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On December 13 2015 18:48 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 10:42 GoTuNk! wrote:On December 13 2015 02:28 WhiteDog wrote:On December 13 2015 02:21 Faust852 wrote:On December 12 2015 22:41 xM(Z wrote:On December 12 2015 22:09 Faust852 wrote:On December 12 2015 21:56 xM(Z wrote:On December 12 2015 21:04 Faust852 wrote: well at least we have cheap cool stuff and we don't live like Cold-War USSR. that has nothing to do with globalization but with capitalism + slavery. wherever there are slaves, there are cost reductions to be exploited. i don't get why (the)cheapest should be a target for anything anyway. give people more money, done. Well, I'm kinda glad I can eat banana in mid december, or drink coffee in the morning. I don't know how you'd do without coffee but I'd feel terrible  I'd also miss having stupid argument on the internet with random stranger. well, since you see your whole existence as a product of globalization, the best is to remain a random stranger to you. Well, tell me how much you don't rely on globalization and open market. Sure, you are actually writing stuff on a computer assembled in China, with a processor made in USA and a graphic card made in Taiwan. You are wearing clothes coming from Bengladesh and Thailand while eating pork from Netherlands with milk from Poland. You are writing stuff on the internet, which come from everywhere all at once. You are eating fruit coming from south america and spain, because gl getting banana or olive oil in Romania in mid december. At least 90% of the product you consume comes from another country, and that's good because you can't ask for a country to offer all the good possible while keeping them at reasonable cost. That's why globalization is the best thing ever. The only issue is the lack of rules, standard and rules which lead to corporation making billion by selling Polo at 50€ while it cost 30c to make in Bengladesh. That is the issue that need to be tackled on, not some retarded nationalism that would only lead to aweful living standard like cold war USSR or North Korea. Cold war USSR had astonishing good growth result, and many famous economists believed back then that it would necessarily pass the US as the first GDP. The reason was that labor is pretty cheap in goulag (and numbers pretty good when manipulated). But just saying, it was not a complete economic fiasco, it assured full employment and a very good growth - the main problem was that it was plagued by crisis of offer (which are less frequent but more dangerous than the crisis of under employment of the production capabilities that we suffer in our capitalists societies). Your hability to ignore reality is mind baffling. How about the 30 million people slaugthered by the government? PD; Continous technological improvement is a direct result of globalization. It's called the free flow of information, goods and capital. How on earth would south american countries do anything if they couldn't buy computer chips abroad. Or learn how to build a damn power plant. Your inhability to read is quite a feat. I never said the USSR was better. Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 09:47 Acrofales wrote:On December 13 2015 05:32 WhiteDog wrote:On December 13 2015 02:56 Acrofales wrote:On December 13 2015 01:58 WhiteDog wrote:On December 13 2015 01:56 RvB wrote:A lot of the reduction in poverty in the last years was in China. With an export led economy I don't see how you can make the argument that the reduction in poverty that globalisation has a small/no role. Though technology also obviously has a big role. On December 13 2015 01:41 Simberto wrote: That last argument is bad. The retirement age rising could either mean what you are saying, or that we just get older on average. While in 1950, someone who was retiring at 65 might have another 5 years or so to live on average, nowadays it is more along the lines of 10-20+ years or so. A lot of people don't realise how expensive even 1 year of retirement really is. Especially with these low interest rates it's getting unbearably expensive. Because China is an exemple of a globalized country to you ? It is its state, the action of the state, and not the opening of borders, that is at the core of China's success. Even the corruption is a barrier in China. If you want to seek the archetype globalized country, again, look at africa : just a quick search and I see that China's imports as part of GDP is half that of the ivory coast or congo for exemple. Most notably, China's imports as % of GDP has been declining recently, as it entered into the fray of developped countries. Just saying, there is a reason as to why Gaza is more globalized (in % of GDP) than Israel. Your beautiful and happy vision of the globalization is the vision of the dominant, happy few that profit (for a moment, only until another country find a flaw and eat you alive, which is what china is doing right now) from what the poor should actually call a dependancy on international trade. Look at data here. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.IMP.GNFS.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2014 wbapi_data_value wbapi_data_value-last&sort=desc China is an example of a globalized economy par excellence. That they hardly import has nothing to do with it at all (it's also not true, they import VAST quantities of commodities, mainly to fuel their cheap factories from which they subsequently export shit all over the world). China's resurgent economy may be planned and the internal market protected, but that doesn't mean they are not an exponent of the globalized economy: the very fact that half of the stuff in your house says "made in china" on it is a clear sign to the contrary. Your idea that production is returning to Europe (which I don't see happening at all, except for highly specialized technological production) is also not a counterexample: if conditions are profitable for production in Europe, countries will take their production there. Just as they moved it to Asia in the first place. The very fact that they are capable of moving their production wherever they like is one of the best examples of globalization