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On July 10 2015 00:01 zatic wrote:Now for something else than Greece, I am very happy that Germany is finally taking steps in the right direction of recognizing the Genocide of the Herero and Nama in former South West Aftrica: http://www.thelocal.de/20150708/a-century-on-germany-speaks-of-genocide-in-namibiaWhile this is great, it really should have been the president, instead of the president of parliament, to give this statement. But it is definitely progress in a process that to me is moving at an unacceptably slow pace.
I agree. Zeit Online also published a good article on it yesterday (in German)
The main problem with that chapter of German history is the fact that, relative to the total population, very few are actually aware of said genocide and there's barely any news coverage related to it (since it's been 100 years now). Therefore, politicians don't feel the urge to recognize the genocide and to apologize to the descendants of the victims.
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How the heck does Greece think raising taxes will actually raise money? Why is that even a thought process?
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Yeah like, which government ever made more money with taxes ?
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Ones that don't already have high tax rates and rampant tax evasion. Also ones that don't have an economy already in a depression. If they are going to do austerity, it kind of has to be on the other side of the ledger to actually reduce the deficit.
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On July 10 2015 02:40 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 02:15 Sbrubbles wrote:On July 10 2015 02:04 Faust852 wrote:Looks like the austerity mesure in Spain are finally showing :
After years of dire predictions, Spain is now expected to be the developed world’s biggest job creator this year and the next, while its economy will grow faster than most in 2015.
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says that Spain will see a 2.9% rise in the number of available jobs this year, and 2.8% the next.
After years of job destruction due to the protracted economic crisis that began in 2008, Spain now seems set to bring its soaring unemployment below the 20% mark by the end of next year. The OECD's Employment Outlook 2015 report is positing a figure of 19.7% in the fourth quarter of 2016, although the average annual rate for next year will still be above 20%, a threshold that was reached in 2010, then amply surpassed. src Success! It really speaks for itself just how bad things are in Europe when something like this is considered 'Great News'. EDIT: And even the entire premise of the article is faulty, the reason for Spains improvement is due to France easing up on austerity earlier this year when they decided to start deficit politics once again by taking on more loans to boost investments in France which naturally lead to higher imports which Spain always have been one of the main exporters. It's through France increased demand of import from Spain that has lead to less unemployment,
France is actually the economic heart of eastern europe. Growth in France always lead to increase in demand of goods and services from other european countries since we like to spend dem euros and our economic structure is really close to Italy / Spain and others (it's lead by lending).
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On July 10 2015 02:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 02:40 Integra wrote:On July 10 2015 02:15 Sbrubbles wrote:On July 10 2015 02:04 Faust852 wrote:Looks like the austerity mesure in Spain are finally showing :
After years of dire predictions, Spain is now expected to be the developed world’s biggest job creator this year and the next, while its economy will grow faster than most in 2015.
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says that Spain will see a 2.9% rise in the number of available jobs this year, and 2.8% the next.
After years of job destruction due to the protracted economic crisis that began in 2008, Spain now seems set to bring its soaring unemployment below the 20% mark by the end of next year. The OECD's Employment Outlook 2015 report is positing a figure of 19.7% in the fourth quarter of 2016, although the average annual rate for next year will still be above 20%, a threshold that was reached in 2010, then amply surpassed. src Success! It really speaks for itself just how bad things are in Europe when something like this is considered 'Great News'. WOOOOOOOO things are not getting worse at an alarming pace! 10 more years and we should be out of this!
because 3.1% expected growth is "not getting worse".
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On July 10 2015 03:08 cLutZ wrote:
Ones that don't already have high tax rates and rampant tax evasion. Also ones that don't have an economy already in a depression. If they are going to do austerity, it kind of has to be on the other side of the ledger to actually reduce the deficit.
The "other side of the ledger" has worked so well for them so far, can't believe they'd want to change that.
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On July 10 2015 02:22 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 02:15 Sbrubbles wrote:On July 10 2015 02:04 Faust852 wrote:Looks like the austerity mesure in Spain are finally showing :
After years of dire predictions, Spain is now expected to be the developed world’s biggest job creator this year and the next, while its economy will grow faster than most in 2015.
