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On July 09 2015 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Environnemental laws, Humans rights, Protection of the private life, Health, The ban of obsolescence, compatibility of devices, etc...
And competition also led to lower price.
And if by half you mean 20%, whatever. And it is obviously a direc consequence of a crisis, not of the European directives.
Hell, even 80% of Greeks people want to stay in the EZ.
I lol'ed. Are you serious? Voting laws is one thing, enforcing them is another. And from an Estonian pov maybe there are some better stuff now, but from a french/german pov (or dutch, belgium etc.)... Really? I mean gay rights in France? Feminism? Like EU helped in anything here.
Edit: yes, I answered 2 posts at once.
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On July 09 2015 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Environnemental laws, Humans rights, Protection of the private life, Health, The ban of obsolescence, compatibility of devices, etc...
And competition also led to lower price.
And if by half you mean 20%, whatever. And it is obviously a direc consequence of a crisis, not of the European directives.
Hell, even 80% of Greeks people want to stay in the EZ.
This is a joke. Environnemental laws ? Human rights ? Protection of the private life ? Health ?
All those where done by our government and our people before the EU put their nose in it. Compatibility of device is a fight for justice and dignity right ... And gay rights ? Like it's the EU that did that ?
Also, you still argue that competition is always a good thing, because thinking is unecessary.
And the french voted against the treaty in 2005 - before the crisis. So yeah, half the french population was against more europe, before the crisis (and other countries where in the same situation).
On the other hand, the european parlament just voted for the TTIP. The social democrats, who where against, decided to vote with the conservative because why not.
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On July 09 2015 17:33 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Environnemental laws, Humans rights, Protection of the private life, Health, The ban of obsolescence, compatibility of devices, etc...
And competition also led to lower price.
And if by half you mean 20%, whatever. And it is obviously a direc consequence of a crisis, not of the European directives.
Hell, even 80% of Greeks people want to stay in the EZ. This is a joke. Environnemental laws ? Human rights ? Protection of the private life ? Health ? All those where done by our government and our people before the EU put their nose in it. Compatibility of device is a fight for justice and dignity right ... And gay rights ? Like it's the EU that did that ? Also, you still argue that competition is always a good thing, because thinking is unecessary. And the french voted against the treaty in 2005 - before the crisis. So yeah, half the french population was against more europe, before the crisis (and other countries where in the same situation). On the other hand, the european parlament just voted for the TTIP. The social democrats, who where against, decided to vote with the conservative because why not.
Yeah because France is so much for the protection of the private life that they just voted for legalizing the gouvernement to listen to phone call and reading email without a judge warrant.
And what if France or Germany was already following strict Environmental laws ? We all live on the same earth, so one or two countries doing something isn't enough, it need to be done on a wider scale : That's where the EU come in play.
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Since were discussing economy at the moment and there seems to be a dismissal of common sense in the favor of more advanced economic theory here comes a rant.
We are in the beginning of a new age and old economic theory simply doesn't work anymore. In fact the less you know about it the better of you may be because then you are relying on common sense.
The proof is all around us. Every time a hotshot economy professor or institution makes predictions (Greek growth, Swedish employment, Abenomics in Japan, Chinese growth) they are shown to be wrong over time, and they are getting more and more wrong as they go.
The reason is simple of course. Like all scientific fields economy takes old data and assumes it's valid in the future. It's not anymore and therefore any predictions made with it will be false.
Our current capitalistic system is based on continuous growth combined with the theory of supply and demand. But in the age of robotics supply gets bigger and cheaper while demand gets lower when people are replaced by robots and people are either payed less to compete or are unemployed and have no salary. In practice this should mean that you have deflation because prices are pushed continuously lower and stagnation as jobs hold steady or even drop. Japan is not a failed economy, it's the matured version of future capitalism.
