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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On September 25 2015 19:26 SoSexy wrote: Lolling so hard at the white knights of the 'take them all in'. The short-sightness is amazing It's pretty much exactly the opposite, actually. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10853 Posts
Europe ~500 Mio. Inhabitants. ~5 Mio. Syrian refugees on their way to europe (at most?). 100 europeans to 1 fucking refugee... Oh noes, how should we ever handle this!!!111. If our states could just come around and find a solution to split these refugees up in a fair way, there would be absolutely no issue. But as long as some countries are downright ridiculous in one way like Poland (2000, only christians), GB (NONE, at least ahead of the public opinion swing) or are going after the other extreme like Germany we won't arrive anywhere. Going on as we do now, it will just set the Balkans on fire. Therefore i doubt to close our borders is a realistic way to go on about this. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:09 Velr wrote: Guys.. Europe ~500 Mio. Inhabitants. ~5 Mio. Syrian refugees on their way to europe (at most?). 100 europeans to 1 fucking refugee... Oh noes, how should we ever handle this!!!111. If our states could just come around and find a solution to split these refugees up in a fair way, there would be absolutely no issue. But as long as some countries are downright ridiculous in one way like Poland (2000, only christians), GB (NONE, at least ahead of the public opinion swing) or are going after the other extreme like Germany we won't arrive anywhere. Going on as we do now, it will just set the Balkans on fire. Therefore i doubt to close our borders is a realistic way to go on about this. that's extremely delusional. it's never <xxxxx> to 1 because they'll always stick together. 5mil people can make their own damn country and the way things are going now i don't see anyone stopping them. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10853 Posts
Thats our own fault, also called failed Immigration policy. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:33 Velr wrote: Fullstop. WE stick them together in the cheapest neighbourhoods creating getthos. Thats our fault, not theirs. In Sofia they are in the central part of the city. I invite you for a tour. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10853 Posts
Parallelcommunities (also known as Migration getthos or, if you failed totally, "no go zones") are existing becaues of our failed policies and nothing else. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:33 Velr wrote: Fullstop. WE stick them together in the cheapest neighbourhoods creating getthos. Thats our own fault, also called failed Immigration policy. that's not an excuse nor a reason. you just said something to say something. - first admit that there are bad refugees and good refugees and then acknowledge the fact that they need to be selected (the 2000 christians demand/request doesn't look that bad now. the selection criteria is kinda stupid(based on weird assumptions probably) but it is a step in the right direction)). - you can now stick the good ones in the ghettos without worries. - the bad ones would need to be integrated by force, individually and under some dictatorial leadership(that's if you want to have any chance of integrating them). now, that's not humane based on western standards and that's what fucks you. you do not have the mental strength to do harm in the short run for you to have well-being in the long run. .. so you just say stuff for the sake of saying stuff while doing nothing. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:56 nitram wrote: It doesn't matter where you put them, they will all stick together and when you have too many of them, they will never integrate, because they won't want to. Not with that quitters attitude. Having lived around several families of refugees, that isn't' the case. On September 25 2015 21:58 xM(Z wrote: we have forced residence here for immigrants. they're given a home, in a specific location and they're supposed to remain there/around there. That doesn't prohibit the government from making sure they are not loading one community up with refugees and creating a de facto ghetto. That is just smart city planning. | ||