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says that Spain will see a 2.9% rise in the number of available jobs this year, and 2.8% the next.
After years of job destruction due to the protracted economic crisis that began in 2008, Spain now seems set to bring its soaring unemployment below the 20% mark by the end of next year. The OECD's Employment Outlook 2015 report is positing a figure of 19.7% in the fourth quarter of 2016, although the average annual rate for next year will still be above 20%, a threshold that was reached in 2010, then amply surpassed. src Success! Yeah ! After five years they will go below 20 % employment according to OECD's predictions (that are always right! right ?)... success ?!?
It was necessary like a good, cold douche.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Something I have heard no one mention yet.
So what if Tsipras and the eurozone reach an agreement. Will there be another referendum?
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On July 10 2015 02:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 02:40 Integra wrote:On July 10 2015 02:15 Sbrubbles wrote:On July 10 2015 02:04 Faust852 wrote:Looks like the austerity mesure in Spain are finally showing :
After years of dire predictions, Spain is now expected to be the developed world’s biggest job creator this year and the next, while its economy will grow faster than most in 2015.
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says that Spain will see a 2.9% rise in the number of available jobs this year, and 2.8% the next.
After years of job destruction due to the protracted economic crisis that began in 2008, Spain now seems set to bring its soaring unemployment below the 20% mark by the end of next year. The OECD's Employment Outlook 2015 report is positing a figure of 19.7% in the fourth quarter of 2016, although the average annual rate for next year will still be above 20%, a threshold that was reached in 2010, then amply surpassed. src Success! It really speaks for itself just how bad things are in Europe when something like this is considered 'Great News'. WOOOOOOOO things are not getting worse at an alarming pace! 10 more years and we should be out of this!
Arguably better than going off the deep end again when the next financial crisis hits. That all the countries that have gone through structural changes have come out of the 2008/2009 crisis pretty well while the rest is limping along every time the stock market has a hiccup doesn't really fit into the narrative.
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On July 10 2015 03:26 Alcathous wrote:
Something I have heard no one mention yet.
So what if Tsipras and the eurozone reach an agreement. Will there be another referendum?
That would be extremely unlikely, don't you think? Having already done the referendum, the Tsipras government have both the wiggle room and the legitimacy to say "this new deal is too much like the previous one, we won't take it" or "this new deal is different from the previous one, we'll take it". No reason they would throw this flexibility away.
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On July 10 2015 03:15 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 03:08 cLutZ wrote:
Ones that don't already have high tax rates and rampant tax evasion. Also ones that don't have an economy already in a depression. If they are going to do austerity, it kind of has to be on the other side of the ledger to actually reduce the deficit. The "other side of the ledger" has worked so well for them so far, can't believe they'd want to change that.
They haven't done much on that side though. Government spending is still over 50% of GDP and their austerity since 2008 has relied overwhelmingly on counterproductive tax hikes. Even the IMF says so:http://m.theage.com.au/world/greece-must-now-cut-spending-says-imf-20111214-1ouxe.html
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On July 10 2015 03:30 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 03:26 Alcathous wrote:
Something I have heard no one mention yet.
So what if Tsipras and the eurozone reach an agreement. Will there be another referendum? That would be extremely unlikely, don't you think? Having already done the referendum, the Tsipras government have both the wiggle room and the legitimacy to say "this new deal is too much like the previous one, we won't take it" or "this new deal is different from the previous one, we'll take it". No reason they would throw this flexibility away.
How so? This makes all kind of assumptions that are hard to uphold.
Would be easy to point out they selectively go for a referendum when they judge it to be in their advantage. The fact that people don't talk about it seems to indicate they assume Syriza to be as hypocritical as anyone in power. The same attitude that interpreted the referendum as a betrayal may now falsely assume there won't be any.
I still think Syriza, as a radical left party, has completely different logic when it comes to politics than the mainstream. If they are consistent in their ideas, they will write out a second referendum. If they don't, then in their worldview, they admit they shouldn't have written out one the first time.