Now what do you do if your model requires growth but population growth can no longer sustain it because all workers are no longer needed? Well, if your indoctrinated you say it's a temporary crisis and then you loan people money to keep consuming. This is basically what happens all over the world and of course the more mismanaged a country is the higher the chance is of it becoming the canary in the mine so to speak (like Greece).
I'm just sick of economists spewing bullshit like "were going to need hundreds of thousands of workers when the people born in the 40's retire. Ooops. Well we ARE going to need hundreds of thousands of workers when the people born in the 50's retires. Oops. Well now we are definitely..."
No. Capitalism as well as it has worked needs to be modified. Because the logical path is that it eats itself alive. When owners get 100 % of the profits and consumers no longer get nothing because they are no longer employed capitalism dies because demand is non existent. And we end up with a few uber rich and the rest of us are plebs kept content with bread and digital circus.
Or we can save capitalism from itself, tax the owners and give a salary to people just for being human. Not because of any socialistic ideas but because of the fact that capitalism is the best economic system we have and for it to live on we need to create demand in order to drive progress.
I can guarantee the uber rich will make more money of that system either way because people are able to buy more stuff.
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On July 09 2015 17:51 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Or we can save capitalism from itself, tax the owners and give a salary to people just for being human. Not because of any socialistic ideas but because of the fact that capitalism is the best economic system we have and for it to live on we need to create demand in order to drive progress.
I can guarantee the uber rich will make more money of that system either way because people are able to buy more stuff.
Congrats, u've reached the quintessence of liberalism: privatize profit, socialize loss (who will pay ur minimum salary, who will get profit?).
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On July 09 2015 17:48 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 17:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Environnemental laws, Humans rights, Protection of the private life, Health, The ban of obsolescence, compatibility of devices, etc...
And competition also led to lower price.
And if by half you mean 20%, whatever. And it is obviously a direc consequence of a crisis, not of the European directives.
Hell, even 80% of Greeks people want to stay in the EZ. This is a joke. Environnemental laws ? Human rights ? Protection of the private life ? Health ? All those where done by our government and our people before the EU put their nose in it. Compatibility of device is a fight for justice and dignity right ... And gay rights ? Like it's the EU that did that ? Also, you still argue that competition is always a good thing, because thinking is unecessary. And the french voted against the treaty in 2005 - before the crisis. So yeah, half the french population was against more europe, before the crisis (and other countries where in the same situation). On the other hand, the european parlament just voted for the TTIP. The social democrats, who where against, decided to vote with the conservative because why not. Yeah because France is so much for the protection of the private life that they just voted for legalizing the gouvernement to listen to phone call and reading email without a judge warrant. And what if France or Germany was already following strict Environmental laws ? We all live on the same earth, so one or two countries doing something isn't enough, it need to be done on a wider scale : That's where the EU come in play.
And Europe results are poor in this regard : they were unable to protect a true european firm in the green energy, so much that europe now buy their solar pannel from china (because it goes against their holy grail, which is competition and consumption).
You're just talking with no concern for facts. Reality is the result of the european union are scarce, and most of the time negative in terms of environmental and economic results.
Yeah because France is so much for the protection of the private life that they just voted for legalizing the gouvernement to listen to phone call and reading email without a judge warrant.
And where's the europe to prevent us from doing this bad things and to promote human rights ?
Nowhere, because it does not do anything in this regard. Meanwhile, it's the europe that forces us to privatize most of our best firms.
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On July 09 2015 18:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 17:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2015 17:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Environnemental laws, Humans rights, Protection of the private life, Health, The ban of obsolescence, compatibility of devices, etc...
And competition also led to lower price.
And if by half you mean 20%, whatever. And it is obviously a direc consequence of a crisis, not of the European directives.
