EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 309
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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whatisthisasheep
624 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 28 2015 05:53 Nyxisto wrote: I don't think the left was any more nationalist than they are now, Syriza literally entered a coalition with a far-right wing party and many European left parties seem to be willing to do the same because they categorically resent European institutions. Horseshoe theory has become pretty relevant again, Antisemitism is a good indicator how the political left has adopted conspiracy and 'step in the back' myths of the political right. Another thing is homophobia. In France 'La Manif pour tous' has lots of left-wing elements and members but is spreading homophobic messenges. Essentially gay people have been thrown into the group of "urban elites" and apparently they need to be opposed now. The left is not in a very healthy state. Essentially everything intellectual has been thrown out and the only common factor is a fight against 'the establishment' including the media, minorities or whoever is suspected of belonging to that group. It seems like you are just caricaturing the left to support the establishment.  This ideas that the left is against minorities, anti europe, antisemitic and homophobic is pretty funny when you actually look at things with an objective point of view - tell me which party actually correspond to your vision ? And aren't you basically saying that the hard left in europe are nazis ? lol It's the classical red - brown caricature that all liberal use every now and then to decridibilize non liberal movements. The reality is the exact opposite... the left refuse to take any side : they criticize europe but never take any stance that will put them in direct opposite with its institutions (see the Partie De Gauche in France or Syriza in Greece) and actually still defend the european institutions, they usually support all minority movements (unlike what you say, Syriza is pro migration, and had the desire to legalize most illegal migrants in Greece, the Partie de Gauche is the same in France) whatever the underlying ideologies of those movements (that are mostly liberals), etc. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the question im not clear on is, whether this group of people which clearly exists, is the left | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 28 2015 22:55 oneofthem wrote: anti-europe seems to fit though, and the kind of populism underlying that sentiment revolves around national identites. the question im not clear on is, whether this group of people which clearly exists, is the left I'm only talking about parties and figures that define themselves as being in the left - partie de gauche in France, Syriza, podemos, etc. They're not anti europe at all, this is a pretty ignorant argument. It's the opposite, the dominant current right now is for an european citizenship, against all national citizenship (and also for an european state...) : see E. Balibar's (an important leftist figure in France) tribune about the refugee crisis, where he praise Merkel and ask for the creation of an european citizenship for the refugee, or anything coming from Varoufakis. No leftist party defend a strategy of rupture towards european institutions, only rightist movements does. It's actually the biggest problem none of their political solutions can exist within the current europe. There's a huge contradiction here. I'm not talking about people. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 29 2015 00:58 Nyxisto wrote: Sure there are pro European people among the left, but it's not so clear. Syriza had a pretty big anti-European/communist wing that's now largely been ousted after the election though. Corbyn definitely seems to be sceptical about the EU and if I remember correctly he said that he'd at least tolerate a brexit, and Podemos definitely isn't clearly pro EU as they want to withdraw from the Lisbon treaty and several free trade treaties. It's untrue, syriza was not anti european at all, they never argued for a grexit - never. Criticizing the current european institutions does not make you an anti european. You are completly twisting their views, they're not liberals so they disagree with the current face of europe (the lisbon treaty), but they are all pro europe. None of them actually argue for the return of powerful nations and the end of the european union (the few parties that argue for such things are all labelled in the right, the national front, pediga, the UKIP, etc.), most of them are for a bigger european state, for a bigger integration within europe, to give more power to the european parlement, etc. Which is, to me, a paradox and the reason of their weakness. Ever heard podemos arguing for the end of europe ? Or the end of the euro ? They've always presented theirselves as people that would change the europe, not destroy it. Even after Syriza's complete failure this summer they still refused to even think about the end of the euro and argued that Spain, due to its size, will be able to negotiate with the european institutions, unlike the small Greece (Hollande argued for the same thing back in 2012 lolz). Corbyn is sceptical about the EU, but to be fair he is such a new player in the game that nobody knows his stance on anything - and the labor party is much more pro europe than the tory. By the way, a greek poster could propose us a better view than me, but to my understanding, Syriza basically won the left against the communist / anarchist parties : they are not "communist". | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10138 Posts
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34372548 Pro-independence parties in Spain's Catalonia region have won an absolute majority in regional elections. The main separatist alliance and a smaller nationalist party won 72 seats in the 135-seat regional parliament. However, the pro-independence parties fell just short of getting 50% of the vote, winning 1.9 million out of 4 million ballots cast. The separatists say the victory gives them a clear mandate to form an independent Catalan state. Spain's central government in Madrid has pledged to challenge any unilateral moves towards independence in court. Media is funny. Part of that alliance is CUP, which has been explicit the whole time about Mas (current Catalonia's president) not being invested again something that Junts pel si is trying hard to push forward and do not want to negotiate. Reason is because Mas was the one who ruled when the cuts came in, and had led the community on a high deficit, and corruption scandals. Pablo Casado, spokesman for Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's PP party, argued that the separatists had "failed" by not securing a majority of votes. Also, first declarations from the CUP about the unilateral independence declaration since they didn't manage to get majority catalonians to vote for yes to independence: because the plebiscite was not won. http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/09/28/inenglish/1443428458_884457.html If they don't manage to get CUP in, they won't have the majority. CUP already said that unilateral independence is not an option, and neither is Mas. I wonder what will happen the following weeks. @Whitedog: On Podemos i find it highly ironic, since they always speak about catalonia as a nation, and they play that game well enough as they want catalonia to have a binding referendum. But Europe in my opinion a much bigger field and it's already occupied and entrenched. | ||
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gsgfdf
Greece2 Posts
On September 29 2015 02:03 WhiteDog wrote: By the way, a greek poster could propose us a better view than me, but to my understanding, Syriza basically won the left against the communist / anarchist parties : they are not "communist". Syriza is a big coalition that, until the September elections, included groups like old communists, lefts, centrists and everything in between. The coalition is even in the party name, Sy. (=coalition) Riz. (=radical) A. (=left). Now the party is probably more centre-left oriented than anything else. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 29 2015 05:36 gsgfdf wrote: Syriza is a big coalition that, until the September elections, included groups like old communists, lefts, centrists and everything in between. The coalition is even in the party name, Sy. (=coalition) Riz. (=radical) A. (=left). Now the party is probably more centre-left oriented than anything else. Isn't there also a leftist party / communist party that refused to ally with Syriza ? | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
CATALUUUUUUUNYAAAAAAAAAA YEAH | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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gsgfdf
Greece2 Posts
On September 29 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote: Isn't there also a leftist party / communist party that refused to ally with Syriza ? You mean the Greek Communist party? There was never a chance for them to unite though and as far as I know there is no other party with more than 2% left. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10853 Posts
On September 29 2015 06:28 Faust852 wrote: Independant Catalunya would be the biggest fail since Kosovo. I can't even imagine it surviving as long as Kosovo did. that comparison is retarded. catalonya has industry. catalonya isn't corrupt to the bone. catalonya isn't war torn. It could work. If its a good idea is another question but comparing it to the failure that kosova was destined to be from the get go, is retarded. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On September 29 2015 07:15 Velr wrote: that comparison is retarded. catalonya has industry. catalonya isn't corrupt to the bone. catalonya isn't war torn. It could work. If its a good idea is another question but comparing it to the failure that kosova was destined to be from the get go, is retarded. I just said it will be a failure like Kosovo was, not a comparison with Kosovo on how thing will be handle. And Kosovo had a better chance of achieving something, when Catalonia will do a head drop to 3rd world country in less than a year. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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