you could have given. It is funny that you completly passed by most of my argument, most notably that trading in developped countries is usually less than in poor countries, an thus that an increase globalization is more ofté than not a state of dependancy. There is huge difference between importing what you need but can't produce yourself, and importing things that you can produce but do not due to various imbalance. If globalization is the openess to countries towards production made elsewhere, then we can measure it through the ratio of exports and imports as % of GDP, and according to this, the most globalized countries are poorer and the globalization is the result of a forced process more akin to modern colonialism than to the research of global economic efficiency. As for relocalization, I don't have any english sources, but in french, if you can read, I suggest reading some of El Mouhoud Mouhoub's work, economist and specialist of the question. On December 13 2015 04:08 Nyxisto wrote:On December 13 2015 02:39 WhiteDog wrote:On December 13 2015 02:37 Nyxisto wrote:On December 13 2015 02:28 WhiteDog wrote:On December 13 2015 02:21 Faust852 wrote:On December 12 2015 22:41 xM(Z wrote:On December 12 2015 22:09 Faust852 wrote:[quote] Well, I'm kinda glad I can eat banana in mid december, or drink coffee in the morning. I don't know how you'd do without coffee but I'd feel terrible  I'd also miss having stupid argument on the internet with random stranger. well, since you see your whole existence as a product of globalization, the best is to remain a random stranger to you. Well, tell me how much you don't rely on globalization and open market. Sure, you are actually writing stuff on a computer assembled in China, with a processor made in USA and a graphic card made in Taiwan. You are wearing clothes coming from Bengladesh and Thailand while eating pork from Netherlands with milk from Poland. You are writing stuff on the internet, which come from everywhere all at once. You are eating fruit coming from south america and spain, because gl getting banana or olive oil in Romania in mid december. At least 90% of the product you consume comes from another country, and that's good because you can't ask for a country to offer all the good possible while keeping them at reasonable cost. That's why globalization is the best thing ever. The only issue is the lack of rules, standard and rules which lead to corporation making billion by selling Polo at 50€ while it cost 30c to make in Bengladesh. That is the issue that need to be tackled on, not some retarded nationalism that would only lead to aweful living standard like cold war USSR or North Korea. Cold war USSR had astonishing good growth result, and many famous economists believed back then that it would necessarily pass the US as the first GDP. The reason was that labor is pretty cheap in goulag (and numbers pretty good when manipulated). But just saying, it was not a complete economic fiasco, it assured full employment and a very good growth - the main problem was that it was plagued by crisis of offer (which are less frequent but more dangerous than the crisis of under employment of the production capabilities that we suffer in our capitalists societies). A page ago you criticsed people for looking at stupid GDP numbers and now you're defending a government that achieved growth by using people as firewood and having everybody who didn't live in Moscow starve It's exactly what I said, the USSR was very much like the globalization, an economic "success" from a gdp perspective, that created a few crisis of under production (of offer = starving people to death) and that used modern slaves in goulag. I was not, at all, saying the USSR was great. But the USSR was also heavily nationalized and lacked in all the things those types of closed up economies always lack. Bad consumer products, falling farther and farther technological behind as time goes on, corruption getting bigger, little checks and balances and so on. It's maybe a valid strategy for a country that goes from having no economy to establishing one, but as soon as you're halfway okay it seems like almost any nation profits more from free trade than it does from protectionism. All those countries growing under these state dominated economies also have young populations and completely different demographic situations. And in the context of Europe there is basically no country which would fall in the first category. If your point is that globalization is beneficial for developped countries from a pure economic perspective, I agree - but there are no rules that sayd that it will always be, nor that it beneficial for every citizens and every class in developped countries : slavery was very beneficial for white rich and even for some slaves to a certain extent... So yeah, it is a topic we can discuss democratically, it is à ambivalent process, and not the perfect process not up to any debate like some suggested jere. Ah, I never said it was a perfect process. I guess I can describe it in three theses. Thesis number one: globalization is intricately linked with technological progess and therefore unstoppable. It is a consequence of the technology that makes transport of both goods and information increasingly fast and cheap. Now you can complain that the true cost of transport is hidden in the externalities, and that we should include them in the actual cost of transport, but even taking the externalities into account, transportation is increasingly cheap, fast, and reliable. Where international trade used to rely on perilous caravan routes, we now have railway lines and trucks doing those same routes in about 1/20th of the time, at virtually no risk. Whereas intercontinental trade relied on extremely hazardous ship journeys (or equally hazardous caravans), modern freight ships transport 5 times the cargo in about 1/10th of the time, and due to engineering works like the Suez and Panama canal can skip the most dangerous parts of the route. And I haven't even talked about flight routes and the internet, trivializing people transport and information sharing. Thesis number two: globalization speeds up technological evolution. The very fact that people