Hell, even 80% of Greeks people want to stay in the EZ. This is a joke. Environnemental laws ? Human rights ? Protection of the private life ? Health ? All those where done by our government and our people before the EU put their nose in it. Compatibility of device is a fight for justice and dignity right ... And gay rights ? Like it's the EU that did that ? Also, you still argue that competition is always a good thing, because thinking is unecessary. And the french voted against the treaty in 2005 - before the crisis. So yeah, half the french population was against more europe, before the crisis (and other countries where in the same situation). On the other hand, the european parlament just voted for the TTIP. The social democrats, who where against, decided to vote with the conservative because why not. Yeah because France is so much for the protection of the private life that they just voted for legalizing the gouvernement to listen to phone call and reading email without a judge warrant. And what if France or Germany was already following strict Environmental laws ? We all live on the same earth, so one or two countries doing something isn't enough, it need to be done on a wider scale : That's where the EU come in play. And Europe result are poor in this regard : they were unable to protect a true european firm in the green energy, so much that europe now buy their solar pannel from china. You're just talking with no concern for facts. Reality is the result of the european union are scarce, and most of the time negative in terms of environmental and economic results. Show nested quote +Yeah because France is so much for the protection of the private life that they just voted for legalizing the gouvernement to listen to phone call and reading email without a judge warrant. And where's the europe to prevent us from doing this bad thing and to promote human rights ? Nowhere, because it does not do anything in this regard.
Well, the irony is that if the EU did complain about it that France would probably go "Keep your noses out of our business! We're a sovereign country!"
Which is what France actually did when Europe repeatedly pointed out that France exceeded its budget by too much too many times.
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Upcoming elections in many countrys will be interesting.
Corporations and banks can get away with everything in the usa because the people there are blind,but not so in Europe.
People are sick of all the crap, expect crazy results in upcoming elections all over Europe.
Greece is just a start,they now try to use it as a diversion and scapegoat. We should not blame the eu,we should blame Greece. But that wont work. When the elections are there the eu will get punished all over the place.
Wonder what will happen then, the globalist movement probably wont accept it.
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On July 09 2015 18:46 Rassy wrote:
Upcoming elections in many countrys will be interesting.
Corporations and banks can get away with everything in the usa because the people there are blind,but not so in Europe.
People are sick of all the crap, expect crazy results in upcoming elections all over Europe.
Greece is just a start,they now try to use it as a diversion and scapegoat. We should not blame the eu,we should blame Greece. But that wont work. When the elections are there the eu will get punished all over the place.
Sadly here it's the FN that will benefit.
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On July 09 2015 18:41 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 18:30 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 17:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2015 17:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Environnemental laws, Humans rights, Protection of the private life, Health, The ban of obsolescence, compatibility of devices, etc...
And competition also led to lower price.
And if by half you mean 20%, whatever. And it is obviously a direc consequence of a crisis, not of the European directives.
Hell, even 80% of Greeks people want to stay in the EZ. This is a joke. Environnemental laws ? Human rights ? Protection of the private life ? Health ? All those where done by our government and our people before the EU put their nose in it. Compatibility of device is a fight for justice and dignity right ... And gay rights ? Like it's the EU that did that ? Also, you still argue that competition is always a good thing, because thinking is unecessary. And the french voted against the treaty in 2005 - before the crisis. So yeah, half the french population was against more europe, before the crisis (and other countries where in the same situation). On the other hand, the european parlament just voted for the TTIP. The social democrats, who where against, decided to vote with the conservative because why not. Yeah because France is so much for the protection of the private life that they just voted for legalizing the gouvernement to listen to phone call and reading email without a judge warrant. And what if France or Germany was already following strict Environmental laws ? We all live on the same earth, so one or two countries doing something isn't enough, it need to be done on a wider scale : That's where the EU come in play. And Europe result are poor in this regard : they were unable to protect a true european firm in the green energy, so much that europe now buy their solar pannel from china. You're just talking with no concern for facts. Reality is the result of the european union are scarce, and most of the time negative in terms of environmental and economic results. Yeah because France is so much for the protection of the private life that they just voted for legalizing the gouvernement to listen to phone call and reading email without a judge warrant. And where's the europe to prevent us from doing this bad thing and to promote human rights ? Nowhere, because it does not do anything in this regard. Well, the irony is that if the EU did complain about it that France would probably go "Keep your noses out of our business! We're a sovereign country!" Which is what France actually did when Europe repeatedly pointed out that France exceeded its budget by too much too many times.