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:59 Plansix wrote: Not with that quitters attitude. Having lived around several families of refugees, that isn't' the case. Ive lived around many punjabi immigrants and middle eastern immigrants and that is the case. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:09 Velr wrote: Guys.. Europe ~500 Mio. Inhabitants. ~5 Mio. Syrian refugees on their way to europe (at most?). 100 europeans to 1 fucking refugee... Oh noes, how should we ever handle this!!!111. If our states could just come around and find a solution to split these refugees up in a fair way, there would be absolutely no issue. But as long as some countries are downright ridiculous in one way like Poland (2000, only christians), GB (NONE, at least ahead of the public opinion swing) or are going after the other extreme like Germany we won't arrive anywhere. Going on as we do now, it will just set the Balkans on fire. Therefore i doubt to close our borders is a realistic way to go on about this. The amount of uninformed, flawed logic in this post could warrant an essay. 1. It's not 100 to 1, but if it was, that's a huge number given we're speaking of a relatively short period of time, and an uncontrolled influx. And there could be more, there will be more. As it is, majority of the immigrants are not Syrians, even counting those who arent, but claim they are. The second or third biggest group of people that entered Hungary this summer was from Cosovo, and there are over a dozen countries from which people are fleeing. Syrians are just the largest group, and the most covered story. 2. Where i live, Romania, the government and the people dont want to take in refugees, but newsflash, nobody wants to come here anyways. 2 syrians mistakenly passed the border cuz they thought it's hungary and began to cry, and went back to Serbia. Not to say Hungary or Croatia are that much better, they're flooded cuz they're in the way towards Germany and the Scandinavian countries. The Eastern-european countries are experiencing a shortage of workforce, cuz their fucking people left for Germany and Denmark etc, so u might say, well great refugees fill the gap, except they dont, cuz a) they also want to go to those palces b) the job-market is utterly unprepared to take in qualified or unqualified workers who dont speak the language c) even if the number of people willing to work goes up, that doesnt mean the number of jobs goes up d) social tensions etc, we in Eastern or Central Europe do suck at integrating people. It s not a thing to brag about, but it's true, let's not try to pretend it's otherwise. 3. Even if every single country would come together, and agree to take in 100% of the refugees who entered legally and illegally (and there s less than 0% for that to happen anyways), you dont solve shit, cuz you cant chain them to the fucking lamppost, they dont want to live in Romania or Hungary, they want Germany, Sweeden etc. 4. Even if you could "force" this rule onto the countries, and onto the refugees (and again, 0% chance), you still dont solve shit, cuz be it 500.000 or 5.000.000 you figure out how to settle, than it's basically greenlight for every shitty country around Europe (and there's no shortage of that) that if your country experiences war/famine/poverty, Europe is the way to go. Which is dumb, cuz no way that's sustainable for us. Sure, you could argue that the West is responsible for many of the shitty situations, but fortunately/unfortunately we re not obligated to pay for the sins of our countries or their allies that happened in the past or is happening now. i could go on for long.... Sure, closing the border is a bad option for several reasons, but sure as hell beats the alternative that the neo-liberal, extreme leftists are spouting. Which is basically, do nothing, and speak about humanitarian values and morals. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On September 25 2015 22:00 nitram wrote: Ive lived around many punjabi immigrants and middle eastern immigrants and that is the case. I think you missed the point, when it's a small group or a few individuals, integration is easy, cuz they're willing to change their lifestyle, and the people around them are willing to accept. When u're talking about groups of thousands or tens of thousands entering at once (and i mean the same day), that came together, you might find it more difficult. There's nothing inherently bad about immigrants, but it's just a very human thing to do, to stick with your tribe, and to be afraid of change. | ||
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Klowney
Sweden277 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:09 Velr wrote: Guys.. Europe ~500 Mio. Inhabitants. ~5 Mio. Syrian refugees on their way to europe (at most?). 100 europeans to 1 fucking refugee... Oh noes, how should we ever handle this!!!111. If our states could just come around and find a solution to split these refugees up in a fair way, there would be absolutely no issue. But as long as some countries are downright ridiculous in one way like Poland (2000, only christians), GB (NONE, at least ahead of the public opinion swing) or are going after the other extreme like Germany we won't arrive anywhere. Going on as we do now, it will just set the Balkans on fire. Therefore i doubt to close our borders is a realistic way to go on about this. For the price to help 5 million refugees in Europe, you could help over 50 million refugees Middle East/Africa, what would you rather do? | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29904 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:09 Velr wrote: Guys.. Europe ~500 Mio. Inhabitants. ~5 Mio. Syrian refugees on their way to europe (at most?). 