the ground of "sovereignty". Just look at how the new polish government is trying to establish some kind of Russian farce-democracy. Is this seriously going to be good for the Polish people?
A government and a state is not only supposed to spoon-feed their citizens what they want to hear but also to provide checks and balances. Is rejecting the "German model" a good thing just because it's German?
It's nothing but a caricature. You're basically discarding every discussion on sovereignty by linking it to saudi arabia... Really ? So there's only europe - the right, the light, the future - or saudi arabia (or Russia). And it's not caricature ?
I don't care that the model is german, chinese or indian for that matter : there is no reason for an economy, a country, its institutions, to change and micmic what is more "economically efficient" in another country, because this rationality - in finality (the finality to produce more) - is not necessarily what we all strive for. It's the people's right to democratically decide wheither their goal is to produce more, or do something else, and not some technocratic structure or some rules. And yes, there are other moral choice than capital accumulation.
But at the core, you (and all the pro european out there) prefer discipline over democracy, which is why you abhorre things like sovereignty, cultural relativism or any referendum : what you want above all is conformism in unity (or unity in conformism I don't know).
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Problem is that the corporate world has a monopoly on globalization and a changed dynamic modern world.
You get blacklash. It then turns against all the change we are having. For old people, the world is changing too fast. They don't even care anymore if the change is good or bad. They just want it to stop.
So we get the worst of both. We only get the changes that really bring profit to big corporate. And we get all the backwater policies to try to gratify the voter.
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Human rights and women's rights advocates are criticizing the Polish government — and raising concerns about the country's future — after the new ruling party moved to change the nation's system of checks and balances.
The conservative Law and Justice party, which came into power in November, controls both houses of Parliament and also holds the presidency. The party is known as nationalist, pro-Catholic, anti-immigrant and skeptical of European unity. It promotes greater economic support for the poor.
The bill that's raising eyebrows — and concerns — affects Poland's Constitutional Tribunal, which steps in to determine whether contested laws violate the Polish Constitution.
Members of the tribunal are appointed by the Parliament, the Associated Press explains, and many current members were selected by a centrist party.
Source
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the new ruling party moved to change the nation's system of checks and balances what does that even mean?; or are they just protesting to protest against something they feel they can't control?.
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On December 24 2015 16:23 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +the new ruling party moved to change the nation's system of checks and balances what does that even mean?; or are they just protesting to protest against something they feel they can't control?.
The government refused to appoint the constitutional judges and is systematically replacing any bureaucrat not adhering to party line.
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On December 24 2015 16:34 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 16:23 xM(Z wrote:the new ruling party moved to change the nation's system of checks and balances what does that even mean?; or are they just protesting to protest against something they feel they can't control?. The government refused to appoint the constitutional judges and is systematically replacing any bureaucrat not adhering to party line.
No, the president refused to swear in several judges who were improperly nominated. Also, if I were you, I would not rely on German media with regards to this case. I've read several articles from German mainstream press and they were all very biased, for reasons I've mentioned earlier in the thread.
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I'm far from supporting PiS but I'm trying to avoid taking a side because it's really hard to take seriously people who say that the democracy is somehow endangered in Poland and that Kaczyński is literally worse than Putin. I also find it ironic that Martin Schulz is expressing his concerns about the situation in my country while he represents an organisation consistently criticised for being undemocratic.
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On December 24 2015 19:53 Sent. wrote:
I'm far from supporting PiS but I'm trying to avoid taking a side because it's really hard to take seriously people who say that the democracy is somehow endangered in Poland and that Kaczyński is literally worse than Putin. I also find it ironic that Martin Schulz is expressing his concerns about the situation in my country while he represents an organisation consistently criticised for being undemocratic.
Not to mention the fact that Germany/EU bullied several countries into changing their governments (or making referendums until they were please with the results when it comes to the Treaty of Lisbon)...
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On December 24 2015 19:53 Sent. wrote:
I also find it ironic that Martin Schulz is expressing his concerns about the situation in my country while he represents an organisation consistently criticised for being undemocratic.
So what exactly is the EU parliament undemocratic criticism? I have not heard much of this alleged 'consistent critique' you talk about, care to elaborate?
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On December 24 2015 16:34 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 16:23 xM(Z wrote:the new ruling party moved to change the nation's system of checks and balances what does that even mean?; or are they just protesting to protest against something they feel they can't control?. The government refused to appoint the constitutional judges and is systematically replacing any bureaucrat not adhering to party line.
but in that context:...women's rights advocates are criticizing the Polish government where's the connection?. have they figured out that adding women's rights in there, somehow validates their point more?(i mean, right off the bat it stinks of neo-bullshit).
anyway, (maybe)it was just a bad article.
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EPT