Most of the population was against the law, a lot of associations, and a big part of the civil society, tried to prevent this law from being voted. For once europe could have supported the people, it didn't. But for the budget, which is against the people, they don't care about sovereignty and they actually believe a bunch of technocrats can say how a country will spend its money.
Not to mention you lose all credibility when you don't care about deficit during growth time.
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Greece is preparing a reform package worth 12 billion euros ($13.33 billion) over two years, more than previously planned, in an effort to offset a return to recession after months of negotiations with creditors, the Greek newspaper Kathimerini reported.
The left-wing government of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras faces a Friday deadline to submit a reform-for-aid proposal that its European partners, if satisfied, would endorse on Sunday, averting a potential Greek exit from Europe's single currency.
The report said that instead of growing by 0.5 percent this year, months of uncertainty and almost two weeks of capital controls meant "there are estimates of a recession of about 3 percent."
"It is estimated that the measures of 8 billion euros that Greece had presented for 2015 and 2016 will have to be increased by 2 billion euros per year, raising the total to 12 billion euros for the two years," Kathimerini reported.
Greece emerged last year from a deep recession that shrank its gross domestic product by a quarter over a six-year period, leaving a quarter of the workforce unemployed.
A second newspaper, Naftemporiki, detailed what it said were proposed tax hikes to find the money - an increase in corporate tax to 28 percent from 26 percent; a rise in VAT on luxury goods from to 13 from 10 percent; a rise in VAT on processed foods, restaurants, transport and some health services offered by the private sector to 23 from 13 percent; a VAT hike on hotels to 13 percent from 6.5 percent.
The report said Greek islands would continue to enjoy tax breaks that creditors had sought to scrap. Naftemporiki said the entire package would be worth 10 billion to 12 billion euros.
Such measures may face resistance from the hard-left wing of Tsipras' Syriza party and from his junior coalition partner, the Independent Greeks, after the government campaigned for a resounding 'No' to more austerity in a referendum on July 5.
source
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On July 09 2015 18:46 Rassy wrote:
Upcoming elections in many countrys will be interesting.
Corporations and banks can get away with everything in the usa because the people there are blind,but not so in Europe.
People are sick of all the crap, expect crazy results in upcoming elections all over Europe.
Greece is just a start,they now try to use it as a diversion and scapegoat. We should not blame the eu,we should blame Greece. But that wont work. When the elections are there the eu will get punished all over the place.
The result in last year's election in Belgium was indeed crazy, but in so far that a right-of-center coalition got elected instead of left-of-center parties. The same happened in the UK, and in the Netherlands as well, if I'm not mistaken. Even in France it seems increasingly likely that Sarkozy's UMP will win the next elections.
So far this tendency to vote for populist left-of-centre parties seems limited to Greece, Italy, Spain (and Ireland?).
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On July 09 2015 19:04 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 18:46 Rassy wrote:
Upcoming elections in many countrys will be interesting.
Corporations and banks can get away with everything in the usa because the people there are blind,but not so in Europe.
People are sick of all the crap, expect crazy results in upcoming elections all over Europe.
Greece is just a start,they now try to use it as a diversion and scapegoat. We should not blame the eu,we should blame Greece. But that wont work. When the elections are there the eu will get punished all over the place. The result in last year's election in Belgium was indeed crazy, but in so far that a right-of-center coalition got elected instead of left-of-center parties. The same happened in the UK, and in the Netherlands as well, if I'm not mistaken. Even in France it seems increasingly likely that Sarkozy's UMP will win the next elections. So far this tendency to vote for populist left-of-centre parties seems limited to Greece, Italy, Spain (and Ireland?).