can travel and mix (increasingly throughout the 20th century) and ideas can travel instantly around the world (21st century) is one of the main causes for technological speedup. While scientists historically have been one of the few groups of people to travel and correspond internationally (the others being traders and royalty), their ability to do so with increasing ease and at decreasing costs has led to new ideas spreading at unprecedented speeds. The internet is the culmination of this process. Given that science and engineering are mostly an incremental process, this means that the faster an idea spreads the quicker someone else can incorporate it into their new idea. Finally, thesis number three: globalization has an overall positive effect on the world (and not just developed nations). If we were a little bit better at wealth distribution, hunger would have been eradicated, as would the death toll from some of the world's most treatable diseases. However, as it is, hunger will still be eradicated in the near future, and while some diseases are gaining resistance to antibiotics and will cause all manner of resurging problems later on in this century if we don't figure something out, the basic forms are increasingly easier to deal with in increasingly remote places. The agricultural revolution of the 20th century is still very much ongoing, with modern agricultural techniques revolutionizing the way crops are produced in developing nations. Obviously globalization has plenty of downsides. Whether you point to the spread of fundamentalists, some of the problems with specific policies aimed at furthering globalization for its own sake (such as a number of illadvised EU policies), or modern slavery in sweatshops in Bangladesh, there are plenty of problems. However, specifically in reference to the latter: the reason these people work in modern sweatshops is because it is STILL preferrable to the alternative, which is abject squalor. And don't take my word for the decrease in world poverty. Here it is in pretty graphs: http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/world-poverty/Now as I said before: many of the positive effects are not necessarily due to globalization, but due to the way increased globalization and technological advancement are intricately linked, decoupling a market from the globalized economy will also bar it from many of the advances available, and ultimately slow down the overall speed of this advancement (if enough people throw up enough walls). And this will have overall negative effects on the world's population. I gave you specific argument that you seem unable to respond to. I gave you even a possible way to measure and define globalization, and you continue with your "thesis". You're right, it look like a good "economic" discussion : if the globalization is good and irreversible, then it's good and irreversible, that's the basis of your arguments. I specifically pointed out that the poorest countries are more open to international trade than developped, and you brushed that like it was of no concern. How did globalization speed up the technological process ? Explain me how please ? Technology today is not going faster than during bretton woods - when capital flows were restricted. In fact, and quite the opposite, today's world is more defined by a deep desire to protect innovation and research, through pattern and various strategies. You make it seem like globalization is the end of private property of some sort, it is just the increase of global trade, permitted by the lessen of national barriers and of transports costs (effectively paid for by firms). What happen is that some countries effectively buy the capital, and thus still own the property, creating a state of dependancy, far from development. You continue to refuse talking about reality, and bring out some numbers, like the poverty, like it has anything to do with globalization. I already showed you how wrong you were : poverty actually lessen in countries that have a strong national state, to direct financial flux towards what actually help the people and to defend what needs to be defended from the globalization : it is not the opening of frontiers that permitted poverty to be reduced, but rather the hability of some state to invest in health, education and to preserve an economic sector stable and diverse enough to fill the belly of its population. The most globalized countries, who don't possess such important national institutions, are unable to defend from the negative effect of the globalization, and are robbed by other country, of their national ressource, of their life labor, of their potentiality. China, you say is an exemple of globalized country, it is in fact an exemple of a strong national government, and of the possibility for such institution to use the globalization as it wants and grow out of it oftentime at the expense of the weakers countries who are unable to do so.
We're clearly talking past each other, so on globalization and economy I will let some economics professors do my talking. http://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/how-has-globalization-benefited-poor
Q: For a consumer in the developed world, what actions are actually effective in trying to bring the benefits of globalization to some of the people who are getting left out? Many of us, as we benefit from cheaper goods made in China or Vietnam, or goods that have been made by child labor, worry about what we are doing. But perhaps the best way to help the poor in poor countries is for them to have the employment opportunities that arise when there is demand in rich countries for products that they produce.
However, globalization generates winners and losers. For those people who are made worse off, those are real costs, and we have to help them deal with those costs. Even in a country like the United States, it’s pretty tricky to compensate the losers from this process, and it’s even trickier in the developing countries, where government assistance is not as readily available. There are a lot of benefits for all of us that can be had by promoting globalization, but government policy needs to make sure that those left behind share in these gains.