100 europeans to 1 fucking refugee... Oh noes, how should we ever handle this!!!111. If our states could just come around and find a solution to split these refugees up in a fair way, there would be absolutely no issue. But as long as some countries are downright ridiculous in one way like Poland (2000, only christians), GB (NONE, at least ahead of the public opinion swing) or are going after the other extreme like Germany we won't arrive anywhere. Going on as we do now, it will just set the Balkans on fire. Therefore i doubt to close our borders is a realistic way to go on about this. That's a lot for Poland as most people (countless surveys taken, NO for immigrants is 90%+) doesn't want immigrants in their country. Since we have democracy that's how it works. Also our government will change this year since we have elections and I hope they will change their mind and stand united with Hungary, Czech and Slovakia. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10853 Posts
On September 25 2015 21:52 xM(Z wrote: that's not an excuse nor a reason. you just said something to say something. - first admit that there are bad refugees and good refugees and then acknowledge the fact that they need to be selected (the 2000 christians demand/request doesn't look that bad now. the selection criteria is kinda stupid(based on weird assumptions probably) but it is a step in the right direction)). - you can now stick the good ones in the ghettos without worries. - the bad ones would need to be integrated by force, individually and under some dictatorial leadership(that's if you want to have any chance of integrating them). now, that's not humane based on western standards and that's what fucks you. you do not have the mental strength to do harm in the short run for you to have well-being in the long run. .. so you just say stuff for the sake of saying stuff while doing nothing. People like you are the reason, we are in this mess. Yes, some migrants are more willing to Assimilate/Fit in than others BUT putting tons of migrants (or any other Group low on the economic ladder) together in one place is allways a bad thing to do. How you "force" someone to Assimilate is up to discussion, there are many, many ways to do this. One important way, especially for muslims, would imho be to have (only) "in europe studied" Imams instead of importing ones from the places these people came from in the first place.... +Yes, the large majority of them doesn't want to stay in Romania/Greece/Hungary or on some Islandcamp in Italy... And i don't blame them and also don't think the poor EU Countries should have to take in as many as the rich ones. But there are plenty of places that are just or nearly as attractive as Germany (Scandinavia, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, France, GB, Ireland, Italy, Belgium…) and others that are also more than ok, I honestly don’t know enough about other eastern countries but i don't see a big reason that speaks for example against Poland. No, distributing them fairly won’t be easy. But just keeping all of them in Italy/Greece/Hungary for sure won’t make it any easier. Once they are assigned to a country, you could also begin to send them back there if they leave again. The situation how it is atm is just basically a worst case Scenario and that needs to be solved asap. For the price to help 5 million refugees in Europe, you could help over 50 million refugees Middle East/Africa, what would you rather do? Help them both? And if it would be a question of Money to help them "there", we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. Money isn't the issue. We also could stop selling them our cheap food or at least stop subsidising our own farmers (good luck trying that...) so their agriculture could actually be self sustaining and farmers could make a living that goes over bare survival... And btw. 2000 for Poland isn't alot, no matter how you look at it, no matter how much you don't want them. 2000 in a Country of damn near 40 MILLION People is under 0.05%. Its a damn fart and you wouldn't even notice it. Its not even enough to Count as a gesture. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
i am not in any mess, you are in a mess and can't deal with it. but just to state the obvious - the ghettos are a temporary holing place ... obviously. having only good people there speeds up the whole process. Edit: also, do not ever use that ratio argument. it fails on all accounts. i won't go into details as to why(it's kindergarten stuff) but i'll say that sometimes, it only takes one individual to fuck up a whole country. Edit: ok, ok, just one reason: you're basically claiming that those 2000 can be lost in a sea of 40mil as if they were nothing, as if they never existed. no culture, no identity, no nothing; just gone... | ||
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