We have a coalition of conservatives + labour. We had a right minority government supported by the PVV before that.
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On July 09 2015 19:11 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 19:04 maartendq wrote:On July 09 2015 18:46 Rassy wrote:
Upcoming elections in many countrys will be interesting.
Corporations and banks can get away with everything in the usa because the people there are blind,but not so in Europe.
People are sick of all the crap, expect crazy results in upcoming elections all over Europe.
Greece is just a start,they now try to use it as a diversion and scapegoat. We should not blame the eu,we should blame Greece. But that wont work. When the elections are there the eu will get punished all over the place. The result in last year's election in Belgium was indeed crazy, but in so far that a right-of-center coalition got elected instead of left-of-center parties. The same happened in the UK, and in the Netherlands as well, if I'm not mistaken. Even in France it seems increasingly likely that Sarkozy's UMP will win the next elections. So far this tendency to vote for populist left-of-centre parties seems limited to Greece, Italy, Spain (and Ireland?). We have a coalition of conservatives + labour. We had a right minority government supported by the PVV before that.
But if I'm not mistaken it's the VVD calling the shots and PVDA acting like champagne socialists right now? It's staggering how much the Dutch labour market has been liberalised the past few years.
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No not really, both parties have had some big wins, it's just that the PVDA has a harder time to claim their victories and show off. It's more a propaganda issue than anything.. They also only have majority in one of the 2 chambers so they still have to negotiate with other parties to get everything trough parliament.
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On July 09 2015 19:23 RvB wrote:
No not really, both parties have had some big wins, it's just that the PVDA has a harder time to claim their victories and show off. It's more a propaganda issue than anything.. They also only have majority in one of the 2 chambers so they still have to negotiate with other parties to get everything trough parliament.
Interesting. Thanks for the info. The only stuff I read about Dutch government is in De Correspondent, and their journalists tend to automatically villify anything that VVD touches, and make it sound that it is VVD calling all the shots and that PVDA is just there for show.
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On July 09 2015 19:04 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 18:46 Rassy wrote:
Upcoming elections in many countrys will be interesting.
Corporations and banks can get away with everything in the usa because the people there are blind,but not so in Europe.
People are sick of all the crap, expect crazy results in upcoming elections all over Europe.
Greece is just a start,they now try to use it as a diversion and scapegoat. We should not blame the eu,we should blame Greece. But that wont work. When the elections are there the eu will get punished all over the place. The result in last year's election in Belgium was indeed crazy, but in so far that a right-of-center coalition got elected instead of left-of-center parties. The same happened in the UK, and in the Netherlands as well, if I'm not mistaken. Even in France it seems increasingly likely that Sarkozy's UMP will win the next elections. So far this tendency to vote for populist left-of-centre parties seems limited to Greece, Italy, Spain (and Ireland?).
In Germany the conservative CDU under Merkel is gaining popularity while the crisis takes place. Merkel and Schäuble are praised for their hard line against Greece.
From reading the other comments, we might be on a course of a split to North and South.
But it is kind of funny that the poorer countries leaning left, while the richer countries leaning right.
Somehow this reminds me of a line from "The West Wing", where a military guy said sth along the lines of "it is funny with you guys, the republicans want to spend loads on military and dont want to send them anywhere, and you guys (democrats) want to send them everywhere, but dont want to spend anything.
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^it has always been like that (left poor, right rich) since WW2, there is no reason for the rich lean more to left unless all of then turned into hipster overnight basically lol.
For Greece, on a personal level a couple of Greek guys I know are pure sleazy arrogant dickheads (they don't even look good, with some horrible beard but act like they are some popstars) so I don't care much about them in big trouble. I'm just surprised that Germany agreed to pour so much money in this as I admire the working principle of German in generally.
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On July 09 2015 18:53 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 18:41 maartendq wrote:On July 09 2015 18:30 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 17:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 09 2015 17:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 09 2015 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Environnemental laws, Humans rights, Protection of the private life, Health, The ban of obsolescence, compatibility of devices, etc...