Of course there are going to be people who get shafted by as broad a process as globalization. But by and large it is positive. Governmenst that are better at counteracting the negative effects and better distribute the increased wealth are going to have more people benefit.
Your example of China is spot on: it's strong government is capable of using globalization to benefit the people.
Academic pay wall, but the abstract says it all: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X14001065
We find a significant negative correlation between globalization and poverty, robust to several econometric specifications ... We motivate and test the instruments in several ways. In particular information flows and more liberal trade restrictions robustly correlate with lower absolute poverty.
Similar conclusión, no paywall: Reduces inequality: https://aquila5.iseg.ulisboa.pt/aquila/getFile.do?method=getFile&fileId=227099
There are, however a great many papers on the subject and they have quite a lot of contradictory conclusions. However, the main survey papers I looked at, however papers concluding negative results seem to ignore local government impact:
This article examines how globalization, government ideology, and their interaction have shaped income distribution in 59 developing countries from 1975 to 2005. Using pooled time-series data analysis, the results show that globalization, measured by trade flows and foreign direct investment, has significantly expanded income inequality in developing countries. However, countries with leftist government parties and chief executives have experienced significantly smaller income gaps and even moderated the income inequality from increasing world market integration. The results in this article suggest that the traditional role of government ideology for income redistribution, drawn from the experiences of advanced countries, is applicable to the developing world as well. Rather than being diminished by the integration of international markets, the influence of government ideology will continue to play a key role in shaping the outcomes of globalization. http://sites.cgu.edu/hae/files/2014/01/Journal-of-Politics.pdf
As for increases in scientific and technological development, the data is far clearer and you're flat-out wrong. I'll just link one of many results, but scholar.google.com will happily help you on your way with the rest: http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/globalization-and-science-speeded-virtuous-cycle
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What crack me up is that you quote some secondary papers that show some secondary correlations (or a completly useless and irrelevant quote coming from some economist) thinking that what I actually said comes out of thin air and has no real backbone. Everything I said came from economic studies I've read. I'll do the work and actually quote you work that matter.
On local government and development, from Human Development Report 2010 (p. 64 and onward) - http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/reports/270/hdr_2010_en_complete_reprint.pdf :
The spread of ideas and the relatively low costs of delivering basic services explain widespread advances in health and education. So why are there still such large differences across countries? And why have so many countries with similar starting points traversed such different development paths? Many answers are country specific—we explore both successful and unsuccessful cases in box 3.3 and box 3.6 later in the chapter—but there are also some general patterns. Countries with the fastest progress can be split broadly into two groups—those that did well in economic growth and those that did well in human development. Few countries did well in both (among the top 10 movers, Indonesia and South Korea were the only countries to make it into the top 10 in both the income and nonincome dimensions of the HDI; see table 2.2 in chapter 2). So, there are different pathways to development, some emphasizing the expansion of material living standards, and others, health and education.
Different country trajectories Some development strategies have concentrated on expanding wealth, seeing possible adverse consequences for other aspects of human development as necessary “social costs.” But more inclusive development strategies have greatly improved material conditions without neglecting other dimensions. Country trajectories can be characterized in a typology of success and failure in human development with four groups: countries with high growth and high human development (“virtuous” development processes), those with neither high growth nor high human development (“vicious” processes), and those successful in pursuing one objective but not both. This characterization echoes Jean Drèze and Amartya Sen’s distinction among “growth-mediated security” (growth with road-based social provisioning), “support-led security” (where direct social action took precedence over growth) and “unaimed opulence” (where growth was the priority). Most virtuous development processes involve managing distributive conflict; building adequate state and business capacity, with the state having sufficient countervailing power to limit abuse of market power by powerful capitalist groups and resolving sociopolitical contests in favour of broad-based provisioning. Countries on this path include most of the East Asian successes and the more stable Latin American countries such as Brazil. The vicious processes group includes some countries in Sub-Saharan Africa, such as Côte d’Ivoire, and some countries with higher initial human development, such as the Russian Federation. [...]
