EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 307
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
|
RvB
Netherlands6266 Posts
| ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 26 2015 05:07 RvB wrote: Can we stay on topic. Any discussion with Israel in it will just become a headache. You're right. I was just pointing out that the statement "its all the US's fault" when it comes to the middle east only works if you go back a single decade. That a good chunk of the western powers and Russia have had their hands in that section of the world, which is a contributing factor into why its such a hot mess today. On September 26 2015 05:07 DickMcFanny wrote: Okay, we caused the mess, you kept it up for the past fifty years. But who cares, the only victims thus far are brown people. And the rest of the world pretty soon. Unclear if that is sarcasm or not. | ||
|
DickMcFanny
Ireland1076 Posts
| ||
|
Narw
Poland884 Posts
On September 26 2015 04:30 Acrofales wrote: This is the type of ostrich thinking that makes the problem worse instead of finding a solution. Just because you say that it's a German problem and stick your head in the sand while the Germans sort it out, doesn't make that so. It is a European problem, because the vast majority of these asylum seekers are sitting on an island in Greece or Italy, or are in Serbia or Hungary. Those that have reached Germany are mostly not a problem anymore. Did you even read what i wrote or you just decided to come on your moral high horse to school me? Do you understand what this aproach that you so defend will do to my country in next years? We here had slight problem with other country (lets call it "Big Bear") telling us for 45 years what we can do and what we can't. Do you understand how public oppinion reacts to Germany telling us that we HAVE to accept "x number" of people? Do you understand that all this aproach did is basicly ensured my country will be ruled by right wing religious freaks for next parliament cadency. Elections next month. I'm sure that will help refugess situation in next years. Of course you have no idea, cause you know nothing about this part of Europe, yet again you try to school me. I'm very sorry for actual refugess, i have zero sympathy for people pretending to be ones (from what i've read German government assumes that 30% of people claiming to be Syrians are just pretending). This problem isn't here from 2 months, the war is happening for long time there, Italians and Greeks warned for long time they needed help, but Europe leadership just totally failed and now we are facing "emergency" solutions to problem that is a long term disease, not a sudden car crash. Stick head in the sand? You know there is frozen conflict next to my country borders? You know that Russia is nowadays unpredicable, what if it suddenly decides it's time to escalate Ukraine again? What we will do with eventual Ukrainians that need shelter (you know, people that are our actual neighbors and have cultural affinity)? Have you thought about any of those in your perfect world "Save em all" aproach? World dosn't spin only around refugess from Syria, we aren't all as rich as Western countries and we definitly have almost zero expieriance with accepting masses of culturally different people. We won't be able to just throw em into their already existing communities, we won't be able to calm em with big social benefits, we have our own problems which we need to solve first before we can even start giving others the "savior" behavior. We can and we will of course accept em here but its not a solution. 1,5m of Polish people left this country from 2002, this isn't some kind of paradise those guys are seeking, they will definitly not be happy that you throw em here after they been promised place in dream world of Western Europe. | ||
|
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
| ||
|
DickMcFanny
Ireland1076 Posts
| ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:29 Nyxisto wrote: All understandable fears, but Eastern Europe really needs to get over this "we're being kicked around by the East and West" trauma and use it as an excuse every time a political decision is made by the EU, which is a political Union that you guys decided to join voluntarily, knowingly that being a member of such a union means giving up part of your sovereignty, as did every other EU nation. People never agreed to completly let their sovereignty in the hand of the germanic european institutions I believe. French voted against europe in 2005 and we're still in the wagon. I don't agree with this picture of the poor and victim poland facing immigration while they don't have the wealth for it still. Poland is another clandestin passenger within the euro, they just agreed to profit from it and that's it. Aside from that, and especially from a political point of view, they prefer following the american big bro rather than participating in anything european. | ||
|
cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
| ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:55 cLutZ wrote: Germany only controls the EU because everyone else is addicted to thier money.. That's a false comment, if people were really addicted to their money, most of the southern europe would have fled already - Italy and Greece especially. The Greeks are the funniest - and maybe the most pathetic - in the sense that after all they suffered, they still refuse to envisage leaving the euro, too tightly bound to their belief that europe is more than an economic union created to provide cheap goods at consumption and recycle German's surplus. | ||
|
cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:57 WhiteDog wrote: That's a false comment, if people were really addicted to their money, most of the southern europe would have fled already - Italy and Greece especially. The Greeks are the funniest - and maybe the most pathetic - in the sense that after all they suffered, they still refuse to envisage leaving the euro, too tightly bound to their belief that europe is more than an economic union created to provide cheap goods at consumption and recycle German's surplus. What? The reason they haven't left is because if they leave they will lose the financial infusions from Germany. They also would lose stability in their currencies and goods not produced in Greece would probably skyrocket in prices. Leaving the EU (or simply running a reasonable government) is like ripping off a bandaid, or quitting cigarettes cold turkey for those countries. I know you are French and resent German control, and France is not addicted like these other countries. | ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:04 cLutZ wrote: What? The reason they haven't left is because if they leave they will lose the financial infusions from Germany. They also would lose stability in their currencies and goods not produced in Greece would probably skyrocket in prices. Leaving the EU (or simply running a reasonable government) is like ripping off a bandaid, or quitting cigarettes cold turkey for those countries. I know you are French and resent German control, and France is not addicted like these other countries. You don't understand that what you call "infusions" is in fact a leash that enslave Greece and force its economy into dependance - and the simple fact that the debt to gdp ratio gets higher after every "plan" is a proof of that. Losing the "financial infusions" is the solution to their problems. Your metaphore is a bad one, a good one would be drugs : the financial aids is like drugs, Greece is addicted to it, and the more it consume it the more it needs it. Stopping yourself from consuming it would indeed leads to a serious crisis - but it's also your only salvation. | ||
|
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:50 WhiteDog wrote: People never agreed to completly let their sovereignty in the hand of the germanic european institutions I believe. French voted against europe in 2005 and we're still in the wagon. No one demands "complete" sacrifice of sovereignty, but European problems like the refugee situation can only be solved if there is enough central organisation. You can't abolish all internal borders, which is a fundamental pillar of the EU and then act like they still exist when you try to solve problems. You can't have it both ways. Either you have free markets, free movement and so on and you have some common policies that are created through a European democratic process or you abolish the thing altogether. In case of the refugee situation it has to be said that the latter would not affect Germany like it would Italy, Greece Hungary or any other border nation. | ||
|
Narw
Poland884 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:29 Nyxisto wrote: All understandable fears, but Eastern Europe really needs to get over this "we're being kicked around by the East and West" trauma and use it as an excuse every time a political decision is made by the EU, which is a political Union that you guys decided to join voluntarily, knowingly that being a member of such a union means giving up part of your sovereignty, as did every other EU nation. Excuse everytime a political decision is made by EU... ? Did you actually READ anything i wrote there? I hope you will choke with those immigrants. Cause we for sure wont. In case of the refugee situation it has to be said that the latter would not affect Germany like it would Italy, Greece Hungary or any other border nation. You mean the Hungary that had no problem before German poiiticans started ensuring refugees that there is asylum for em, and then when Hungary coudl't handle the sudden influx of people wanting to move thru it your press and politicians started bashing em for not being able to handle it the way Germany would want it handled? | ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:08 Nyxisto wrote: No one demands "complete" sacrifice of sovereignty, but European problems like the refugee situation can only be solved if there is enough central organisation. You can't abolish all internal borders, which is a fundamental pillar of the EU and then act like they still exist when you try to solve problems. You can't have it both ways. Either you have free markets, free movement and so on and you have some common policies that are created through a European democratic process or you abolish the thing altogether. In case of the refugee situation it has to be said that the latter would not effect Germany like it would Italy, Greece Hungary or any other border nation. The problem is that there is a huge difference in the culture and also in the administration of those problems within europe (things that are completly hidden in the statistics that we see here and there). France or the UK are old immigration places, Germany has an history of migrations (from or to), etc. The europe is a composite of very different culture, history, and - more than anything - economic situations, and sadly the european institutions pass that like it's bullshit and irrational fears and decide to impose solutions (top to bottom) without any debate. That's the inherant flaws of a german europe. | ||
|
cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:07 WhiteDog wrote: You don't understand that what you call "infusions" is in fact a leash that enslave Greece and force its economy into dependance - and the simple fact that the debt to gdp ratio gets higher after every "plan" is a proof of that. Losing the "financial infusions" is the solution to their problems. Your metaphore is a bad one, a good one would be drugs : the financial aids is like drugs, Greece is addicted to it, and the more it consume it the more it needs it. Stopping yourself from consuming it would indeed leads to a serious crisis - but it's also your only salvation. How is "quitting cigarettes cold turkey" not the same analogy? | ||
|
Sent.
