EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 180
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zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 09 2015 20:16 BurningSera wrote: ^it has always been like that (left poor, right rich) since WW2, there is no reason for the rich lean more to left unless all of then turned into hipster overnight basically lol. That's actually a common misconception : the poor are not always voting left. In fact, a big part of the poorest usually vote right. There's even a famous french book talking about this called "Pourquoi les pauvres votent à droite ?" (Why the poor vote right ?). The poor are usually more conservative and see the "ideology of progress" that define "the left" with a distant and rather suspicious eye. Personally, I don't see any differences between the right and the left anymore : the left is not defending the collective but promoting individuals, and the right is not conservative but liberal. On July 09 2015 20:45 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I still think EU is Europe only hope. International corporations and uber rich are to powerful for individual countries, that is why they don't pay taxes and don't have to take any hits in a crisis. But the EU *could* tax capital in a way smaller countries can't because they have the size to see it moving and to force people to play ball. Don't want to pay taxes on transactions, stocks and capital? Fine, don't do business in EU. It's way to big of a market to ignore. Let EU tax transactions as the first thing just like they take tolls today. Use to money as incentives (carrots are nicer than sticks) to get countries to do the necessary reforms needed until Europe is a more uniform place economically. Over time national taxation will grow less important as less people work and then EU can step in and give national governments (or the people directly if we are ready for that, it's the ultimate equalizer) money instead. But I fear for Sweden if we think we can stand up to big capital ourselves, we saw how that went in the 90's. That's wishful thinking. There's no way that our current Europe is going to vote for a tax on transactions and it will never impliment a tax on capital - especially with countries such as Luxembourg or the UK pulling the strings. Just to put things in perspective, it's the europeans that, in the TTIP, are pushing the US into removing control on finance (and not the other way around). If a tax on capital is indeed voted and implemented, it will be in the US and not in Europe. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
or is most of it just lel Le Pen is spewing random shit again lets make a news story out of it. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 09 2015 22:31 Kipsate wrote: Slightly OT but how big is FN actually? Does the media make them bigger then they are?(probably, but by how much), do they have enough support to influence policies within France in upcoming years? or is most of it just lel Le Pen is spewing random shit again lets make a news story out of it. The FN, after the last european election, claimed it was the biggest party in France. It's not far from the truth, they have between 20 and 25% of the voters every elections (a little more than the Socialist Party, currently in power, and maybe a little less than the Republicans who are the main force in the right). The problem is that they have no way to win elections yet because in the second turn of elections a big part of the people that vote for the other smaller parties in the first turn usually refuse to vote for them : so they are oftentime stuck at 30 to 45% in local election facing a candidate, either from the right or from the left, that collect the vote of all the people that refuse to vote for the FN. The people that are targetted by the FN are also usually more prone to non voting - young and not old, poor more than rich. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
 But yeah, a significant part of the poor do vote right here. Chalk it down to "traditional values" and such. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 09 2015 22:31 Kipsate wrote: Slightly OT but how big is FN actually? Does the media make them bigger then they are?(probably, but by how much), do they have enough support to influence policies within France in upcoming years? or is most of it just lel Le Pen is spewing random shit again lets make a news story out of it. If you take each party individually and weight each one in number of vote, during the Departementals elections : The FN is the biggest party with over 5M votes (22,30%) You then have the PS at 16,06% and the UMP with 8,64% BUT, you have to look at it in a different way too. In total, The Right won with 45,03% The Left got 32,12% and the exterm Right got 22,30% The FN got almost no seat in any department, only 62 when the right got 2418 and the left 1592. So yeah, The FN is a big party but still a little influance overall. So even if 25% of people vote for the FN, the rest prefer voting for a different wing than letting the FN getting any seat. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 09 2015 22:49 Faust852 wrote: If you take each party individually and weight each one in number of vote, during the Departementals elections : The FN is the biggest party with over 5M votes (22,30%) You then have the PS at 16,06% and the UMP with 8,64% BUT, you have to look at it in a different way too. In total, The Right won with 45,03% The Left got 32,12% and the exterm Right got 22,30% The FN got almost no seat in any department, only 62 when the right got 2418 and the left 1592. So yeah, The FN is a big party but still a little influance overall. So even if 25% of people vote for the FN, the rest prefer voting for a different wing than letting the FN getting any seat. Don't forget we have 40 % abstention. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10986 Posts
On July 09 2015 22:46 ticklishmusic wrote: You Europeans are lucky. Most of your mainstream right wing parties are still more progressive/liberal/than the Democratic party in the US. But yeah, a significant part of the poor do vote right here. Chalk it down to "traditional values" and such. That depends exremly on the topic tho. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6326 Posts
And the country. Europe is incredibly diverse in everything. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 09 2015 23:33 RvB wrote: And the country. Europe is incredibly diverse in everything. Agreed. But the exposure to most EU conservatives that Americans get makes them seem like a rational, logical people compared to ours. I listened to one on the BBC form the UK talking about helping the refugees from Syria. Our US conservatives would be all about leaving them in the ocean and asking why the government should even be involved. Or talk about defunding the coast guard. The grass is always greener. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On July 09 2015 22:09 WhiteDog wrote: That's actually a common misconception : the poor are not always voting left. In fact, a big part of the poorest usually vote right. There's even a famous french book talking about this called "Pourquoi les pauvres votent à droite ?" (Why the poor vote right ?). The poor are usually more conservative and see the "ideology of progress" that define "the left" with a distant and rather suspicious eye. Personally, I don't see any differences between the right and the left anymore : the left is not defending the collective but promoting individuals, and the right is not conservative but liberal. I didn't say the poor voted for left or right, I meant that the 'poor' countries are usually associated with a left government, is that not a fair statement? (I genuinely wonder about that really) the people of the poor countries have no or minimal power to govern their countries really, while the rich/powerful people at the top would do their best to maintain their status/asset/income so they are doing right wing stuffs regardless if they appear to have left wing policies for their people But ya it is really not much of distinct differences between left or right anymore, especially in social or economical aspects | ||