Clearly, an amazing variety of institutions are compatible with human progress. We can try to understand how they organize relationships between markets and states. Markets—understood as a form of organizing production that involves extensive private ownership—may be an indispensable component of any economic system capable of supporting the sustained dynamism necessary for transformative changes in most dimensions of human development. But markets do not bring progress in other dimensions of human development, and the evidence suggests that markets are necessary but certainly not enough. These observations hark back to Karl Polanyi’s exposition more than 60 years ago of the myth of the self-regulating market—the idea that market relationships can exist in a political and institutional vacuum. Markets can be very bad at providing public goods, such as security, stability, health and education. For example, firms focused on producing cheap labour-intensive goods or exploiting natural resources may not want a more educated workforce. And if there is an abundant pool of labour to draw on, firms may care little about worker health. We see this today in lax occupational safety standards in many developing countries. A shift from the institutions of reciprocity that hold sway in traditional societies to market relations can weaken the human and social ties that bind communities. Furthermore, without complementary societal and state action, markets are particularly weak in environmental protection. Poorly regulated markets can create the conditions for environmental degradation, even disaster. A recent example is the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010. Such leaks are common: over the past decade there was an average of three or four large oil spills a year, spewing more than 1.5 million barrels of oil. And recorded spills account for only about a tenth of petroleum waste that ends up in the ocean each year. In the Niger Delta endemic oil spills, waste dumping and gas flaring have destroyed ecologically sensitive wetlands, clogged waterways, killed wildlife and damaged the soil and air quality over the past 50 years—ruining the lives of people in the region.
As for innovation, yeah there is an increase in patterns... how is that really relevant ? Here are some work to give a little body to a simple analysis. Productivity growth from 1950 to today (to show that modern innovation is not superior to 1950's innovations) :
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Your paper is not about the relationship between globalization and poverty. Insofar as it mentions globalization at all and its influence on human development it mentions mostly positive effects. As the only hint of a negative effect, it mentions that globalization brings a higher risk, and that bigger governments are needed to deal with that. Something I don't disagree with at all.
As for the exerpt that you copied and particularly the bit you bolded: yes? This says nothing about globalization, it says something about good governance. Something that is absolutely necessary, I agree.
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On December 13 2015 22:24 Acrofales wrote: Your paper is not about the relationship between globalization and poverty. Insofar as it mentions globalization at all and its influence on human development it mentions mostly positive effects. As the only hint of a negative effect, it mentions that globalization brings a higher risk, and that bigger governments are needed to deal with that. Something I don't disagree with at all.
As for the exerpt that you copied and particularly the bit you bolded: yes? This says nothing about globalization, it says something about good governance. Something that is absolutely necessary, I agree. It is specifically saying that the "market" has almost no effect in itself and that it is the existence of institutions that permit a country to grow out of poverty.
For example, firms focused on producing cheap labour-intensive goods or exploiting natural resources may not want a more educated workforce. And if there is an abundant pool of labour to draw on, firms may care little about worker health. We see this today in lax occupational safety standards in many developing countries. A shift from the institutions of reciprocity that hold sway in traditional societies to market relations can weaken the human and social ties that bind communities. Furthermore, without complementary societal and state action, markets are particularly weak in environmental protection. Poorly regulated markets can create the conditions for environmental degradation, even disaster. A recent example is the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010. Such leaks are common: over the past decade there was an average of three or four large oil spills a year, spewing more than 1.5 million barrels of oil. And recorded spills account for only about a tenth of petroleum waste that ends up in the ocean each year. In the Niger Delta endemic oil spills, waste dumping and gas flaring have destroyed ecologically sensitive wetlands, clogged waterways, killed wildlife and damaged the soil and air quality over the past 50 years—ruining the lives of people in the region. I mean, it's not clear enough ? It's not the globalization - the removal of all barriers to trade - that permits development, but rather the existence of national institutions to control the behavior of capitalists groups, to permit the production of public goods and to give a legal frame to trading.
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On December 13 2015 22:46 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 22:24 Acrofales wrote: Your paper is not about the relationship between globalization and poverty. Insofar as it mentions globalization at all and its influence on human development it mentions mostly positive effects. As the only hint of a negative effect, it mentions that globalization brings a higher risk, and that bigger governments are needed to deal with that. Something I don't disagree with at all.
As for the exerpt that you copied and particularly the bit you bolded: yes? This says nothing about globalization, it says something about good governance. Something that is absolutely necessary, I agree. It is specifically saying that the "market" in itself has almost no effect in itself and that it is the existence of institutions that permit a country to grow out of poverty. Show nested quote +For example, firms focused on producing cheap labour-intensive goods or exploiting natural resources may not want a more educated workforce. And if there is an abundant pool of labour to draw on, firms may care little about worker health. We see this today in lax occupational safety standards in many developing countries. A shift from the institutions of reciprocity that hold sway in traditional societies to market relations can weaken the human and social ties that bind communities. Furthermore, without complementary societal and state action, markets are particularly weak in environmental protection. Poorly regulated markets can create the conditions for environmental degradation, even disaster. A recent example is the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010. Such leaks are common: over the past decade there was an average of three or four large oil spills a year, spewing more than 1.5 million barrels of oil. And recorded spills account for only about a tenth of petroleum waste that ends up in the ocean each year. In the Niger Delta endemic oil spills, waste dumping and gas flaring have destroyed ecologically sensitive wetlands, clogged waterways, killed wildlife and damaged the soil and air quality over the past 50 years—ruining the lives of people in the region. I mean, it's not clear enough ? It's not the globalization - the removal of all barriers to trade - that permits development, but rather the existence of national institutions to control the behavior of capitalists groups, to permit the production of public goods and to give a legal frame to trading. Why can't it be both? You need institutions, sure, but without competition there is very little reason to develop new technology ("If it is not broken, don't fix it"). China during the 15th century was way more technologically advanced and had huge ships exploring the African coasts even, but after that decided to isolate itself from the rest of the world, allowing the European warring states to gain a technological edge that they are still trying to catch up on.