Poland9280 Posts
Article from Financial Times, written by our former finance minister. I think it explains well how we (Poles or Eastern Europeans) feel about the refugee problem. We want to help but it's easy to get frustrated when the EU is trying to impose mandatory quotas on us and Western politicians call us racists. | ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:37 cLutZ wrote: How is "quitting cigarettes cold turkey" not the same analogy? I was mostly responding to the "band aid". And to be fair, I was not aware of the meaning of cold turkey (now I am, thanks to you lol). | ||
|
Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:47 Sent. wrote: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/606bf3ec-5b07-11e5-9846-de406ccb37f2.html#axzz3mnQBioip Article from Financial Times, written by our former finance minister. I think it explains well how we (Poles or Eastern Europeans) feel about the refugee problem. We want to help but it's easy to get frustrated when the EU is trying to impose mandatory quotas on us and Western politicians call us racists. A couple of remarks/questions: I seem unable to read the article without a registration on the site. Could you maybe further summarize a few more key points? When you talk about Wester politicans calling you racists, could you give some examples? Because I have'nt heard anything like this from any relevant politican in Germany, and I doubt that french or british politicans would be much harsher. I don't want to call you out or anything, but I am genuinely curious and maybe I missed something. The only real critic I heard was against Viktor Orban, but I think most would agree that this dude is an asshole. Now, let me present a small defense of international quotas: If you look at the immigrations politics of the single europeans states in the past, most of them showed to be pretty awful. Germany did nothing useful or sensible, French didn't really either and the other european countries sans maybe sweden also didnt get anything done. When the single countries don't manage do be effective, a collective initiative seems to be a good idea and worth to try, especially because the immigration topic is a european topic due to open borders. Now, the most powerful political institution in Europe is the EU, where Germany has a huge influence/is the dominating force for several reasons. This is unfortunate and I really would love if this wasn't the case, but thats all we have to work with currently. I honestly just don't see a better strategy right now. Of course, I also would love when Germany could drop it's "holier-than-thou" attitude and contain the rise from german nationalist pride which is connected to this (especially considering Germany's failure in immigration politics in the past few years and the new reactionary law which gets implemented right now), but yeah, thats how it is. However, there are certain posters in this thread which make me believe that the underlying issue is just the general unwillingness to take in more refugees, regardless if that gets deceided by the EU, Germany or the own country. For this, there is now clear solution, except that those people recognize their moral obligations. | ||
|
Sent.
Poland9280 Posts
| ||
|
maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:07 WhiteDog wrote: You don't understand that what you call "infusions" is in fact a leash that enslave Greece and force its economy into dependance - and the simple fact that the debt to gdp ratio gets higher after every "plan" is a proof of that. Losing the "financial infusions" is the solution to their problems. Your metaphore is a bad one, a good one would be drugs : the financial aids is like drugs, Greece is addicted to it, and the more it consume it the more it needs it. Stopping yourself from consuming it would indeed leads to a serious crisis - but it's also your only salvation. Well, considering Greece's economy, I doubt it would be much better off if it were to be independent. Clutz is right in that Greece depends completely on European money infusions (it's not just Germany that's funding them, let's be real here). I think one of the reasons Greeks don't want to leave the EU is because they realise that if they were to leave, things would be much, much worse before they get better (if they ever do). Greece is a net exporter of anything that matters (food and energy, which will make devaluating the Drachma really painful) while it does not really export anything anyone wants. On top of that its public sector is a huge but complety unproductive - or rather, counterproductive - moneydump, its population aging fast and needs pensions, and most talented people most likely already working abroad. The population doesn't trust the government, which means that the latter will have significant problems levying effectively any kind of tax, the private sector can't compete in terms of wages with the public sector, which means everyone will prefer a public sector job, and Greece will have a hard time borrowing money on financial markets because no-one trusts them anymore. Greece's problems really go way beyond finance. If it were only a financial problem Greece would already have done the sensible thing and cut down their public work force to a sustainable level, cut their wages to make them competitive with the private sector and reformed how the former worked so it can function on the level of a country like Germany instead of a developing third world country. It would also already have amended its constitution so the shipping magnates have to pay taxes for once in their lives, and would have undone most of the horridly opaque tax exemtions people are entitled to. None of these things got done because Greece's political parties and public sector contain too many people who have an interest in keeping things the way they are. If democratic government is a type of government that is essentially about balancing the various interests of different groups in society in a way that benefits most people living in said society, then in Greece its government (and public sector) is hijacked by people who have an interest in keeping the country the way it is. | ||
| ||