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zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
http://www.thelocal.de/20150708/a-century-on-germany-speaks-of-genocide-in-namibia While this is great, it really should have been the president, instead of the president of parliament, to give this statement. But it is definitely progress in a process that to me is moving at an unacceptably slow pace. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On July 09 2015 22:31 Kipsate wrote: Slightly OT but how big is FN actually? Does the media make them bigger then they are?(probably, but by how much), do they have enough support to influence policies within France in upcoming years? or is most of it just lel Le Pen is spewing random shit again lets make a news story out of it. Marine Le Pen's access to the media certainly played a role in her success. If you take a look at the last legislative elections in 2012, however, you'll see that the FN received 3,528,373 votes in the first round, while the PS (left) received 7,617,996 and the UMP (right) 7,037,471. Likewise, at the 2012 presidential election, Marine Le Pen received 6,421,426 votes in the first round, while Hollande received 10,272,705 and Sarkozy 9,753,629. The first round is typically when "traditional", PS & UMP candidates see some of the votes which would go to them scattered among smaller candidates of the left and the right. In those elections, the PS (left) and UMP/Les républicains (right) were therefore still clearly in front of the FN. The numbers given by a previous poster were about the departmental elections, which are often used by some to cast protest votes against the ruling majority. The numbers given were also a bit misleading, since the poster did not include the votes cast for "left union" and "right union" pairs of candidates (he did in the second part of his post, but many should still be linked to the main parties), which largely correspond to votes notably given to PS and UMP candidates (running together with someone from another party). As you can see here, taking those into account puts both the PS and the UMP/Les républicains ahead of the FN. TL;DR: the FN does manage to receive far too many votes, and is not far behind the two main parties, but it can't really be seen as the most important French party, at least for now. Another problem, however, is that their actual success has been to influence the main parties on topics like immigration, pulling them further to the right and towards more repressive discourses and policies. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On July 09 2015 23:59 BurningSera wrote: But ya it is really not much of distinct differences between left or right anymore, especially in social or economical aspects I have to strongly disagree with the definitions you're both using. It's not that the left has necessarily changed so much, it's that many previously "left" parties, namely the major parties in many countries that are labelled as being the more "left" option, are simply not left any more. Labor in Australia (especially the current gits), Labour in the UK (although Miliband was a lot closer than Blair, Brown & whichever likely future candidate), Social Democrats in Germany and Socialists in France, Labour in Netherlands from what I gather and probably many others have all become centre-right at best, but with some truly left apparent attitudes/speeches and occasionally policies thrown in here and there. Compared to their alternatives they're usually "left" but they're mostly on the right. In other words, the parties moved away from left but that doesn't mean the left is different. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
After years of dire predictions, Spain is now expected to be the developed world’s biggest job creator this year and the next, while its economy will grow faster than most in 2015. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says that Spain will see a 2.9% rise in the number of available jobs this year, and 2.8% the next. After years of job destruction due to the protracted economic crisis that began in 2008, Spain now seems set to bring its soaring unemployment below the 20% mark by the end of next year. The OECD's Employment Outlook 2015 report is positing a figure of 19.7% in the fourth quarter of 2016, although the average annual rate for next year will still be above 20%, a threshold that was reached in 2010, then amply surpassed. src | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On July 10 2015 02:04 Faust852 wrote: Looks like the austerity mesure in Spain are finally showing : src Success! | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Yeah ! After five years they will go below 20 % employment according to OECD's predictions (that are always right! right ?)... success ?!? | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On July 09 2015 22:01 zatic wrote: A remarkable prophetic article from 4 years ago: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v33/n14/john-lanchester/once-greece-goes that was a great read, thanks Edit: "This, if you think about it from a broad historical perspective, is quite a reversal. During the 20th century, the greatest danger to European stability was Germany’s sense of its special destiny. During the 21st century, the greatest danger to European stability is Germany’s reluctance to accept its special destiny." nice. curious though, having read this, do you think German citizens should just pony up and bail out their less fortunate neighbors? | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
It really speaks for itself just how bad things are in Europe when something like this is considered 'Great News'. EDIT: And even the entire premise of the article is faulty, the reason for Spains improvement is due to France easing up on austerity earlier this year when they decided to start deficit politics once again by taking on more loans to boost investments in France which naturally lead to higher imports which Spain always have been one of the main exporters. It's through France increased demand of import from Spain that has lead to less unemployment, | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 10 2015 02:40 Integra wrote: It really speaks for itself just how bad things are in Europe when something like this is considered 'Great News'. WOOOOOOOO things are not getting worse at an alarming pace! 10 more years and we should be out of this! | ||
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