During the warring period in China there was one region that developed itself into something that resembles a contemporary state (including a bureaucratic apparatus to make taxation more efficient), forcing the others to adopt similar forms of government too or perish. During Europe's warring period we developed new technology and institutions at a breakneck speed.
EDIT: I'd actually go as far as saying that war is a lot more important for technological progress than international trade, unless of course trade incorporates two or more companies from different countries trying to gain a foothold in the same market.
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On December 13 2015 23:03 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 22:46 WhiteDog wrote:On December 13 2015 22:24 Acrofales wrote: Your paper is not about the relationship between globalization and poverty. Insofar as it mentions globalization at all and its influence on human development it mentions mostly positive effects. As the only hint of a negative effect, it mentions that globalization brings a higher risk, and that bigger governments are needed to deal with that. Something I don't disagree with at all.
As for the exerpt that you copied and particularly the bit you bolded: yes? This says nothing about globalization, it says something about good governance. Something that is absolutely necessary, I agree. It is specifically saying that the "market" in itself has almost no effect in itself and that it is the existence of institutions that permit a country to grow out of poverty. For example, firms focused on producing cheap labour-intensive goods or exploiting natural resources may not want a more educated workforce. And if there is an abundant pool of labour to draw on, firms may care little about worker health. We see this today in lax occupational safety standards in many developing countries. A shift from the institutions of reciprocity that hold sway in traditional societies to market relations can weaken the human and social ties that bind communities. Furthermore, without complementary societal and state action, markets are particularly weak in environmental protection. Poorly regulated markets can create the conditions for environmental degradation, even disaster. A recent example is the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010. Such leaks are common: over the past decade there was an average of three or four large oil spills a year, spewing more than 1.5 million barrels of oil. And recorded spills account for only about a tenth of petroleum waste that ends up in the ocean each year. In the Niger Delta endemic oil spills, waste dumping and gas flaring have destroyed ecologically sensitive wetlands, clogged waterways, killed wildlife and damaged the soil and air quality over the past 50 years—ruining the lives of people in the region. I mean, it's not clear enough ? It's not the globalization - the removal of all barriers to trade - that permits development, but rather the existence of national institutions to control the behavior of capitalists groups, to permit the production of public goods and to give a legal frame to trading. Why can't it be both? You need institutions, sure, but without competition there is very little reason to develop new technology ("If it is not broken, don't fix it"). China during the 15th century was way more technologically advanced and had huge ships exploring the African coasts even, but after that decided to isolate itself from the rest of the world, allowing the European warring states to gain a technological edge that they are still trying to catch up on. During the warring period in China there was one region that developed itself into something that resembles a contemporary state (including a bureaucratic apparatus to make taxation more efficient), forcing the others to adopt similar forms of government too or perish. During Europe's warring period we developed new technology and institutions at a breakneck speed. EDIT: I'd actually go as far as saying that war is a lot more important for technological progress than international trade, unless of course trade incorporates two or more companies from different countries trying to gain a foothold in the same market. Because it is clearly implying that without institutions, capitalists group usually seek ressources and exploit weakness, a situation that does not profit the population. This has been made very clear, since in some countries where the state is too weak, the globalization has had bad effect on development - it's the history of the washington consensus... I agree with you about war btw.
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On December 13 2015 23:08 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 23:03 maartendq wrote:On December 13 2015 22:46 WhiteDog wrote:On December 13 2015 22:24 Acrofales wrote: Your paper is not about the relationship between globalization and poverty. Insofar as it mentions globalization at all and its influence on human development it mentions mostly positive effects. As the only hint of a negative effect, it mentions that globalization brings a higher risk, and that bigger governments are needed to deal with that. Something I don't disagree with at all.