They already did a referendum and the people said 'no'. How can you now assume he people support a 'yes'? The deal is likely to be similar.
If we are going to assume anything, so no referendum would be needed, is that the people will vote 'no' once more..
Say Tsipras has a deal half his own party has problems with. How can he now just force it down the throats of the voters?
It is not like Europe is going to offer him, and all Greeks, the magical deal they want. It is still going to a bitter deal.
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On July 10 2015 03:32 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 03:15 corumjhaelen wrote:On July 10 2015 03:08 cLutZ wrote:
Ones that don't already have high tax rates and rampant tax evasion. Also ones that don't have an economy already in a depression. If they are going to do austerity, it kind of has to be on the other side of the ledger to actually reduce the deficit. The "other side of the ledger" has worked so well for them so far, can't believe they'd want to change that. They haven't done much on that side though. Government spending is still over 50% of GDP and their austerity since 2008 has relied overwhelmingly on counterproductive tax hikes. Even the IMF says so:http://m.theage.com.au/world/greece-must-now-cut-spending-says-imf-20111214-1ouxe.html
That report is out of date (its from 2011) and has since then been debunked, IMF said back in 2013 that they had miss-judged the situation in Greece and that the austerity measures had been too severe reason being that most of the losses were in the private sector and not in the public sector, second reason was that the public spending numbers were inflated since allot of its spending was due to saving the banks by buying their loans and transferring it over to the public debt sheet.
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On July 10 2015 03:35 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 03:30 Sbrubbles wrote:On July 10 2015 03:26 Alcathous wrote:
Something I have heard no one mention yet.
So what if Tsipras and the eurozone reach an agreement. Will there be another referendum? That would be extremely unlikely, don't you think? Having already done the referendum, the Tsipras government have both the wiggle room and the legitimacy to say "this new deal is too much like the previous one, we won't take it" or "this new deal is different from the previous one, we'll take it". No reason they would throw this flexibility away. How so? This makes all kind of assumptions that are hard to uphold. Would be easy to point out they selectively go for a referendum when they judge it to be in their advantage. The fact that people don't talk about it seems to indicate they assume Syriza to be as hypocritical as anyone in power. The same attitude that interpreted the referendum as a betrayal may now falsely assume there won't be any. I still think Syriza, as a radical left party, has completely different logic when it comes to politics than the mainstream. If they are consistent in their ideas, they will write out a second referendum. If they don't, then in their worldview, they admit they shouldn't have written out one the first time. They already did a referendum and the people said 'no'. How can you now assume he people support a 'yes'? The deal is likely to be similar. If we are going to assume anything, so no referendum would be needed, is that the people will vote 'no' once more.. Say Tsipras has a deal half his own party has problems with. How can he now just force it down the throats of the voters? It is not like Europe is going to offer him, and all Greeks, the magical deal they want. It is still going to a bitter deal.
I still don't see why a second referendum is necessary, and I disagree that not having a second one is admitting the shouldn't have had the first. Referendum are costly, both in financial terms and in terms of image.
And you're claiming Tsipras will force a new, similar deal down the throats of the Greeks. I would be surprised if he did that, as it would be him shooting his own foot.
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On July 10 2015 03:26 Alcathous wrote:
Something I have heard no one mention yet.
So what if Tsipras and the eurozone reach an agreement. Will there be another referendum?
That would be hilarious. A nation-wide referendum every time the Greek government wants to make a decision.
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So from what I'm hearing, Tsipras is trading the no vote for some debt relief. I guess that's a plausible endgame for his referendum, considering he now has some opposition votes on his side.
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On July 10 2015 04:23 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 03:26 Alcathous wrote:
Something I have heard no one mention yet.
So what if Tsipras and the eurozone reach an agreement. Will there be another referendum? That would be hilarious. A nation-wide referendum every time the Greek government wants to make a decision.
And then someone would realize the Greek economy cannot sustain that make referendums due to the costs of running them.
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Have a referendum on whether the public wants to be consulted expensively with more referendums in future or not.
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I think we need to have a referendum about that idea first....
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EPT