And competition also led to lower price.
And if by half you mean 20%, whatever. And it is obviously a direc consequence of a crisis, not of the European directives.
Hell, even 80% of Greeks people want to stay in the EZ. This is a joke. Environnemental laws ? Human rights ? Protection of the private life ? Health ? All those where done by our government and our people before the EU put their nose in it. Compatibility of device is a fight for justice and dignity right ... And gay rights ? Like it's the EU that did that ? Also, you still argue that competition is always a good thing, because thinking is unecessary. And the french voted against the treaty in 2005 - before the crisis. So yeah, half the french population was against more europe, before the crisis (and other countries where in the same situation). On the other hand, the european parlament just voted for the TTIP. The social democrats, who where against, decided to vote with the conservative because why not. Yeah because France is so much for the protection of the private life that they just voted for legalizing the gouvernement to listen to phone call and reading email without a judge warrant. And what if France or Germany was already following strict Environmental laws ? We all live on the same earth, so one or two countries doing something isn't enough, it need to be done on a wider scale : That's where the EU come in play. And Europe result are poor in this regard : they were unable to protect a true european firm in the green energy, so much that europe now buy their solar pannel from china. You're just talking with no concern for facts. Reality is the result of the european union are scarce, and most of the time negative in terms of environmental and economic results. Yeah because France is so much for the protection of the private life that they just voted for legalizing the gouvernement to listen to phone call and reading email without a judge warrant. And where's the europe to prevent us from doing this bad thing and to promote human rights ? Nowhere, because it does not do anything in this regard. Well, the irony is that if the EU did complain about it that France would probably go "Keep your noses out of our business! We're a sovereign country!" Which is what France actually did when Europe repeatedly pointed out that France exceeded its budget by too much too many times. Most of the population was against the law, a lot of associations, and a big part of the civil society, tried to prevent this law from being voted. For once europe could have supported the people, it didn't. But for the budget, which is against the people, they don't care about sovereignty and they actually believe a bunch of technocrats can say how a country will spend its money. Not to mention you lose all credibility when you don't care about deficit during growth time.
Well the thing is, it is not their money they wanna spend in Greece. Try to hold a referendum in Germany to stop the austerity in Greece.
The only way I see keeping Greece in the EURO, is binding hard reforms for the next say 5 years, while erasing say like 1/3 of the debt. Tsipras maybe can spin this as a success in Greece and the EU knows that Greece will not pay back the debt anyways.
But even that will be very hard to sell to the german parliament.
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On July 09 2015 18:46 Rassy wrote:
Upcoming elections in many countrys will be interesting.
Corporations and banks can get away with everything in the usa because the people there are blind,but not so in Europe.
People are sick of all the crap, expect crazy results in upcoming elections all over Europe.
Greece is just a start,they now try to use it as a diversion and scapegoat. We should not blame the eu,we should blame Greece. But that wont work. When the elections are there the eu will get punished all over the place.
Wonder what will happen then, the globalist movement probably wont accept it.
I still think EU is Europe only hope. International corporations and uber rich are to powerful for individual countries, that is why they don't pay taxes and don't have to take any hits in a crisis.
But the EU *could* tax capital in a way smaller countries can't because they have the size to see it moving and to force people to play ball. Don't want to pay taxes on transactions, stocks and capital? Fine, don't do business in EU. It's way to big of a market to ignore.
Let EU tax transactions as the first thing just like they take tolls today. Use to money as incentives (carrots are nicer than sticks) to get countries to do the necessary reforms needed until Europe is a more uniform place economically. Over time national taxation will grow less important as less people work and then EU can step in and give national governments (or the people directly if we are ready for that, it's the ultimate equalizer) money instead.
But I fear for Sweden if we think we can stand up to big capital ourselves, we saw how that went in the 90's.
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EPT