As for the exerpt that you copied and particularly the bit you bolded: yes? This says nothing about globalization, it says something about good governance. Something that is absolutely necessary, I agree. It is specifically saying that the "market" in itself has almost no effect in itself and that it is the existence of institutions that permit a country to grow out of poverty. For example, firms focused on producing cheap labour-intensive goods or exploiting natural resources may not want a more educated workforce. And if there is an abundant pool of labour to draw on, firms may care little about worker health. We see this today in lax occupational safety standards in many developing countries. A shift from the institutions of reciprocity that hold sway in traditional societies to market relations can weaken the human and social ties that bind communities. Furthermore, without complementary societal and state action, markets are particularly weak in environmental protection. Poorly regulated markets can create the conditions for environmental degradation, even disaster. A recent example is the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010. Such leaks are common: over the past decade there was an average of three or four large oil spills a year, spewing more than 1.5 million barrels of oil. And recorded spills account for only about a tenth of petroleum waste that ends up in the ocean each year. In the Niger Delta endemic oil spills, waste dumping and gas flaring have destroyed ecologically sensitive wetlands, clogged waterways, killed wildlife and damaged the soil and air quality over the past 50 years—ruining the lives of people in the region. I mean, it's not clear enough ? It's not the globalization - the removal of all barriers to trade - that permits development, but rather the existence of national institutions to control the behavior of capitalists groups, to permit the production of public goods and to give a legal frame to trading. Why can't it be both? You need institutions, sure, but without competition there is very little reason to develop new technology ("If it is not broken, don't fix it"). China during the 15th century was way more technologically advanced and had huge ships exploring the African coasts even, but after that decided to isolate itself from the rest of the world, allowing the European warring states to gain a technological edge that they are still trying to catch up on. During the warring period in China there was one region that developed itself into something that resembles a contemporary state (including a bureaucratic apparatus to make taxation more efficient), forcing the others to adopt similar forms of government too or perish. During Europe's warring period we developed new technology and institutions at a breakneck speed. EDIT: I'd actually go as far as saying that war is a lot more important for technological progress than international trade, unless of course trade incorporates two or more companies from different countries trying to gain a foothold in the same market. Because it is clearly implying that without institutions, capitalists group usually seek ressources and exploit weakness, a situation that does not profit the population. This has been made very clear, since in some countries where the state is too weak, the globalization has had bad effect on development - it's the history of the washington consensus...
But with a state that is too strong, we end up with the same effect due to corruption, because its almost impossible to get a benevolent state when it has too much power. The goal then need to find a balance between a capitalistic paradise and an authoritarian state that has the benefit of the people in mind. When capitalism can't find cheaper way to compete with the concurrence, it looks toward innovation to take the lead
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On December 13 2015 23:08 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 23:03 maartendq wrote:On December 13 2015 22:46 WhiteDog wrote:On December 13 2015 22:24 Acrofales wrote: Your paper is not about the relationship between globalization and poverty. Insofar as it mentions globalization at all and its influence on human development it mentions mostly positive effects. As the only hint of a negative effect, it mentions that globalization brings a higher risk, and that bigger governments are needed to deal with that. Something I don't disagree with at all.
As for the exerpt that you copied and particularly the bit you bolded: yes? This says nothing about globalization, it says something about good governance. Something that is absolutely necessary, I agree. It is specifically saying that the "market" in itself has almost no effect in itself and that it is the existence of institutions that permit a country to grow out of poverty. For example, firms focused on producing cheap labour-intensive goods or exploiting natural resources may not want a more educated workforce. And if there is an abundant pool of labour to draw on, firms may care little about worker health. We see this today in lax occupational safety standards in many developing countries. A shift from the institutions of reciprocity that hold sway in traditional societies to market relations can weaken the human and social ties that bind communities. Furthermore, without complementary societal and state action, markets are particularly weak in environmental protection. Poorly regulated markets can create the conditions for environmental degradation, even disaster. A recent example is the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010. Such leaks are common: over the past decade there was an average of three or four large oil spills a year, spewing more than 1.5 million barrels of oil. And recorded spills account for only about a tenth of petroleum waste that ends up in the ocean each year. In the Niger Delta endemic oil spills, waste dumping and gas flaring have destroyed ecologically sensitive wetlands, clogged waterways, killed wildlife and damaged the soil and air quality over the past 50 years—ruining the lives of people in the region. I mean, it's not clear enough ? It's not the globalization - the removal of all barriers to trade - that permits development, but rather the existence of national institutions to control the behavior of capitalists groups, to permit the production of public goods and to give a legal frame to trading. Why can't it be both? You need institutions, sure, but without competition there is very little reason to develop new technology ("If it is not broken, don't fix it"). China during the 15th century was way more technologically advanced and had huge ships exploring the African coasts even, but after that decided to isolate itself from the rest of the world, allowing the European warring states to gain a technological edge that they are still trying to catch up on. During the warring period in China there was one region that developed itself into something that resembles a contemporary state (including a bureaucratic apparatus to make taxation more efficient), forcing the others to adopt similar forms of government too or perish. During Europe's warring period we developed new technology and institutions at a breakneck speed. EDIT: I'd actually go as far as saying that war is a lot more important for technological progress than international trade, unless of course trade incorporates two or more companies from different countries trying to gain a foothold in the same market. Because it is clearly implying that without institutions, capitalists group usually seek ressources and exploit weakness, a situation that does not profit the population. This has been made very clear, since in some countries where the state is too weak, the globalization has had bad effect on development - it's the history of the washington consensus... I agree with you about war btw. No. In those cases it has had a negative effect on equality. Just because rural communities scrounging a living off subsistence farming are not helped by globalization, doesn't mean they are hindered. People living on under a dollar a day and unable to take advantage of the potential opportunities will continue to be subsistence farmers without government aid. That others in the country see their lives improve and therefore inequality increases doesn't mean poverty increased.
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Acrofales,giving market forces free reign and globalisation is not the one and same thing. But one thing is clear and that is that strong effective and corruption free institutions will help far more than either. Afterall, using your example of subsistence farming, neither would provide particular benefit, but even a badly built road built by even a poor community will benefit them immensely.
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On December 12 2015 02:52 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2015 08:14 Sent. wrote: Slovakia has a left wing government and the new ruling party in Poland is not new or fascist. If you count the votes from our recent elections you can see that our society is still split 50-50 between liberals and conservatives. Your turbonazis won those elections only because they're united and liberals ruled for 10 years so people got "bored" with them. Maybe voters in the West and South are getting more radical but here it was just a normal shift of power.
Iirc UKIP had terrible results in British elections so its not like UK is changing its course drastically either Dude you should see the amount of propaganda the press spits out about those PIS fellas. It is quite embarassing tbh one could think they would be Adolf himself.
Adolf you say? Leader of those PiS fellas spoke few days ago about "genes of national treason" while in the meantime he is demolishing Constitutional Tribunal. So yeah, im not sure what you call propaganda is just propaganda.
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Yep, I also remember him earlier this year talking about how refugees bring in "alien diseases and microbes" lol. Could have been straight out of the NS "Jews carry flees" handbook.
Also the FN went down in the second round of the elections, so there is at least one happy news of the day.
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It's one of those parties that is no one's #2 choice. So it tends to be vulnerable to losing in second round elections.
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I'm so sad about FN. This shows how ridicolous left and right are in France: for years they believed in different values and all of a sudden they're best friends ever. They did everything against the FN - but the wave is growing.
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On December 14 2015 09:38 SoSexy wrote: They did everything against the FN - but the wave is growing.
Don't know if you chose that metaphor on purpose or by accident
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Actually no, but I remember people talking about that film (even though I didnt manage to watch it)
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On December 14 2015 09:14 Nyxisto wrote: Yep, I also remember him earlier this year talking about how refugees bring in "alien diseases and microbes" lol. Could have been straight out of the NS "Jews carry flees" handbook.
Also the FN went down in the second round of the elections, so there is at least one happy news of the day. Yes because defecating in parks doesn't bring in foreign diseases.
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On December 14 2015 11:36 nitram wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2015 09:14 Nyxisto wrote: Yep, I also remember him earlier this year talking about how refugees bring in "alien diseases and microbes" lol. Could have been straight out of the NS "Jews carry flees" handbook.
Also the FN went down in the second round of the elections, so there is at least one happy news of the day. Yes because defecating in parks doesn't bring in foreign diseases.
As long as you don't roll in it, I assume it doesn't.
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Why would defecating in parks be relevant? I'm mean, other than it being a great pastime.
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On December 14 2015 11:46 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2015 11:36 nitram wrote:On December 14 2015 09:14 Nyxisto wrote: Yep, I also remember him earlier this year talking about how refugees bring in "alien diseases and microbes" lol. Could have been straight out of the NS "Jews carry flees" handbook.
Also the FN went down in the second round of the elections, so there is at least one happy news of the day. Yes because defecating in parks doesn't bring in foreign diseases. As long as you don't roll in it, I assume it doesn't.
They can at least have the courtesy to pick up their own shit with a plastic bag instead of leaving it out in public.
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On December 14 2015 09:38 SoSexy wrote: I'm so sad about FN. This shows how ridicolous left and right are in France: for years they believed in different values and all of a sudden they're best friends ever. They did everything against the FN - but the wave is growing. Just to be clear -- you're sad that the FN did not win any regions?
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